Tom Campbell

[personalreality]

LE GASP! 

right?!

i'm shocked too.

[Ricochet]

Thanks guys for a great discussion.

There's something to consider and that is the mind and body have different motivations but are linked. The body is the expression of life itself and is truth in motion. The mind cannot be that truth. If it stands still to be in unison with the body, it ceases to observe, therefore ceasing to be, and the body cannot function without the mind. I think the body is the feel good part of love. The body's function is to survive and procreate, it has no good or bad or selflessness, it is life itself. It is physical and in that sense, It is immortal, as long as there is a physical universe. There is no death for it, just change.

Bluebird, I'm not sure I understand your thought, maybe too deep for me!  I've been listening to an interesting podcast recently and I found it on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKXxg3tuCbI  Fascinating discussion of the material/consciousness issue from a little different perspective.

[Bluebird]

Yea, I knew I was probably going to mis-communicate my ideas.

I will only ever be WHAT I AM now

That's a cop-out and I get the feeling you know it.

I think you misunderstood me.
The "now" I am talking about is the "now" in the future. So whatever you become, you will be that in the future "now". Growing spiritually, becoming better or worse, is only relative to what you are in the present moment. And the present moment is always. This is the state of conflict the mind is always in. Wanting to be something it is not.
That's all I was trying to say. I am feeling this conflict more and more. I'm becoming more aware of it. I'm accepting what the mind really is and spending a lot less energy trying to change it.

In fact, that why I shifted my focus away from meditation and the search for enlightenment, to exploring dreams and the astral plane. Enlightenment is not of the mind and therefore unattainable, because we are the mind. In other words there is no hope for us. This is not a bad thing if accepted. Yes there are a few in history that gained the state of truly existing in the moment, but I believe that is more a freak of nature type of thing, rather that an obtainable goal for 99.9% of humanity.
Believe me, I was brought up by hippies, been to India, lived at a yoga retreat center for years etc. I have lived with people who have meditated for 20+ years living the most holistic lifestyle, and they were not any happier or more at peace than friends I had who had no spiritual aspirations at all.
I'm not saying meditation is worthless. It will definitely help you to feel better and regulate your emotions, but so will jogging.

I'm a little disappointed in myself for thinking I knew the answer for so long, and therefore felt a bit superior to people of more traditional religions. I knew that we are all one, as I was going to meditate my way to the unity of the universe and transcend this measly little world and escape all the pain and feel the bliss of cosmic consciousness and blah blah blah. Hope is all I had. The exact same hope the Christian has to go to heaven and hang with Jesus.

My point is the mind is the mind is the mind. There's no way out. What I like about astral projection is it is a form of mind training like judo, magic, painting, sports etc. Although it can be perceived as a spiritual practice the goals are very worldly. Pleasure, excitement, discovery. But like Frank says, you are who you are in the astral. You don't become some higher better being.

Which leads me back to, I am who I am... and will ever be.

Lol, but the best thing is, I'm pretty sure I have no idea what is really happening here. And I'm ok with that.

[Bluebird]

Thanks guys for a great discussion.

Bluebird, I'm not sure I understand your thought, maybe too deep for me!  

Not too deep, too obvious I think, and I'm not explaining it right.

I'm trying to say the body is a momentary entity while the mind exists in the past and future. Truth is whatever the moment presents. Everything else is speculation. The mind can only speculate, judge, observe. That's what I mean by the body is an expression of life. Like a rock, a tree, water...anything physical is life happening, the mind is just the witness. There is no selflessness or selfishness in the moment, everything just is. The mind will act selflessly or selfishly if it thinks it will ultimately experience less pain or more pleasure. There's no other reason for the mind to do anything in relation to the body. The body itself doesn't experience pleasure or pain. it just has sensory impulses. The mind translates these impulses and judges them as pleasurable or painful. The mind can, an has, learned to experience pain as pleasure and the other way around.

So does it even matter if you do something selflessly or selfishly? In order to maintain our body vessels for our minds to ride in, I think there has to be a balance between the two but ultimately every human action is selfish. But maybe something was done selfishly but ended up having consequences for humanity that were beneficial? what is it then? Again all this is mind based. It is not truth.
And I'm sure there are all kinds of contradictions in what I just said.

OMG I'm probably starting to sound crazy now. You know your crazy when... the people on an astral projection forum think your crazy!

[Xanth]

Yea, I knew I was probably going to mis-communicate my ideas.

I think you misunderstood me.
The "now" I am talking about is the "now" in the future. So whatever you become, you will be that in the future "now". Growing spiritually, becoming better or worse, is only relative to what you are in the present moment. And the present moment is always. This is the state of conflict the mind is always in. Wanting to be something it is not.
That's all I was trying to say. I am feeling this conflict more and more. I'm becoming more aware of it. I'm accepting what the mind really is and spending a lot less energy trying to change it.

Your overthinking of this is going to drive you insane.

As much as you're consciousness... you're a consciousness who is playing the part of a physical human being caught in the web of time within this physical reality.
You're stuck on the concept of "time" as it relates non-physically to you.  That's what you can't seem to wrap your head around... what you are "now" is different from what you'll be in a second from now, or a minute from now, or a year... you're NEVER the same.

The only state of conflict is the one you've created for yourself.  Step back and you'll see it.  Then take a step back again and just accept "you are" and move on.  Any further consideration of it, as I said before, will drive you insane.  Unless you're going for that, then by all means, go nuts. 

[Bluebird]

I think we are talking about two different states. Yes, the physical is always changing. But the non-physical is not within time. Your soul, spirit, essence, or whatever is non physical and therefore eternal and never changing because there is no time too change in. Don't you feel like, the you, the inner you when you were a teenager is the same inner you as it is now? Is the same inner you as in a dream? Yes life circumstances have changed, you have changed physically and mentally (knowledge wise), but the core, who you really are, is constant. Ultimately you are a personality or you are not. You are part of the experiential duality or you are not.

I'm not trying to tell or teach anyone anything, just sharing what I've been experiencing and discovering about myself lately. I've been discovering my changeless self, which I feel is giving me more sanity...I worry less about my mortality.

[Xanth]

Nope.  Me "now" is completely and utterly different from the me "then". 

The "core" of who you are *IS* what changes.  That's what spiritually grows.  Spirituality has nothing to do with the "physical" or the "mental".
The physical "you", which you are right now (aka: the meat body you see in the mirror) DOES NOT go with you when you pass on from this reality. 
The only thing that moves on is that "core".  THAT is what grows, that is what you're here to effect change within.

Take a look around: everything you see, feel, know (physically speaking) disappears into nothingness when you die.  It's all part and parcel part of this reality.  It was all created when you were born INTO this reality.  The intangible parts of you, the parts we have a hard time describing (the non-physical parts), that is what goes with you.  Essentially, the Love... what you've learned on the level beyond everything physical.  Yes, it's outside of this physical reality, but that doesn't mean it's outside of time.  Time exists in more than just this reality.  Time is what effects change.  Without time there is no change. 

You've entirely missed the point of the journey.

[Bluebird]

You've entirely missed the point of the journey.

Lol, That's pretty presumptuous don't you think? Could it be possible that what I'm trying to say, might be something you will come to know as your journey progresses?

[Szaxx]

Who you are changes in the physical world. You're not the same as you were 40 years previously.
Your NP personality is different from your physical one. We are ever changing due to the physics of the environment we percieve ourselves in. You'll understand far more later in life, I've 50+ years of NP explorations to add to the deduction. The core you is the same as its the concious self. How it reacts to the environment its in seems fairly rigid if you compare all your experiences. Each environment has its limitations and some have no form, they're a state of mind in essence. These in particular are that pleasant you don't want to wake up back in the physical.
As you're starting to see a little of the whole, you could liken it to having a lamp that lights up your surroundings. It can't light up distant objects but you can form a map of sorts. It'll only be in two dimensions though. The NP is far more complicated as its all and nothing simultaneously.
No form, no time and a connection to everything is impossible to describe.
You as a singular concious person doesn't exist too if you manage to connect to the whole. It's a totally new ball game and seems rare to experience.

[Ricochet]

Szaxx:

If you care to answer: based on your experiences/map, what do you expect to happen when you cross over? Is it advisable to expect something?

From what I have managed to cobble together, the "generic" view is that reincarnation is not linear and our separate personality experiences it relatively few times, unlike what Campbell says. Rather, it is the Higher Self that sends out more "copies" of itself. After we die, we move on and evolve through many more dimensions and eventually merge in some way with the God/Source. I can see with this the necessity of growing out of belief systems and the possibility of personal hells as we work through what we have experienced in this life.

I understand that is probably the "childs version" but is it in any way accurate?

[Bluebird]

Who you are changes in the physical world. You're not the same as you were 40 years previously.

Yes, this is of course is what I have experienced.

The core you is the same as its the conscious self. How it reacts to the environment its in seems fairly rigid if you compare all your experiences.

I think this is what I'm trying to communicate. This is what I meant when I said "the teenage you is the same as the you now". Not in the physical or experiential sense, but in the core sense.

No form, no time and a connection to everything is impossible to describe.
You as a singular conscious person doesn't exist too if you manage to connect to the whole. It's a totally new ball game and seems rare to experience.

Yes! and what I am starting to understand and feel, is that piece of the whole that is within me and constant. That is what I mean when I said "Ultimately you are a personality or you are not. You are part of the experiential duality or you are not."

Thanks Szaxx, I have a hard time explaining things sometimes. Its just exciting for me to realize the eternal nature of my core. Letting the physical or NP circumstances dance around me. Bathing in change and experience but being rooted in the whole and eternal.

So with this in mind, I don't need to know the answer to to the question that Ricochet is asking. Of course I would like to know if there was a definitive answer! But its less important to me knowing all experiences and states of existence circle around the unchanging, eternal core that we all are. The individual personality and sense of self IS the changing and experiencing. The core is the one constant.

[Ricochet]

So with this in mind, I don't need to know the answer to to the question that Ricochet is asking.

But Ricochet needs to know!

[theswearjar]

For me ive come to realize that the true self is unchangable. But most people indentify themselfs by the things that change i.e. Body thoughts emotions beliefs and habits. And since things that change cant be real or truth .all of manifested creation is realized as just a delusion and the true self is realized as the no-thing behind all manifestation, thats ever blissful  omniscient omnipotent and wisdom its self. i like mbt but i think he makes life seem a bit to mechanical n not enough beauty.

When one realizes himself as the no-thing  that contains all things including desires and emotions you realize that there cant be any desire or experience that you havnt fufilled its only the ego/mind that desires things but will never be satisfied  because thers nothing in creation that could make you eternaly blissful and satisfied , only the discovery of the true self will do that

Our true self is made in the image of god or watever you want to call it. But through ignorance weve triked ourselfs into thinking we are the limited bodys and personalitys. Its only through introspection and effort to change ourselfs and live from truth love and wisdom  , that we can clear away the dirt from the window of our soul and start to shine the light of our true divine self through and inspire others to do the same

A normal man can help many , but a man who reforms himself will reform millions

[Xanth]

I can only share from my own experience, but the CORE of who I am is nothing like the CORE of who was I was even 5 years ago (to a much lesser degree, even YESTERDAY).  I'm not talking physical me... I'm talking strictly about the non-physical me, although through that core, my physical HAS changed completely as well.

Ever since my early to mid teen years I've had a sense that I wasn't going to make it out of my 30's alive (I'm 36 right now, so I'm doing pretty good so far).  I was positive that I'd be dead by now, but I eventually came to realize what that feeling was... it wasn't a physical death at all, it was a spiritual death and rebirth.  It was a complete change of who I was not on a physical level but beyond that (the "core" me) and I completely feel it now when I compare myself now to that older me.

So you can see that at no point can I ever think that the core of us is the same... that core change is the very reason for why we're here in the first place.  It's in one state when you're born into this reality and when you leave, through the choices and the Intent behind those choices, hopefully it's different in a positive sense. 

[Bluebird]

And your experience is just as valid as mine. But we are looking at things differently. You can see a progression and development, I can not.

What is your ultimate outcome? What are you changing into? When you say "hopefully it's different in a positive sense." What does "positive" even mean? Are you moving forward? To where?

You seem to think you are becoming something. I'm saying you are already everything you want to become. But in order to experience anything, you have to forget your everything. So I guess your changing, is really remembering.

And if you finally remember who you really are, like Szaxx said...

You as a singular conscious person doesn't exist too if you manage to connect to the whole. It's a totally new ball game and seems rare to experience.

So a movement forward would actually be a movement towards the annihilation of the individual you. Experience ends. Duality ends.

Kind of a bummer...and that's why we all (the individual you's) continue to play the game of "getting" somewhere. But the "getting" is all we do because there's nowhere to go.

[Bluebird]

But Ricochet needs to know!

I'm sorry Ricochet! I didn't mean to hijack your question. I hope Szaxx gives you an answer.
But I wonder, if he confirms everything you thought. Would you stop questioning it?

[Xanth]

And your experience is just as valid as mine. But we are looking at things differently. You can see a progression and development, I can not.

What is your ultimate outcome? What are you changing into? When you say "hopefully it's different in a positive sense." What does "positive" even mean? Are you moving forward? To where?

You seem to think you are becoming something. I'm saying you are already everything you want to become. But in order to experience anything, you have to forget your everything. So I guess your changing, is really remembering.

And if you finally remember who you really are, like Szaxx said...
So a movement forward would actually be a movement towards the annihilation of the individual you. Experience ends. Duality ends.

Ahhhhhhhh, I think I understand what you mean now.

Correct me if I'm wrong (it happens a lot LoL), but it seems to me that you're trying to say that our consciousness is already in a perfect state before coming here... it becomes (maybe that's the wrong word too) "imperfect" upon being born here... and then regardless what happens, the moment you return to "there" (aka: you physically die), you become that perfect state again.  So what you're saying is that the core you is always what it is and the physical you just needs to realize it?

Yes, it's a sense of "becoming" (moving "forward" towards) something more than you are in terms of "Love" (not to be confused for the emotion "love" - they're completely separate concepts).  We humans don't really have a word or a description for it, so we have to use our imperfect language to do this - and that's where the massive confusion comes in.  Hence why you get a lot of "hippie" terms such as "moving towards Love" or "becoming Love". 

One could say that "enlightenment" is the process by which you realize that you already are "Love" and you just have to learn to get your consciousness out of the way of that process.  Which is, in a nutshell, what I think you're getting at.  Adyashanti calls the active part of that concept as "allowing everything to be as it is". 

Kind of a bummer...and that's why we all (the individual you's) continue to play the game of "getting" somewhere. But the "getting" is all we do because there's nowhere to go.

It's not really a bummer... it is simply what it is.  The way I see it, when you physically die here... as I said before, the physical you and everything physical about you ceases to exist.  Whatever happens to what remains after all that physicalness is stripped away... well then, I guess that's the real big question.  It's not really one I worry about though. 

[Ricochet]

But I wonder, if he confirms everything you thought. Would you stop questioning it?

No. But it would be one more puzzle piece than I have now.

[Bluebird]

Correct me if I'm wrong (it happens a lot LoL), but it seems to me that you're trying to say that our consciousness is already in a perfect state before coming here... it becomes (maybe that's the wrong word too) "imperfect" upon being born here... and then regardless what happens, the moment you return to "there" (aka: you physically die), you become that perfect state again.  So what you're saying is that the core you is always what it is and the physical you just needs to realize it?

Kind of, and I'm not trying to be difficult, but "consciousness" or being "aware" is imperfection. Your state of existence, be it physical or non-physical doesn't really matter. Being able to experience anything (physical or non-physical) is a disconnect from the changeless core. Its a denial of it.

Yes, it's a sense of "becoming" (moving "forward" towards) something more than you are in terms of "Love" (not to be confused for the emotion "love" - they're completely separate concepts).  We humans don't really have a word or a description for it, so we have to use our imperfect language to do this - and that's where the massive confusion comes in.  Hence why you get a lot of "hippie" terms such as "moving towards Love" or "becoming Love".

But there really is no difference between the ultimate perfect love we humans can't describe and the emotional hippie love. As an experiential individual, that is just a judgment based on your experience. In the unchanging eternity, there are no levels of love to judge. It is all. There is no better or worse or movement towards anything.

So there is no difference between the the murderer and the saint. And again, there's no where to go, nothing to advance to, nothing to transform into.
Going, advancing, transforming as actions are what this life is about, we can agree on that, but it doesn't matter which direction you do any of those things in.

One could say that "enlightenment" is the process by which you realize that you already are "Love" and you just have to learn to get your consciousness out of the way of that process.  Which is, in a nutshell, what I think you're getting at.  Adyashanti calls the active part of that concept as "allowing everything to be as it is".

Yes, and that is what is sold to everyone in the new-age spiritual marketplace. Its what is sold as an alternative to the old-age religious product. But its the same thing, just a fancier way of saying it. "There's something better... In the future".

The ego likes this game of moving towards is own destruction but never allowing itself to get there. Judging the best way to do it along the way, and trying to convince other egos that its way, is the best way!

It's not really a bummer... it is simply what it is.  The way I see it, when you physically die here... as I said before, the physical you and everything physical about you ceases to exist.  Whatever happens to what remains after all that physicalness is stripped away... well then, I guess that's the real big question.  It's not really one I worry about though.  

And this is the best attitude to have. What happens is not to be worried about.
At the beginning of all this when I said I was seeing my mind for what it was and not trying to change it so much anymore, That's what I meant. Accepting my experience, living my life, being me. And trying not to worry about it!

[Ricochet]

Whatever happens to what remains after all that physicalness is stripped away... well then, I guess that's the real big question.  It's not really one I worry about though.

And this is the best attitude to have. What happens is not to be worried about.

William Buhlman seems to disagree with you two. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0isS9nC4dZ4

[theswearjar]

The point of life for me Is to reunite the motion bound soul with the motionless infinite source  and whan you get the experience of that you realize what it means to express the perfect qualitys of spirit or source. But after that experience you open your eyes and your back to just you.  But its an. Amazing feeling because then your whole life becomes about changing your outer self (the feeling of indaviduality and free will)  to reflect that inner perfectness  that you know exists 

Worrying about things doesnt help tho but that doesnt mean to ignore things , it means to calmy observe and understand yourself and choose which seeds you want growing in the soil of your mind

[Szaxx]

The core is your very existence itself. It has to be consciously aware or it can't exist. For the sense of individuality, a state of awareness unconnected to anything has to be accepted. This state can be experienced in very rare circumstances. If you've ever had an illness that took you out of the physical world you'd understand. It's a sense of awareness in total blackness. You have your sense of who you are and all memories etc. You won't have any of your worldly senses input, just a concious point of existence. This is one part of the core, at present its filled with the alpha state life existance you're in (your developed physical world personality). Most often its accepted as the 'you within', however this is the only contents you'd normally know of. In the NP things are different as the core can be emptied of memories or otherworld memories imprinted within. There's also the input via telepathy in the formless environments, some are pure colour while others are without any. These are more of a mental state of existence where you become an idea or another's viewpoint during an argument. Words fail to describe this properly. Going deeper into the core where the many personalities exist you are close to the source. You can connect and become all or nothing, words fail here too. This requires a massive flow of data in and out that's found in an imprint or I think rote someone else calls them. These are an instant flash of knowledge that can contain every single detail of each day of your life. Our minds cannot interpret the info at the speed it appears to come. There's no problem accepting this into the core as its natural to it, the recall or interpretation of the data needs to be time released and referenced to things you know of in the present existance.
If you manage to connect to all the cores the knowledge is immense. It is everything from our spec of a universe to so many incomprehensible whatever's they are.
We are nowhere near developed enough to connect fully. The best we can do is to sense another core and by using desire, we can feel things pertinent to them. Even this is a rare thing to experience however it is known of.
Summarising, the core is the source of our existence no matter what environment we are in/from. It's also part of the source itself in perhaps a reflective way.
If we take all our knowledge and use it to power a light, it would equal one candle. If we took a microseconds knowledge at the source it would be a sun bigger than the known universe.
Even then that's an underestimate.
I'll read the above posts again and see if any specific questions need answering.
There is so much that words fail to explain once you're in the NP.

[theswearjar]

I really like readin your posts szaxx your ideas are always. Very intriguing . When you say experience all or nothing i totaly kno wat you mean but for me its not nothiing its no-thing that every thing exists in

But your rite its almost impossible to express in words because its a intuitive basrd feeling an the intalectusl mind can nver understand it because its jst to much. . Its like trying to tell someone wat a rose smells like
To tell some one to think or concieve Of sometthing beyond all manifestation in every sence of the word is hard to comprehand for most ppl  but when you can experience the motionless state of the soul body and mind , the all pervading loving intelagince underlying all that is  makes itself known and not before that. , thats when the game of life truely starts

[Lumaza]

The core is your very existence itself. It has to be consciously aware or it can't exist. For the sense of individuality, a state of awareness unconnected to anything has to be accepted.

Szaxx your entire post was very good, as usual!  

I have come to a conclusion and this is my own personal opinion or understanding that what we experience seems to come through whatever vessel we find ourselves in at the moment. I think every one of these vessels has a mind that acts as a filter and that consciousness itself has to penetrate this filter as well. Once it does, it gets whatever programming/teachings that you have experienced during your lifetime here. But the fact that you are in essence pure consciousness itself is one of the things that this "filter" blocks. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to experience anything the way that you do here. You need to have some form of "amnesia" to be able to experience anything anew.

I have become aware in my Dreams many times whereas in whatever one of the many Universes, aka Multiverses" I have found myself in, the personality that I had was completely different from my personality here. That would show me that my "mental conditioning" or let's say the way I was brought up or whatever I learned in that existence had to do completely with the way my "current" personality in that existence actually was. I know that sounds confusing, but like I said, this is what I have personally experienced myself and perhaps because I have written it here, some others people might understand this concept and have also experienced this as well.

This only comes though when I am conscious of being in a "vessel" and it shows through the predicaments that I find myself in when I first become consciously aware in my Dreams. It also shows in where I live, the people I find myself surrounded by and all kinds of things. All of these circumstances being completely different from my current life in this reality.

Then there comes the times when I become aware I am when I am just a singular point of consciousness. In these there is no need for a personality, because there is no actual "vessel" as in physical body of any form being used. The "core" as Szaxx put it doesn't show the characteristics of an incarnate body. It just "is". When you find yourself aware as this, you can't explain it in Human terms, because you aren't experiencing a Human or physical reality anymore. You don't really even find yourself in a place per say. You just "are". Terms like "is" and "just are" may not help people understand this further, but they are the only words that I can find that really explain it.  

So I think our "filter" or mind per say, works just like a computer. We have seen computers being upgraded through the years, but we have also been witnessing that "upgrade" in the Human equation as well. Why does a insect not show the intelligence of a Human? It all has to do with the size and capability of the filter/computer and what their current "vessel" will be physically able to do. Are they conscious as well? Does every living thing have consciousness or is it more like is every either living or thing period consciousness itself? These things we will never know until one day we find ourselves again devoid of any kind of "vessel" and just "are" once more. I find it very difficult to stay in that mode through conscious projecting, lucid dreaming, OBEs, whatever form of shifting is being currently experienced at the moment for any length of time. But once you do experience even briefly, you know you just experienced something incredibly awesome and pretty well impossible to explain. We can only use "adjectives" to describe it.

I don't think it's being experienced via NDEs though. I think the person that is having the NDE is still too close to their current physical live and it's mindset and conditioning, as in beliefs and things like that, to be able to experience what it's like to just "be" again. Sometimes their current mental conditioning and mindset in general follows them for a quite awhile before they finally "allow" a new mindset to take it's place. But with other people like Monks, Yogi's, etc that have been mentally conditioned to release the physical mindset, the transition to just "being" is easier to achieve. This is why I agree whole heartedly with William Buhlman's approach. Mentally condition yourself now so when the time comes you are prepared and can be able to "navigate" through what comes next.

[Bluebird]

Whatever happens to what remains after all that physicalness is stripped away... well then, I guess that's the real big question.  It's not really one I worry about though.  

And this is the best attitude to have. What happens is not to be worried about.

William Buhlman seems to disagree with you two.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0isS9nC4dZ4

Then by all means, worry about it. Do something about it. Perhaps in some years you will come to believe something else and worry about that. So your life becomes worrying, searching, and doing. Sounds like your not alone. Sounds like me!