Is it possible for inborn blind pple to see inAP?

[WalkerInTheWoods]

I do not remember where I read it, maybe Astral Dynamics, but I think it was Robert Bruce who said that yes they can see in the Astral. They do see things much differently than those of us that atleast at one time had physical vision do but they can see.

[goingslow]

I actually think the book said it depends on if they were born blind or became blind.  But im not positive.

I remember reading somewhere..(AD?) that they are able to perceive in a very strong way if born blind, but they are not able to see.  Part of this might be expectation and the fact they dont really know how to perceive sight, and not a physical thing.

Maybe it is even an expectation thing.  Like when you dont think you can fly in an AP you cant.

[Kazbadan]

But the astral body it´s different from the real body. It´s very pure, so how cannot they see? It would be fantastic if they could! AP would prove very good for them!


THIS IS FOR GOINGSLOW: hello! I don´t understand english very well, and sometimes basic phrases are somehow ambiguous to me: "Like when you dont think you can fly in an AP you cant". Sorry to bother you with such stupid question but i need to understand the phrase correctly in order to take some conclusions. Do you wanted to mean that if i AP, (without know that i can fly while in such ethereal state), I will not fly indeed? If so, maybe there are may unleashed and unrevealed powers waiting for us in the Astral.
If i cannot fly while AP, just because i didn´t knew it, how can we explain that many involuntary OBE´s are flying OBE´s?

[WalkerInTheWoods]

The astral is very responsive to your thoughts and feelings. If you believe that you cannot fly then you will not. If you believe that you can fly then you will be able to. You need to learn how the astral works to understand a lot of the things that are going to happen to you when you are on the astral.

quote: I actually think the book said it depends on if they were born blind or became blind. But im not positive.

I remember reading somewhere..(AD?) that they are able to perceive in a very strong way if born blind, but they are not able to see. Part of this might be expectation and the fact they dont really know how to perceive sight, and not a physical thing.

It has been awhile since I read it, where ever I read it. I am thinking he said that they can see things, but they are very different than how we see them. But I really do not recall now. You could be correct. It really does not matter. You do not have to actually "see" anything on the astral, just percieve it.

[goingslow]

quote:Originally posted by Kazbadan


THIS IS FOR GOINGSLOW: hello! I don´t understand english very well, and sometimes basic phrases are somehow ambiguous to me: "Like when you dont think you can fly in an AP you cant". Sorry to bother you with such stupid question but i need to understand the phrase correctly in order to take some conclusions. Do you wanted to mean that if i AP, (without know that i can fly while in such ethereal state), I will not fly indeed? If so, maybe there are may unleashed and unrevealed powers waiting for us in the Astral.
If i cannot fly while AP, just because i didn´t knew it, how can we explain that many involuntary OBE´s are flying OBE´s?

fallen angel is right.. in the astral if you have doubts you can fly very often you wont be able to.  I have periods of time when "something" is chasing me and I try to fly away but cant.  Its almost always because I am expecting something to hold my leg down.  However when I have a clear head and am in an AP or lucid dream I am able to will myself to fly, no problem.

Expectation has a lot to do with what happens in the astral.  That goes with any aspect of the astral.. thought=reality there.  

I also dont think it matters if they can see, because it seems the way they can perceive equals our sight.  If I ever become unlazy maybe I'll look that section up to see what he actually says about the blind thing.

[forsaken]

i don't see why you shoukdn't beable to see "overthere"
even if you are blind because that's your astral eyes your using.
but i don't know. for example iv'e heard blind people don't always dream as other people that they don't see anything
but feel and hear things just as when they are awake
but i guess that depends if you was born blind or if you have become blind later. ??

[Nick]

Hi Kazbadan,

There is some writing on this very subject. If you have a copy of Astral Dynamics by Robert Bruce, then take a look at pages 100 to 103. If you don't have a copy here's some of what Robert wrote:

" Blindness and OBE Perception

Supporting evidence can be found in the study of the dream and projection abilities of blind people. It is fairly well known that blind people who have experienced sight before they became blind are capable of having fully sighted dreams and projections. Obviously, if the physical condition of the eyes were reflected into the sight capabilities of the projected double, physical blindness would blind the projected double out of its body during an OBE-which is simply not the case.

However, if the physical eyes had nothing to do with OBE perception, then people who have been blind since birth (never experiencing sight) should also be able to see clearly during dreams and projections-which unfortunately is also not the case. Therefore, OBE sensory perception must also be dependent on the learned sensory reception capabilities of the physical brain, not the current functioning or nonfunctioning abilities of the physical sense organs. These principles also apply to profound deafness." (Astral Dynamics pages 100-101)


There are exercises in Robert's book that do not rely on visualization, which, he indicates would be the biggest problem for blind projectors as they require basic learned sight experience. Rather, he has developed techniques which are set forth in Astral Dynamics, that are based on tactile imaging. Tactile imaging is defined as "The active use of focused body awareness to manipulate and stimulate the energy body, to raise energy into it, and stimulate its energy centers. Tactile imaging is also used for projection techniques." (Astral Dynamics page 545.)

Sorry for the long answer, however it was necessary. Hope that helps, and hope to hear more from you at the forum.

Very best,

[TorosDead]

Yes it is possible, but if you have been born blind then you have no concept of what 3D image lookes like, so everything you see in the astral world is only 2D, like a picture.

[Kazbadan]

thanks for the answers. I think that what happens most it´s what Robert Bruce says. Your thought are not prepared to see, since you never saw before.

About what goingslow sayd:
thought=reality there -

"There is no spoon!"[8D]

It´s like in Matrix. Actually, Neo is an Astral Projector[]

[WalkerInTheWoods]

Thank you, Nick.

Thinking about it, I do not think there really is anything to actually see in the Astral. I think it is just how we interpret what we perceive. Those of us that can see rely heavily on vision so when we perceive something in the astral we make a visual interpretation. I remember reading someone's experiences who, though not blind, had many astral and RT experiences where he did not see visually yet said he knew where everything was. He actually knew more details about everything than one would by seeing it visually. So I am wondering if those who never had sight may not have an advantage in the astral over those of us who are more visual. Due to the way we learn to see, we tend to focus on one thing or area and disreguard everything else. Taking this habit with us over into the astral can really limit us in what we experience, unless we break from this habit when we go into the astral. Maybe we should strive to not be so visual and more open to knowing what we are experiencing instead of just seeing it.

[Nick]

Hi fallnangel77,

Your post got me thinking along the lines of a book I read a few years ago called Mindsight - Near Death and Out of Body Experiences in the Blind by Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper.

So I found a website that reviews the book. There is, for example, this quote about the book:

"Ring and Cooper explore evidence that even those blind from birth can "see" during near-death experiences. Their evidence reveals a unique type of perception. More than just "seeing", it involves a deep awareness and profound ability to know that the authors have called "Mindsight".

and

"There is compelling evidence that the blind do "see" in those moments, but it is not sight as we think of it. Ring and Cooper uncover a kind of "transcendental awareness" they refer to as mindsight. It involves the strange experience of being able to perceive from all angles at once, from every focal depth at once, and a sense of "knowing" the subject, not just visually, but with a deep and inexplicable knowledge."

So, as you point out, instead of referencing our "physical" sense in AP/OBE, a more "transcendental awareness"  can be relied on. While the authors call it "Mindsight", perhaps we would think of it as "non-physical" or "astral sight", or whatever label one chooses, I guess.

Here's the link to the page where I lifted the above quotes, btw:

http://www.curezone.com/books/best/book.asp?ID=578

Very best,

[beavis]

Blind people dont ever learn the wrong way to see (with your eyes) so its easier for them.

[Kazbadan]

While Astral P., can it happen to an inborn blind person to see in AP? I so, is there view of the objects equal to ours?