The Neverending Thread (was SATAN DECEIVES YOU)

[PeacefulWarrior]

Hey, I am Christian and I defend the OBE and every other experience and part of our soul (we all have spirit bodies that God created, saying that it is wrong to expereince this is saying that God is evil and wrong and I am sure you don't believe that).

Also, anything, if it takes control of your life, can become dangerous (food, drugs, tv, video games, books, negative relationships, ETC ETC) and if someone only focuses on OBE and lets every other part of their self and life go, then yes, AP is dangerous.

Furthermore, there is biblical evidence ( a lot of it) that many prophets and others have recieved revelations from OBE's and through their dreams.

Trust me, your Christian friends in their overzealousness have got you twisted my friend.  

Demanding people to accept Christ is not the way to help others, Christ never did that.

Your brother,
Daniel

PS- thanks for moving this Nick.

PSS- to all other members, don't retaliate to Allanon's post, that's what he wants.  Obviously going in and judging everyone like he has is wrong, so don't play his game.

[Nick]

OK Allanon, I get the point, I'm going to burn in hell. Thanks for the warning. By the way, I'm moving this thread to the Astral Chat forum as it's really not in the scope of obe discussions.

[shadowatcher]

All this religion and worship just allows God to get a stranglehold on your soul.

You must turn to the Devil for the redemption of your soul NOW.

There is no other Way out of this.

You may think you will "Live Forever" after you die but that is exactly what Christs first lie was. If you want eternal life and happiness with the Devil you must accept Satan as your Saviour and turn to the World of  Satan. The Bible is absolutely false no matter what "evidence" God puts on the table. I will pray for you Allanon, as I too was once in the snares of good spirits.

Oh yes, meditate, dont pray

[no_leaf_clover]

Gee.. Satan told me he just wanted to give me some candy if I did what he asked. [:O]

[Anonymous]

It's all good, people. I got Satan to sell me HIS soul. He's MY biznitch now. Booya!

[kromeknight]

It's really quiet simple Allanon
you choose your own existance and destination.



Or


Think about it....think hard!

[James S]

Oh no.....not again!

[Soulfire]

Hi,

It's worth considering that astral projection, lucid dreaming, and regular dreaming are fundamentally the same experience, with the main difference being how much consciousness you have access to during the experience.  I will discuss below why I have come to believe this(I know some people will disagree), but assuming just for the moment that it MIGHT be true, then it might also follow that AP and lucid dreaming are no more "sinful" or wrong for devout Christians than the dreams all of us have every night?

The non-physical planes are very thought responsive, and the more thoughts you have active, the more I believe they influence the "reality" around you in those states.  When you are dreaming normally, I think it is mostly your sub-conscious creating everything you experience and you primarily perceive what the sub-conscious creates.  When you "awaken" in a dream, I personally find that there seem to be varying degrees of "consciousness" that you wake up with.  Sometimes you are only partially awake, and then your subconscious seems to be very active creating things that probably would not be there without your presence making the experience feel more dreamlike than a typical astral projection.  Some of my lucid dreams have been as crystal clear as any consciously induced AP and when this happens I can tell no difference between the two other than how I got there.  I have also found that I can create clarity and bring much more consciousness into a lucid dream when I remember to make a conscious effort to do this.

Personally I do not hold to any dogma Christian or otherwise, but even if you do, it might be worth considering whether or not the dreams that god gave to each and every one of us can really be considered "wrong"?  Is choosing to learn to experience your dreams more consciously any more wrong than choosing to learn to pay more attention to your physical life and living it with more clarity and consciousness?  It's worth thinking about...  []

--Soulfire

[Robert Bruce]

G'day Folks!

A fun topic by the looks of it all....

But it has a serious side.

I have known a number of devout born again type christians to experience spontaneous OBE.  They have told their church that they were 'taken up' and shown visions.  This is recieved well by churches as the 'terminology' used to describe OBE experiences fits their paradigms.

This only goes to show that it is not so much the experience of OBE, but the 'terminology' used to describe it that matters to devout christian type people.

On a more serious note, this type of fundamental christian view of OBE can cause a great deal of harm.  Many christians, including ministers, I have know and helped, who have experienced OBE related symptoms, eg, paralysis, rapid heartbeat, vibrations, etc, interpret this as major satanic attack.  The symptoms thus needlessly terrorize and traumatize them, when they are actually just harmless and natural phenomena.

With regard to 'letting go of ones mind', or emptying the mind, etc, newage and Eastern terminology also gets in the way. If you use terms like 'focusing the mind' or 'clearing the mind' or 'quietening the mind' then christians take less offense.  The act of clearing the mind involves strength and discipline, and such a mind is far less vulnerable to negative influences than any other 'non disciplined' mind.

Keep all this in mind when you discuss these matters with christians as a simple change in terminology can overcome most such arguments.

Also, I always wonder about the other 80% of the world's population that are non christian when I come across this type of dogmanic argument. But then again, they probably think the same way about the christians.

Btw, are you aware that there is absolutely 'no' historical proof to support 'anything' written in the new testament?  The only thing that supports biblical history is the bible itself. This is fact that can be ascertained through historical records and university religious studies. The earliest historical evidence of christianity and the bible are a few late-third century 'fingernail sized' fragments that historians consider could 'possibly' be fragments of a very early version of the bible.

There is a big difference between 'popularly believed' history and 'real' history that can be supported by hard evidence.  However, most christians are not interested in the 'real' truth, only in the 'comfortable' truth.

Also note that freedom of thought is 'actively' discouraged in fundamentalist type christian churches, where members are told what to think and what to believe, so this situation is likely to remain unchanged.


Take care, Robert.

[shadowatcher]

I believe that the Bible was created in the middle ages, to increase the oppression of the underclass. For hundreds of years, theres been a conspiracy of the Plutocrats against ordinary people, and religion is the weapon of the upperclass.

[James S]

Allanon,
I'm going to take PeacefulWarriors advice here, as I respect his opinion, and not retaliate.

Having been a 'born again' christian myself for 16 years, during which time I studied the bible quite carefully, I can assure you that for as many arguments that you can bring here in support of the bible being 'the one and only truth', there are easily as many against, and all you will be doing is wasting hard-drive space on the AstralPulse server with text files full of circular arguments.

There are a number of christians on this site, including Daniel, who are here because of real life experiences that maybe cannot be specifically explained in the Bible. They have learned to accept these experiences not as satanic, but as one of the many gifts that our creator has to offer us, if only we open our minds to the possibilities.

Regards,
James.

[LA FORET MAUVE]

In another post, Allanon wrote: "Jesus Christ is Lord and the Devil is nothing more than a selfish creation."...contradiction !

By the way, Allanon i have a request ! Could you contact the "musee d'histoire naturelle" in Paris ? It is a museum where you could find your place, the scientific staff there would be amazed and very excited to have a specimen of a near extinct specie : catholicus ignitus...a very dangerous specie...more dangerous than Hitler in fact. Thank you Allanon, for reminding us the good old words which have sent millions people to burn in public places in europa.
May your idol give you some maturity if it is in its power...

[Soulfire]

Hi again guys,

You might not agree with Allanon's views, but there is nothing good that is going to come out of attacking him personally.  

In all fairness, Allanon is not the same person who committed the atrocities in the name of the Christian faith you speak of, so "blaming" him for them just because you perceive his mindset to be similar to the people who did those things is blatantly unfair.  All I have seen Allanon be "guilty" of is posting messages on here trying to help people according to the beliefs he has.

It's fine that we have different beliefs, but to attack people for expressing them puts us on the same level (and comes from the same energy) as the people who committed the atrocities you mentioned.  The best way to honor God (whether you are religious or not) is to act with understanding and love towards each other.

--Soulfire

[curiousgirl]

why do you keep hanging out in this "devil's forum", allanon?  perhaps you have had similar experiences or are fascinated by this stuff, but don't want to admit it to yourself.  and then you feel guilty and afraid and most especially lost, because you find yourself questioning your religion and retaliate against your feelings by "thumping" your bible at us (at yourself?).  it just seems strange to me that someone like you would even bother going through the trouble of coming into a place like this (of all places!) to preach.  instead of working yourself into a furious frenzy here, why don't you just chill and have nice conversations in a christian forum?  or go and preach at people who are lost and lonely and need a dogmatic religion to tell them what to do and help (lead) them through life.  i think here most of the people are going to be a fairly stubborn lot... we have that horrible problem of thinking for ourselves.  are you an internet missionary or something?

[LA FORET MAUVE]

hmm you're right, Soulfire ! I apologize, i was furious !!! I must admit that i am still furious against the Church in general and to see people acting "missionary"...we all know how awfull the acts of missionary people are on foreign cultures ...knowing that i can't understand this kind of behaviour...
bah...we all do mistakes...

[Allanon]

I think I must narrow the scope of this topic down a little.....

AP is fine by me under one condition. That condition being that you accpet Jesus the Christ as your personal messiah first before you attepmt to project.

Whether you are aware of it or not most of the thoughts that come to you from projecting are as a result of spiritual influeces that are usually bad ones.

These false spirits make you beleive that when you die you are not really gong to be dead!!!! That is just what they want you to think. They do not want you to inherit eternal life from the Son.

You can fight it all you want but I know that EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU ON THIS BOARD FEELS THE TRUTH THAT IS CHRIST.

Let me know of any spirit that can dare stand up face to face to the One True God that created them all.

[Tab]

quote:Originally posted by Allanon

Let me know of any spirit that can dare stand up face to face to the One True God that created them all.

Oh, hello anthropomorphism.

[clandestino]

I agree entirely with Soulfire's views on projections / dreams etc. And with Robert Bruce's points about the terminology we use...sometimes it upsets people who are devout.

Allanon, you said :

quote:These false spirits make you beleive that when you die you are not really gong to be dead!!!! That is just what they want you to think. They do not want you to inherit eternal life from the Son.

We should bear in mind here that christianity has far more points in common with other religions than points of difference.
i.e. All religions believe death is not the end....All religions believe in a divine creator.

As such, the differences between religions are often semantic. Perhaps the differences between astral projection, and associated belief systems/ philosophies are not too far removed from religions / christianity ? i believe they have a lot in common, yet we continue to focus on the differences.

Allanon, do you think there is any common ground between christianity and astral projection ?.

regards
Mark

[Traveler]

I only have a few words on this. I'm a Christian and attend a good size Church of the Nazarene. I believe in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I believe that all things are possible with God. Christianity teaches this but has trouble accepting the "ALL" part. Why is it so hard? Christianity and the Bible, I believe, were tainted, from the time the Romans made Christianity the state religion and also through medieval times as kings dictated the translation of books and scrolls. Martin Luther disregarded the book of Revelation altogether (I was raised Lutheran). God gave man free will so why is it so hard to accept that man, for ulterior motives, altered the word. Man has disobeyed God since Adam and Eve. We are also taught to glorify God in all we do. I'm not justifying anything here but if our heart is right and we use these experiences and skills for good and to his glory then I believe there is nothing wrong here. It's when we have the "Love" of money, or career, or AP, or sports where it becomes more important than God, that it becomes a tool of the devil. We are eternal beings, that is in the bible.

Allanon,
I see a lot of judgement in your post. FWIW, Love as Jesus did.

[Tao]

And also i have this question.. that i never understood when reding the Holy Bible:
Ii writes in the Holy Bible that God can see everything and know everything.. But there is somewhere where God is speaking: "Adam where are you.. Why are you hiding ?"
Why is that ? That is after Adam and Eve ate that apple..

[Allanon]

quote: Christianity and the Bible, I believe, were tainted, from the time the Romans made Christianity the state religion and also through medieval times as kings dictated the translation of books and scrolls.

Are there any Christians on this board with any faith whatsoever? Not to be judgemental but if there is a perfect God like Christianity supports than whatever is in the Bible is TRUE AND INCORUPTABLE. The message that needs to be conveyed to man is there even if the curruptable Holy Roman Empire was the tool that translated the Bible into its current form.

As far as Astral Projection is concerned I beleive that you must look at the fruits of what is being done. If you are being led to beleive that you will live forever without the blood of Chrsit than it is a FALSE SPIRIT that is influencing you. But if you are projecting around and have the Holy Spirit guiding you than there is less of a problem there. Leaving your body without supernatural interference like what happens to those in the Bible is like trying to walk on water without the help of God. YOU ARE NOT THE CAUSE OF ANY MIRACLE AND LEAVING YOUR BODY IS JUST THAT.

When you die you are dead. Period. Any NDE or astral projection that says otherwise is the fruit of Lucifer. In order to inherit eternal life you must be aligned with Jesus Christ. He is the only One with the power to conquer death.

[Nerezza]

Are there any Christians on this board with any faith whatsoever?  


To defend Christianity on this board is not a matter of faith, but patience, while to share it is an exercise in insanity. Im afraid im out of patience and my sanity is already suspect.

[Makaveli]

Allanon

How exactly does Christ outlaw astral projecting and where are you getting this information?  What you need to realise is what you are trying to force on everyone is just your own personal beleifs and beliefs don't shape reality.  I certainly beleive in Chirst but not Christianity anymore because of all the ignorance like this.  Even though I believe in Christ I don't think he is the only way because if that were true there is no telling how many people would be in hell compared to heaven and that is not a characteristic of a loving God.  About the bible I don't reject it but I don't think it's the infalible word of God because of all the contradictions and odd things in there.  Shouldn't Christians also believe they will live forever after they die if they believe in eternal life?

This page here realates to this because it deals with NDEs being satanic and it answers the typical religious arguments against it so I suggest everyone check it out.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen01.html

[travelinbob]

Allanon:

Your intolarance is what book burning is all about. You fear of other people's ideas and you blame anything that does not fit into your little dogmatic box of believes on the mytholgy of the devil. Your intolarance is the type that made women with traditional knowldge of herbs and medicines burn at the stake, at the urging of the medical establishment of the 16th century. You are no better than radicals like Osama bin Laden. You take a good book with very vague teachings and which has been politicaly manipulated by the former Roman empire (i.e. the Vatican in the 4th century) into its present state, and claim its The word of God??? And how do you know this? You don't. You just have faith and a few self-fulfilling prophecies (a war in the middle east? duh!!).  

So the validty of your believes is equal to the believes of a native in the amazon.

What next Allanon? Burn a few non-christian place of worship?? Bomb a few abortion clinics? Dance with poisonous snakes? Another Inquisition? More witchhunting? Read your History. Thats one thing about you radicals: you only read what your pastor or priest approves. Expand your Mind. Don't let others give you YOUR opinion.

And by the way, meditation IS a form of prayer. Why do you fear it?

[LA FORET MAUVE]

quote:Originally posted by Allanon

Let me know of any spirit that can dare stand up face to face to the One True God that created them all.

Oh i know one...you. How can you say that you KNOW ? (not very humble in my opinion)
Who are you to say that you know that all in the Bible is true ?
Can you answer honestly to this question:
Did you REALLY (i mean really) met Jesus in person ? Or God ?
Don't you think that it is time to start thinking by yourself and try to go beyond what some people pretended to have heard from others people and written in a book ? Did you ever been in another dimension, met a spirit or having a near death experience ? Do you think we all must waiting stupidly until we are dead to discover the truth beyond death ? What do you propose then ? To pray ? And after ? Is this an efficient technique to realise the totality of yourself ? Did God gave you this wonderful body to waste it, staying eyes closed and totally closed to the infinity of the universe ?
I have been a Christian too, did all the sacraments (except the last one [])...so i know what is in the Bible, i know what are the teachings, i even been in a monastery for some time !!!
I don't condamn the religion (even if i am "vaccinated" for it know) but i condamn your attitude wich will not help you to meet God at all believe me. Start experiencing, leave your books ! The Bible became the new golden idol, take care []
Again sorry for my english.
PS: there are other spirits than Christ, and if you think there are not as powerful and don't exist...you're going to have a monumental surprise one of these days