The Nature of the Astral Plane

[Tisha]

quote:Does anyone else agree that the astral plane is simply a representation of the subconsious?

I rather think it's the other way around[]

And as to the 33 universal laws . . . are you sure it's not 33 and a third?  Thirty nine?  Maybe the "master" missed a few.  Can we settle on:

"There appear to be several universal laws that seem unchangeable and absolute.  Enlightened individuals have noticed thirty-three of them."

Ok, I'll buy it.

[shadowatcher]

I believe in science. Mainly the fact that all OBEs and ETC can be explained by scientific laws, either existing ones or ones that need to be created. Did you read the intro to this forum? anyhoo, human beings only remember a very small portion of what they see hear and touch. So doesnt it make sense that if you could get instant access to your subconscious you would have access to every thing you didnt remember? it does, and thats what I think an OBE is.

[Tayesin]

Hi People.  Sorry for interuppting here.  But, HAY PAUL! Your not gunna just drop our discussion like that again are you?  I mean, geez mate, that would be twice now we have been having an intense discussion and you dropped it when it got hard.  Come on mate, if it pushes your buttons (and mine too)then ask yourself why?  

When I first started here at the pulse you rode me fairly hard, but folded when it came to the guts of the matter.  So now, in your own words, "I asked you questions and you did not even answer them."

Integrity my friend!

And now on a different note.   Tisha, you seem to have an immense ability to understand the bigger picture in a calm way.  I find that exciting, oops there goes my calm.  LOL

Love always.

[Tayesin]

quote:Originally posted by pmlonline

Sorry but get the clue; i.e., there comes a time when people have to agree to disagree.  I think that in your mind you would love to believe that "it got hard."  What got hard Tayesin?  You ended the conversation by blasting with a post that was nothing but question after question.  That's not a conversation.
If you want a conversation Tayesin then learn to have one.
Let me know when you're ready,
.....
Paul

Paul, confrontational?  I asked all those questions because your last post before it was a sweeping generalized statement, made as if that was the only answer there could be to what we had been discussing.  I had come to expect more in your well thought out responses.  So, I wanted you to answer them using the the knowledge you have from your belief system.  Is there something wrong with that?

Agreeing to disagree is fine if you don't want to push your boundaries.  I will respect that if it is your choice, but at least tell me so.

[/quote]
As far as Integrity Tayesin, you might want to get your stories straight before writing a book. Didn't you post that you've never projected into an inanimate object. And didn't you email me numerous pages in the book you're writing on how you projected into the rocky earth?
[/quote]

It's funny how when you asked for information from me in an e-mail, I was warned that you would try to use it in the forum.  Should have listened shouldn't I? Thank you for letting me have that lesson.

 Not the rocky Earth Paul, we were out of body in an astral realm.  You have jumped to conclusions here my friend.  

If you are feeling confronted Paul, there is a reason for that inside.  We are both helping each other here with our deeply entertaining conversations. I for one would not like to stop having them, I also like to think that when we reach a common ground, we will see that our two different ways will blend more harmoniously.

[/qoute]
I saw a person who was going to quit Astral Pulse so I interjected to offer some advice to you.
[/quote]

Paul, when I left, you wrote a post saying that I had written some very negative posts.  That I had made false accusations and assertions.  I responded to that post of yours and spent the time checking up on your accusations.  If you remember, I answered all of them politely and honestly. You did not respond to the last one on that subject!

[/quote]
The reason I didn't reply to you previous post was because asked 20 QUESTIONS and 5 statements! Respectfully, people will usually shy away from that. That given in addition to the fact that you were already uneasy with me.

Honestly, let's get along co'z I'm not touching this subject with you again. OK?
[/quote]

Paul, my uneasiness with you is because I see your telling me what you believe in such a way to have it sound like the only possible way.  We are grown adults Paul, we are both intelligent people, so why would we shy away from these questions? Can we not move through this together and both acknowledge that we are learning from this.

I would love to get along Paul, I already thought we were working on that.  It would be a shame to drop this subject we were on, we were both so close to breaking through something there.  

The last time I had these types of conversations was with another guy named Paul too. He had been taught by his mother to be a very clear medium.  She was well respected over the years in her work.  Yet he too had the concept that their's was the only way.  He even told me that his Guidance said they had never heard of the Kundalini! We continued the discussions until one night at the research group he had a breakthrough. He courageously said, "I absolutely refuse to believe that what you say could be true."  Brave wasn't he?  Unfortunately he also decided to call it quits just when he could take the next step to moving outside the taught belief system.

So this long winded post comes to a close.

Love always.

[Greytraveller]

Quote by ShadowCatcher
>>>>>> quote:
Does anyone else agree that the astral plane is simply a representation of the subconsious? <<<<<

Reply by Tisha
>>>>>> I rather think it's the other way around<<<<

Right on Tisha !! []
The astral plane(s) is Far more than just a person's subconscious. The fact that some people believe that Everything they see and do on the astral plane(s) is solely a product of their own mind shows just how little they actually know about the astral.
My personal belief is that the astral plane(s) is a higher dimension than the 4th dimension. The 4th dimension is the mind/consciousness/time extension of the 4 dimensional space-time holographic universe. The 4th dimension is the ethereal plane/RTZ/Local I.
So the astral plane(s) could be the 5th dimension. Or the 5th and 6th dimensions. Maybe the 8th dimension -If dimensions truly only exist as described in algebraic mathematical terms and all else is a product of individual perception[?] Anyways the point is that the astral plane(s) are currently above our ability to fully comprehend and can not be explained away as a product of personal subconscousness. [:O][8D]

[shadowatcher]

Right now lots of people are questioning the astral plane... Its nature and composition. Before you create a new topic, Read over the this Topic, lots of people gave great opinions here. LETS NOT WASTE ASTRAL PULSE FORUM SPACE BY CREATING TONS OF TOPICS!

[Tombo]

To pmlonline and tayesin: Your conversation is pretty entertaining to read. I don't wanna offend you guys but I don't believe you are really as spiritual advanced as you pretend. I mean you guys seem not even to be able to have a fair conversation! so what are all your journeys for then?
I don't wanna give my own opinion on the subject cause I don't have one and thats maybe an advantage.....
But Paul giving statements like there are 33 laws and 7 Planes and so on reminds my of a sect. I mean how can you know for sure, are you God?
Also saying Buddha and Jesus were avatars sounds a little strange to me as well. From where do you know that? did you ever meet? I'm kind of a Buddist myself and the core of Buddhas teaching is that he was a normal human beeing like everybody else and that everybody can reach in this life what he did (end of suffering). So I feel kind of irritated by your statements.
Sorry but thats my  honest opinion, All the best Tom

[Lasher]

quote:Originally posted by shadowatcher

I believe in science. Mainly the fact that all OBEs and ETC can be explained by scientific laws, either existing ones or ones that need to be created. Did you read the intro to this forum? anyhoo, human beings only remember a very small portion of what they see hear and touch. So doesnt it make sense that if you could get instant access to your subconscious you would have access to every thing you didnt remember? it does, and thats what I think an OBE is.

Hi Shadowcatcher,

Here is my two cents.  I have yet to remember an OBE or even a lucid dream, so take it for what it is worth.

Science is reliable but slow.  It could be that science will take thousands of years before it can accurately describe the astral or even the unconscious mind.

Many people at Astral Pulse don't seem to want to wait around for that to happen.  They have seen enough to conduct their own experiments.  That does not mean that we have to believe that there is an astral dimension beyond ourselves, just because they say it is so.

But, if we reject the notion of a shared astral reality until such time as it is scientifically proven to us, then we may be missing out on something very valuable.

As for me, I won't say that I unreservedly believe in the worlds described by OBers.

But I will suspend my disbelief, to avoid erecting the very mental barriers which could prevent me from having the experience that would prove it to me.

It's far more natural for people to think, "I'll believe it when I see it".  But what if the only way to ever see it is to at least suspend your disbelief?

If you were to do this, and then had an astral experience which you were able to verify in your waking life, it might give you more proof than you will ever get from science in our lifetime.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

Take Care!

Lasher

Lasher

[shadowatcher]

Lasher, thankyou for your very thoughtfull post. It gave me much to think about. First off: Is science a religion?

Yes. Science is a religion because like all religions, it explains hard-to-explain phenomenon. Whether its Zeus that creates thunder storms, or whether its particles rubbing together that creates thunder storms, they will still be thunder storms. Electricity was around long before humans could harness it. When we give things scientific names, we defy their mystery. We delude ourselves of their true nature and spirit. We should never lose our amazement with nature, and things untouched by man.

[shadowatcher]

What if you believe that science CAN (hypothetically) explain everything, we are just waiting for the right people, with the right formulas, to be born. So sometime in the infinite future, everything will be explained. For now, I can live with the "unexplained" I can accept miracles and "acts of god". I believe they WILL someday be explained. Just not right now. Thanks for feedback.

[shadowatcher]

[Tombo]

I just wanna add a thought to your discussion whether  it'll  ever be possible for science to explain everything or not.
What if it's not possible to apprehend everything on this plane (which is my believe or better which is my experience)?
For example: I once had a "dream" were I perceived colors that I couldn't comprehend on this plane, I knew it that when I'll wake up I'll only remember the "feel" of the colors but that I will be impossible to convert the colors into this plane. Like we could never understand a 3D object if we'd live in a 2D world.
Do you understand what I mean! weird isn't it?

[shadowatcher]

yeah, I do understand. Have you ever heard of the idea of Platos Cave?

[Soulfire]

In my perspective, the whole concept of who is a master, etc. is irrelevant and serves only the ego.  Two main points:

1) If you believe time is non-binding to the essence of who you are, then your entire experience of all your "lives" technically happens more or less simultaneously.  If this is true, then we are all masters and quite possibly demons as well.  If you do not believe time is ultimately binding, then you are simultaneously the entirety of all your infinite experiences and states of being in the now...you just may not be consciously aware of it.

2) If we ever truly transcend and/or ascend (or even just have access to) a state of "oneness" with all that is, then you would perceive not only all of your lifetimes as happening simultaneously...but also all the lifetimes of every individual form or manifestation of energy that ever has or will exist.  From a higher perspective, you literally ARE the person you are comparing yourself to.  Not only that, but you are also individually every single cell that lived in in that person's body in every single lifetime as well as every virus that infected that person, etc.  Each of those entities, cells, or even quantum particles have their own individual "lifetime" and unique set of "memories/perceptions" that when perceived from a state of "oneness" are all essentially you.

If you believe in the state of "oneness" then any comparison, judgement, or label you could ever make is ultimately meaningless.

--Soulfire

[Tombo]

@Shadowatcher: No, I never heard of the idea of platos cave. Please clear me up.

@Soulfire: good thoughts!

[veliki grizli]

What about Kirlian photography?
Some experiments are taken, and they where taking a photo of fertilizated egg , and they saw a young chicken ,but in physical world agg was still only fertilized without any form.

Happenings occure before in Astral world than in physical.

[shadowatcher]

The theory of Platos cave is the theory that if a man lives his whole life in cave, with only a tiny pinhole to see out of, that he would die if he was let out of the cave. Why? because he would be bombarded by sights and sounds and the amazing amzingness of life outside the cave. Now, how does this relate to the astral plane? What if we were living our whole lives in the cave of the physical world. What if we are only seeing a tiny fraction of what goes on around us. If we ever actually left "our cave" of the physical world, we would be bombarded by so many sights and sounds we would die.

[shadowatcher]

My opinion is: the astral plane is a state of consciousness that allows complete/instant access to all of the brains considerable utilities, basically, a journey through the mind. Obviously (i hate using that word but..) its not a physical place you can go to. I think its impossible to meet people there because any entities or sentient beings you did meet woudl be a product of your own mind.

So, if the astral plane is not as I say, and is not a physical place...what is it? If it is a non-physical place that is not individual (different for everybody) then is it possible for an event to shake the whole astral plane? could some powerful being destroy it or entities within it?

If it isnt either of those, perhaps it is a non-physical place that is individually apearing for everyone, yet the content is the same. So everyone is in the same non-physical place, it justs apears different...


WOW! if you actually read that whole thing, give me any thoughts. [|)]