FraudsPhonysAndFakes

[shaman]

Leyla,

why don't you ignore what these people say to you? if it bothers you?

It is true that some people pretend to be able to see spirits just like that.

However, nothing of all that, not even OBE has been proven to be scientifically correct, in that sens that OBE could just be dream-world and that seeing spirits might just be allucinations. This is more like a belief system, where you belief it or you don't.

Maybe you should listen to one of these guys (just one of them) and see how far she/he goes into the details and see if there is a way to validate his/her story... Can you validate (proof) your OBE to be real?

If one has to be suspicious about the reality of spirits and other methaphysical things, then I am afraid that nothing has been proven to be true scientifically speaking! So that there is doubt everywhere.

[shadowatcher]

There are many people on this forum who claim to have seen the dead without leaving their bodies. Read the topic "animals" if your not sure.

[cainam_nazier]

Personally I don't think that it's totally impossible to see the dead when you are awake.  I believe this because of my own personal experiences.  I don't see full representations like you suggest, but I see shadows or white forms.  The only thing I have ever seen that loked solid was a pair of legs, but I was viewing them from underneith a piece of equipment at work, so I don't know if they were attatched to anything.

So yah, I do think it is possible to see entire forms.  I know I wouldn't want to see people who are all mangled though.  I have enough problems with what I get.  However I really on't think it is all that common for a person to see full forms.  But there are plenty of people who have seen ghosts at some point in time.

I do fully agree that there are a lot of fakes out there.  Unforntunatly these people feel the need to be special so they make things up, or they are trying to take advantage of you some how.  Some of them are really easy to spot though, you just have to look for inconsistancies in what they say.  They will usually give themselves away.  

A good way to deal with these people is to simply tell them you honestly don't believe them and why.  After this you wait to see how they react.  Most people who are lying will take offense because you don't believe them.  This being that thier whole point in telling you the story was to get them interested in what they had to say and that you needed to hear it.  When they feel they are no longer in control of the conversation they will start to become irritaited.  They get the you have to believe me attitude.

Me personally I don't care if some one believes what I say or not.  The experience was mine after all and I will most likely never be able to put into the correct words to fully describe it.  If it was absolutely imparative that you believed it then you would have had the experience yourself.

[fURIX]

I do believe some people have the ability to see spirits with out OBE or AP. These are clairvoyant or/and psykic people. Wich most of them are born with this ability.

We have a show in Norway called "Åndenes Makt" wich means "The power of the spirits". This program visits homes and places wich the owners think is hounted. Then they bring different profesional mediums to the home/place, who then tryes to comunicate with the spirit/spirits and sometimes exorcize them. They are not told what the owners have experienced in the houes until after the session.

What amazes me is that the information they get from the spirits when it comes to names, dates, how the place used to look, even personal details about the persons living there right now are often and mostly entierly correct, acording to old state registers and documents, wich are checked into afterwards.
After some weeks they revisit the famlies whos house was hounted to ask how it is now. And most of the time no ghostly activities has occured since the medium was there.

If this program is a hoax? I realy doubt it by the way it is made.
I guess one has to see it...

They might be arrogant about their ability or whatever, but that does'nt mean they are fakes. If you had seen ghost every day since you were born, I bet it would'nt shock you if you saw one today too.

Think how a blind person would feel if he suddenly gained sight and could see the real world?

I see the real world every day and it does'nt shock me.



(....well, somtimes..[])

[clandestino]

hi Leyla !

quote:What they describe sounds more like schitzophrenia.

I agree , i reckon that some schizophrenics are capable of distinguishing between their "hallucinations" and physical reality. But perhaps they choose not to interpret it as a psychiatric disorder, instead they are "seeing the dead".

Also, there are a lot of people around that lie / exaggerate (is that spelt right?) for attention...perhaps that's what they're doing ?

anyway, trying to ignore them is the best advice...hard though it may be....rise above them !
Mark

[Leyla]

I thought I had made myself clear- but I see I need to reiterate.

These people are not claiming to "sense" spirits in the way that John Edward channels the dead and gets detailed information.

If they were saying that it would be believable.

What they are claiming is to see the dead as real and solid as a live person (how do they know it's a ghost then, I wonder?) and to see them with their human eyes, WITHOUT being in any trance or state of altered consciousness whatsoever.

Their stories are fantastic- these ghosts usually have died dramatic deaths, worthy of hollywood.

Yes I "sense" spirits, and I may see a colored ball of light, but I certainly cannot "see" a ghost in it's full form without being in ghost form myself. Much less communicate with it by direct speaking.

I dunno. They just annoy the hell out of me. I think they watch too many movies.

Shaman- no native american every called themselves a "shaman" the name is simply a "medicine man" or "holy man." Believe it or not, Shaman is a russian word.

And yes, I have proven my OBE's to people who are close to me many times over, by describing events, furniture, and walking directly into their dreams. My roommate actually moved out on me because she felt she had no privacy and I scared the excrement out of her.

Point blank: If there was a way to see spirits with human eyes other than just in "arua" form (a ball of colored light) I would have done it by now.

[shaman]

Salam alekh Leyla! (or merhaba!?)

I never said a native american medecin man would call himself Shaman,
Shaman is a general term used by modern language (which origine of the name is from Russian, Da ia znaiu eto) and includes many religious belief systems that are all similar, from south america, north america (medecin men), Celtic, asiato-russian, etc...

see here http://www.deoxy.org/shaover.htm

Now back to your story, I knew a person who would see her (deceased) father like we seee normal people... however she was suffering (or at least was believed by the psychiatrist to be suffering) from a mental ilness, which might have been related to schizophrenia. These things were no fun, and she would be completely certain that she had seen him. So maybe some of the people who addressed you were such without knowing it. That is one (sad) explanation.

Barak Allah Hufik! (ro should I say: gule gule?)

[Gandalf]

Leyla_

So how do you view stories about ghosts and hauntings then?
Most people who see ghosts or experience hauntings are not usually obe'ing or in a trance state, yet they see human forms. Sometimes such hauntings can manifest in very real looking apparitions.

How do you explain this? Unless you take the view that all ghosts and hauntings are untrue of course, but that would just smack of someone who denied something that didnt fit in with their belief system, an all to common problem!


I have sympathy with those who have seen ghosts, as I am one of those people. It was very real and I saw it with my own eyes!

IMO sometimes your 'astral vision' can be switched on even when you are still in your body in which case you will be able to see some astral activity along with physical inviroment suroundings as seen by your physical eyes. I believe this is how some sightings occur (and is a common trait of psychics). Other times it is the spirits themselves who have managed to amass enough density to manifest themselves.

Regards,
Douglas

[Soulfire]

Hi,

I would not say anything is impossible.

Quite a few years ago, I was taking my dog for a walk.  As is often the case, I saw my next door neighbor sitting out on his porch smoking a cigarette.  He waved at me the same way he always does but didn't say anything and looked a little lost or confused.  I really did not think much about it and went about my business.

Later that day, I found out that he had died several hours before I saw him.  Prior to that, my only "paranormal" experiences were several  lucid dreams I had experienced at different times in my life.  I was not in any kind of trance state or anything and had never displayed any real psychic talent.  In fact at that point in my life, I was living very "unconsciously" where identifying with the endless babble in my head was my typical state.

I'm not sure why I had that experience, but it certainly had nothing to do with me being psychic, having a gift, or being special..at least not any more special than everyone else.  

--Soulfire

[clandestino]

Gandalf, I agree... One explanation is that astral sight and physical sight are both simultaneous. They both overlap.

But Leyla is saying:

quote:What they are claiming is to see the dead as real and solid as a live person

, which fits mre neatly with Shaman's post, i reckon !

cheers...

[beavis]

Leyla "I do not believe the worlds are supposed to be mixed, or else they would not be separated in the first place."

Many people can sometimes combine them, including me. They are not separated except in peoples' limited perception of them.

"I think anyone attempting to mix the two worlds could meet with madness/insanity/death."

I've come close to all 3, but I wont stop mixing.

[Leyla]

Hmm. Okay, yes I will accept Shaman as being used as a modern term. That is acceptable to me.

I am niether Hebrew nor Moslem.  

My mother is Russian and my father is Arapaho (Native American).

They named me Leyla after the song. But after a little research I discovered it is a famous middle eastern story. And behind most old legends there is mythology. Leyla "darkness/midnight" is an ancient middle-eastern goddess.

To quote Black Elk "Growing power is rooted in mystery like the night. Seeds sprout in the darkness of the ground (mother earth)  before they know the summer and the day. In the night of the womb spirit quickens into flesh."

Although the Christians usualy try to push anything "black" or "dark" as being inherently evil, they adopted Leyla as the name of an Angel. Her job: "Guardian of the Unborn."

As for mixing the worlds, if madness/insanity/death is your thing then more power to you. I understand Crowely was trying to mix the worlds shortly before his untimely death.

[beavis]

I try not to die while mixing the worlds, but I'm not afraid of it either. I wouldnt want to become crazy because they would lock me up (bastards). They lock up a lot of sane people. I have found that the truth is very close to insanity, and people dont want to believe it.

[shaman]

Dobrei diyen Leyla,

AS to the meaning of Leyla, it means "night" in semitic languages, no matter if it is ancien arameean, hebrew, arabic... I am glad to learn that it was originally the goddess of the night.

I have not met any other person who could claim that they could see the deads (except for the one I mentioned in my previous message) and I myself have seen deceased people only in unvolontary OBE and in vivid dreams. It also happens that I dream of people sometimes before they actually die, usually they are people of my family or somehow related to me.

I have adopted the name Shaman here since Shamanism seems to me to explain quite a lot. I especially like the aspect of the Shaman as related to dreams, and to nature, plants, animals, and the night sky; and the modest and respectable view of man with the world: the earth does not belong to us, we belong to it.

Also some of the ancestors on the side of my mother knew well in advance when their time "to go" had come. I believe they were "Shamans" of their kind.

Do skorovo svidania!

[Van-Stolin]

I don't know if you will belive me or anything, but.  I talk to a spirt all the time, she likes to hang around me and is a real good friend.  I guess many people would say that it is just myself, but she has manifested in the phyical in many ways.  Sometimes I tinkle her off and she hits me, it really hurts too.  Other times things have moved and I can feel when she is near.  I can't see her, at least not yet, but I doubt that I would see her fully.  Oh also when I talk to her it takes alot of concintration so I usually get a headache sometimes when talking for long periods and sometime forget the world around me.  Really I just wanted to tell you my experiance, if you don't belive me then that is fine.

Peace, Van

[electricdreamer]

Hi Leyla,
I have never seen spirits with my physical eyes-ever-and if I did I would be really freaked out!!!  I have experianced telepathy, clairsentience and empathy-I have seen spirits when I am APing or lucid and talked to them-but thats the only time-I try to keep an open mind, only because I would be very skeptical if someone told me they experianced the things I know I have (and it never happened to me) It is scarey to myself even-so its not usually something I would discuss with people I didnt know very well-unless I felt like there was a good reason to.

[electricdreamer]

Thanks for the post about the word Shaman-I never knew this was a russian word!  (Im russian, too)

[jc84corvette]

You will meet many people that lie just to fit in the "crowd" or "be" better than you.

[Nay]

In a old childhood house, we use to see a lady all the time.  One time she was standing in a doorway to a bedroom just looking at me, then the next second she was gone.  Saw her once from outside looking out a upstairs window..that kinda looked weird cause you could tell that she was floating..because of how tall she looked compared to the window size.. I could go on and on with all the happenings in that house.. But I would say that I feel or sense them more than seeing them.
I do believe there are lots of ppl capable of seeing "spirits" without having to have a projection.

Nay. []

[jc84corvette]

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[Nay]

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Nay []

[jc84corvette]

quote:Originally posted by Nay

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Nay []

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[Kristina]

Hi Leyla,

I have to agree with you!  I have only seen dead people while I'm astral projecting.  Recently, I saw a dead kid (about 20 years old) who appeared to be a gang-banger.  He was dressed in baggy black jeans and Reebok tennis shoes, with a baggy red t-shirt covered in blood.  He was African American with mini-dreadlocks.  He looked so lost and sad.  When he saw me he said "you comin'?" as if he recognized me, and started shuffling toward me.  He meant me no harm.  BUT HE SCARED THE BEJESUS OUT OF ME.  I couldn't sleep for two weeks and was afraid to AP after that.  I can still hear his voice when I think about it!  Now, when I project into my hallway (where he was), I look both ways so carefully before proceeding.  I encountered another dead little boy (about 10) a few days later, in my living room.  He startled me at first but I worked up my courage and talked to him and he was a really nice kid.

Anyway, I can relate to your comment "It's never, say, an old bag lady from the 70's who got hit by a taxi."

While some people may truly see spirits while still in their body, I would think they are very rare.  (more rare than we are, those of us who AP)  Keep in mind that people always like to boost their self-importance!  There aren't many people I tell this stuff to.  Like, 2 or 3 tops.  My husband, my dear highly-psychic friend who also AP's, one online pal, oh and my posts here on the board.  That's about it, mainly because I don't like having to defend my experiences to someone who says "what an interesting dream."

[Nay]

quote:While some people may truly see spirits while still in their body, I would think they are very rare. (more rare than we are, those of us who AP) Keep in mind that people always like to boost their self-importance!

I think there are alot more than we think.  I'm not sure what the self-importance comment was all about?  Are you saying that ppl whom "claim" to have seen ghost or spirits, while not APing, that they are not quite telling the truth to make themselves feel more important?  I certaintly don't think seeing a ghost, spirit, or apparition, ect. while not APing, makes anyone more important than the next person.  

That is what got me fasinated with Astral Projection, guess you could say "ghosts" were my first loves..lol  And in order for me to "communicate" better, I started meditating and then the APing just followed naturally.  Thanks to the Astral Pulse I now know what was happening to me all those years. [^]


Nay []

[Leyla]

I have a very annoying experience with people -

When they find out I have OBE's they approach me to tell me they too can see spirits. Usually they claim to communicate with the dead. Only with one very big differance.

They claim to be able to do this WITHOUT EVER LEAVING THEIR BODY.

I personaly have NEVER seen into the spirit world without being in spirit form myself.

They tell me they are WIDE AWAKE, not in any trance or altered state whatsoever, and see/communicate with those who have "crossed over." And they say they see them as clearly as physical people.

How can you see spirits- with your physical human eyes? I mean it just doesn't make sense. You need your astral eyes.

I do not believe the worlds are supposed to be mixed, or else they would not be separated in the first place. I think anyone attempting to mix the two worlds could meet with madness/insanity/death.

What they describe sounds more like schitzophrenia.

Also, there is the way they talk to me when they are relating their story- with a sort of flippant arrogance, snotty and uppity, as if to say "You're nothing special, I see spirits all the time. In fact there's one standing right over there." As if it's all no big deal. As if it bores them.

I don't know about everyone else, but when I meet up with a non-human entity it is a very shocking startling experience- even when they are friendly and welcoming they can still scare the wits out of you.

The spirits they describe seeing are usually murder victims wearing elaborite period costumes, ballgowns and big hats and such. It's never, say, an old bag lady from the 70's who got hit by a taxi.

My theory is that these people get their spiritual education from the movies. Like the one about the little boy who said "I see dead people" (He never left his body.)

And of course John Edward. I think he channels the dead. But I don't think he's seeing directly into the spirit world with physical human eyes. But these people obviously must think he does.

Certainly every legitimate spiritualist I have ever read (black elk speaks, for example) has had to be *in* spirit form in order to see/communicate with those in the spirit world.

I have ran into several people who have real astral experiences and I believe them. But there are a great deal of people who are just lying to my face.

How do I deal with these people? Other than tell them I think they're full of it and to shut their traps because they don't know what they're talking about.