The Neverending Thread (was SATAN DECEIVES YOU)

[Beth]

exothen:


I took a three month course in Biblical Archaeology and studied all of the progress that has been made.  I have read the reports and studies of the archaeologists themselves. I was going to go on a dig myself, but the trip was cancelled due to American travel advisories in the Middle East.

[no_leaf_clover]

quote:Astral projection without the Word leads to the false notion of immoratality of the soul.

I don't know about anybody else, but I think I'd rather have my consciousness completely die off than to sit around worshipping God's greatness for all eternity. Pretty vain of God to have that happen, too.

Just thought I'd interject and make an butt of myself. Narrow Path might not even have that idea of Heaven for all I know. []

[Mustardseed]

Dear Beth

What a wonderful sunny morning here where I am hope you are all well too. I have thought a lot about the different posts and tried to find my focus, however I find myself continually distracted by the way the thread progresses and having to rethink things almost constantly. I have some problem with the way you argue your points and would like to ask you about them.

Let me first reiterate that I am not hinging my faith in Jesus and the Bible on Archaeology or church history. I have not been to Church in maybe a decade I believe it to be as far from true Christianity as Communism is from capitalism and have no vested interest in trying to support defend or in others ways excuse the organized churches (Churchanity as I will call it) I believe that they, with the aid of zealots like Narrow Path have done more to hurt the cause of Christ than the combined forces of Evil in every sphere of existence.  

My problem with the thread and your posts is this. I find that you argue in a self contradicting and confusing manner. On one hand you say. I have picked out some qoutes.

(Beth Said)
"I have seen no such proof"

indicating you need proof to be convinced, while on the other you say:

"I have only been on this board for a few days now, and everyone immediately started pushing "for proof" of my position"

indicating that you expect folks to believe what you say with out any proof.
(end quote)

Your own way of discussing things indicate a strong faith based world view, appearing to be a result of a conscious decision to disbelieve, possibly resulting from a series of incidents, but seemingly only based on your own intuitive feelings. As I said before it seems apparent that you do not believe in the Bible and are doing what you can to justify your position.

(Beth said)

" I feel as though I have finally been liberated from a lifetime of deep-in-my-heart suspicion and sadness.

"Many of us have struggled with the fact that what the Church teaches ..............At least I know that I have. ...... I intuitively knew that what the Church offered us—was not the whole story. I was driven to "figure it out"

"I took the path of searching for the answers in the very scriptures that resonated within me regardless of how the Church interpreted them"

"I have to take the position that it depends upon the person, and upon how willing they are to "allow the divine to come into them," rather than falling into the FALSE belief that..........."

(End quote)

Now to me this is not a problem. I agree with you that the "proof" of the Bible's claim is the hottest debated subject this century and will likely not be solved in this forum. However I was corrected on the thread by Robert who said said to me:

The whole idea of the thread on early christianity is to examine and discuss the origins of the NT and the foundations of christianity, particularly early christianity. If you find this exploration disconcerting and would rather stick to personal faith-based belief, fine; that's okay. But please understand that that topic is not for discussing matters of personal faith and belief.
(end quote)

Robert also said :

Religious fundamentalist arguments and statements are generally one-sided and absolute and they leave no room for discussion...eg, 'believe my way or be damned' is a wide theme
(end qoute)

I would say your line and his is more believe our way or be decieved. Either side claiming to know better than the other.

(Robert further stated)
One point concerning archaeological evidence cited in this post, that is claimed to support bible events: the evidence cited has been gathered by Christian-minded archaeologists who's main purpose .......is aimed at validating bible events as being historically accurate. Evidence gained in this way is highly biased and thus not internationally acceptable in the actual fields of archaeology and history. You will find this kind of evidence being presented as 'fact' in many bible-oriented magazines, books and papers. But these are the only places where such things (Christian propaganda) are accepted.

This single-minded approach to this kind of research is very unscientific, and results are therefore subjective and dubious to say the least....... The results of any such study will obviously be flawed as it would be heavily biased in their favour
(end qoute)

Well Robert and Beth would that not go both ways? If You consider yourselves to be "neutral" and "unbiased" I think you are decieving yourself. I think you have a heavy bias against the Bible being proven to be true. To say that you want to evaluate all findings neutrally is just not possible. People have their own agandas and noone is Neutral. Is it not discriminating to say that if one believes in something like the Bible one os excluded from arguing why and ones research is automatically duobted?. You also have built your life on your lack of adherence to its tenants.

As I stated above Beth I never claimed to "know"  or have "proof" or anything else I always stated that I believe the Bible is the revealed living Word of God inspite of alterations adaptions or whatever, but it seems to me that you do. You do come across as a scientist , researcher, archeaologist and seem to have the air around you that you "know stuff" and " have proof"  rather than admitting that your view is nothing but YOUR FAITH  and  YOUR BEELIEF

You often quote what seems to be your opinion and paints a picture of how you BELIEVE it could have happened

(Beth said)

(about Constantine )It was also his agenda (assumption)

First, biblical scripture, IF UNDERSTOOD PROPERLY contains a vast wealth of knowledge........(assumption)

The term 'paradise' is also used in and BELIEVED to be.......(assumption)

Rabbi Moses de Leon, BELIEVED to be......(assumption)....

The "truth" that will be communicated by me, is that the bible is not what most people think it is IN MY OPINION, it is not a true historical document ..........(assumption)

IN MY OPINION, the biggest error the Church has made is making the claim that it is the "only way."(your opinion)

Anyway, Constantine knew this—(assumption)

Constantine liked this idea. But—as one legend has it,...(Legend!!!!!!????Legend go figure).....

"And they picked the "simplest" ones, because Augustine......... knew that they needed to "KEEP IT SIMPLE" so the common people could understand it. (assumption)
(End quote)

I derive from this, (I assume, I believe and it is my opinion) that you have an agenda!!!!What the agenda is I am not sure of but reading the following quote I will let the participants of the forum decide for themselves.

(Beth said)

I have been offered the opportunity to help those "who want to know" exactly "how" they can find "themselves" and "their experience" written within these ancient texts

Christianity has yet to catch up with the progressive nature of our society I went to school with a lot of very progressive people that are training to be tomorrow's ministers. They will eventually change the face of Christianity from their pulpits. It will just take time--and perhaps a lot of time.(end qoute)(friends do have an influence on us dont they)

I personally believe that you are on a crusade of your own, to Change Christianity , as you know it, and maybe dislike it. I also believe that you are way smarter than me and I will not have a chance if I allow myself to be drawn into your entire universe of personal belief, but that I will only change MY BELIEF SYSTEM to YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM, and become your convert. In a world where the truth is debatable, moral is up to the individual and BELIEFS are disguised as Valid proof and ABSOLUTES are no longer.

Regards Mustardseed

[Adrian]

Greetings Mustardseed,

quote:Originally posted by Mustardseed
I personally believe that you are on a crusade of your own, to Change Christianity , as you know it, and maybe dislike it. I also believe that you are way smarter than me and I will not have a chance if I allow myself to be drawn into your entire universe of personal belief, but that I will only change MY BELIEF SYSTEM to YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM, and become your convert. In a world where the truth is debatable, moral is up to the individual and BELIEFS are disguised as Valid proof and ABSOLUTES are no longer.

Regards Mustardseed

With respect, you are coming across as being intimidated by the excellent, rational and highly factual information being presented by Beth. Personally I believe that there is no other way to present such information. One liners or quotes from the bibles simply will not do when we are discussing complexities such as these of such far reaching importance. All anyone needs is an open mind in these discussions.

However, your emphasis on "belief system" says alot. I would ask you to read Robert's excellent article "The Catch Basket Concept:

http://www.astralpulse.com/articles/robert/articles_44.htm

The problem with being trapped in a belief system is that it becomes extremely difficult to separate yourself from it. It becomes a way of life, a comfort and even something to buffer the fear of death. It is very easy to see why so many people hold to belief systems. But after all, a belief system is just that "a system of belief" by definition and which has been contrived by other people for their own purposes. The only real truth is that which you know to be the truth and you will never find your own truth encapsulated in a "belief system".

Most people in these forums are seeking their own truth through discussion and sharing of information and experiences. Everyone has the freewill to accept or reject anything they see written here. Beth is not promoting a belief system I assure you of that, or conducting any sort of anti-christian crusade, she is rather seeking to go far beyond the official creed, dogma and doctrines of the orthodox churches to present evidence which goes to the true origins of Christianity, and more importantly the true mission of Jesus. When the world knows these things people can finally free themselves and start to fulfil their true destiny. The world, and particualarly  religion needs people like Beth who are brave and intelligent enough to discover and relate the true origins and meaning of Christianity.

There is very considerable evidence out there, people must find the strength to accept it even if it goes against their "belief system".

Thank you very much for your values contributions to these topics.

With best regards,

Adrian.


However

[Mustardseed]

[Qquote]

With respect, you are coming across as being intimidated by the excellent, rational and highly factual information being presented by Beth. Personally I believe that there is no other way to present such information. One liners or quotes from the bibles simply will not do when we are discussing complexities such as these of such far reaching importance. All anyone needs is an open mind in these discussions.

(Answer)
Dear Administrator
Yes I am. I feel that I am not being heard , and my points are not being addressed.I spite of that I have kept my cool and considered her and Roberts point of view. I have spent hours on the net and at Book shops to research their claim and have thought a lot about it and prayed about it (though many of you dont believe in that) and I have come to a conclusion that I will have my say. I also find it disheartening and condesending to be addressed in this manner by you. My argument and problem with fairness is this. I think it is unfair that while I can not (being a layman) prove anything and seeing I am also not allowed to include qoutes from likeminded people who believe as I do, as they are not "valid", yet, I am forced to view these allegations with respect and openness. Please remember that I was not the Bible basher, but merely took up the challenge from Robert to debate.

(You said)
However, your emphasis on "belief system" says alot. (Please explain further Adrian what are you insinuating this is to me intimidation) I would ask you to read Robert's excellent article "The Catch Basket Concept:

http://www.astralpulse.com/articles/robert/articles_44.htm

(ok I will do )

(You said)
The problem with being trapped in a belief system is that it becomes extremely difficult to separate yourself from it.

(I agree you seem to have all those fears as well,)

It becomes a way of life, a comfort and even something to buffer the fear of death.

(couldnt agree more)

It is very easy to see why so many people hold to belief systems. But after all, a belief system is just that "a system of belief" by definition and which has been contrived by other people for their own purposes.

(OOPPS i DONT Agree here. This is an assumption.!!On your partThough I do believe in the Bible I have also proven it true I have lived a life of a Missionary for 30 years, I have seen healings numerous times, experiences 3 encounters with angelic beings and used the name of Jesus for more exorsisms than I care to remember with pretty good results. You obviously know little about the life of a Missionary and think we are all like Narrow Path, and you obviously know nothing about me!!)

The only real truth is that which you know to be the truth and you will never find your own truth encapsulated in a "belief system".

(I have OBEs I prophecy Channel and if I had wanted to stay closed I would never have talked to you nor have his books or been on this Forum)

Beth is not promoting a belief system I assure you of that,

(what a claim!! what do you know about her or what she is trying to do. At most you know what she says she is trying to do)

or conducting any sort of anti-christian crusade,

(?)

The world, and particualarly  religion needs people like Beth who are brave and intelligent enough to discover and relate the true origins and meaning of Christianity.

(she sure converted or persuaded you. But how about if we let her answer ok Adrian)

Thank you very much for your values contributions to these topics.

Thanks Adrian
I do appreciate your comments I really do, but I do not agree. I have not qouted any scriptures to you and seeing you dont like that here Adrian but here is a nice qoute "there is none as blind as those who will not see" With all due respect Adrian take a look in the mirror.
Regards Mustardseed

[exothen]

Beth,

What did you learn in your biblical archaeological course?  Not that one prof's opinion is going to settle this, but just to add it to the discussion.

Adrian,

I just wanted to point out a couple of things I noticed in your response to Mustardseed.

quote:But after all, a belief system is just that "a system of belief" by definition and which has been contrived by other people for their own purposes.

You are assuming that a belief system is contrived by people for their own purposes.  However, it is possible that there is a "belief system" which was not contrived by people.

quote:The only real truth is that which you know to be the truth and you will never find your own truth encapsulated in a "belief system".

Problem.  Some people think they know things which are the truth, but some of those things are not true.  Therefore, that idea is false.  Take the flat-earth theory, for example.  People "knew" it to be the truth for a long time, but yet it was proved false.  Truth is absolute, so that which is true, is true for all people, in all places, and at all times.  There is no such thing as "one's own truth."

quote:she is rather seeking to go far beyond the official creed, dogma and doctrines of the orthodox churches to present evidence which goes to the true origins of Christianity, and more importantly the true mission of Jesus.

Bigger problem.  You are assuming that she knows the "true origins of Christianity" and the "true mission of Jesus."  This contradicts your earlier statement that we will not find our own truth in a belief system, since you are assuming that we will find truth in her belief system.

You are just as much trapped in a belief system as everybody else on this planet.

[Mustardseed]

Whew finally someone is getting some similar ideas to my own. I totally agree the TRUTH is out there and it is the truth nomatter what any of us thinks. Exoten ! you better listen in here . Not that I want an supporter but I had not even seen the last point you made but agree, and I want fair treatment[]. Also a made up system of beliefs could also be made and inspired by the Holy Spirit, if one agrees with the notion that one such thing could exist.

[Beth]

Mustardseed:

I have had enough of this.  This is SO ridiculous [xx(].

If you do not want to read my posts--then don't read them.  If my posts are troubling you--then pray about them.  

Either way--your slanderous comments about me have gone far enough. My posts are not about ME unless I specifically state "In my opinion" or if it is obviously of my personal experience.  My posts are about what I have learned through 35 years of study and searching through Christianity and its roots.  

So, read my posts or don't read my posts--BUT STOP WITH THE PERSONAL ATTACKS.

[Mustardseed]

(You said)
I have had enough of this.  This is SO ridiculous [xx(].

(I said)
I dont think it is

(you said)
If you do not want to read my posts--then don't read them.  If my posts are troubling you--then pray about them.

(I said)
I have done so Beth

(You said)
Either way--your slanderous comments about me have gone far enough.My posts are not about ME unless I specifically state "In my opinion" or if it is obviously of my personal experience.  My posts are about what I have learned through 35 years of study and searching through Christianity and its roots.

(I said)
Sorry Beth, you seem to want to make comments and allegations and then turn around and say "its not about me". Well it is about you. You are what you preach Beth.
 
(You said)
So, read my posts or don't read my posts--BUT STOP WITH THE PERSONAL ATTACKS.

(I said)
are you advocating I accept everything you say as truth, or do you allow me the right to challenge your statements. You have done a lot of assuming what is is the motive of the Christians what they think and so on. You make assumtions about what everyoner else thinks challenging their motives,incl. Constantine, christians, popes etc etc. Yet you do not want to be challenged on your own motives. !!You want us to accept all that you say as the truth or as the result of your research.  You seem to have issues and I think they are influencing your judgement. This is my opinion. I feel I have every right to question your "research" and Belief system.

Kind regards Mustardseed

[Tab]

Yeesh, if I were you christians, I would be ecstatic to know that my belief system still holds some truth and esoteric meaning and isn't just a complete bunch of confused dogma.
Well, whatever floats your boat I guess. :/

[Narrow Path]

If you want esoteric go into the woods for a week and not eat and than do some Vine of the Dead.

If you want the peace of God just take it easy and read the Word.

Esoteric seeking can be interesting but leads to a lot of unwanted stress.

[Beth]

I have NO IDEA WHY I am responding yet ONE MORE TIME...and I pray that this is the last time that I take the bait.

But Mustardseed I guess you have a need to know this:

My undergraduate studies were at a private SOUTHERN BAPTIST UNIVERSITY, with a major in philosophy and a minor in religion.  I then attended five years of graduate study at a private, PREDOMINATELY CHRISTIAN University, receiving my MA in Religion. All of my knowledge and training has been through a CHRISTIAN University curriculum.

and Narrowpath--This will tell you nothing about me or my beliefs except that they are not your own, but I will answer your question.

No. I do not "believe" in a "physical resurrection" of Jesus. The whole basis of such an idea stems from...no...wait...I am NOT EVEN going to bother....

Another poster (I am sorry, I do remember your name[xx(]..but thanks for the quote![]) said it simply enough--"What need would anyone have of a "physical body" in heaven anyway?  Well Put! []

[Robert Bruce]

G'day Folks!

Mustardseed, I totally agree to agree to disagree with you on these matters, and on any other matter for that matter. And I am sure that Adrian and Beth and many others will also agree to disagree with you.

But the exploration of the origins and evolution of the NT will of course continue full steam ahead in the appropriate threads.

The unphilosophical way this particular thread has evolved with all its ranting and raving is verging on the ridiculous, I think every sane person will agree.


Take care, Robert.

[Mustardseed]

I will agree to disagree Robert and maybe leave it at that. I do not have anything against you all, with Beth as the expert discussing the philosopical understanding of the origin of the Bible. It seems to me to be plain Gnostisism to me. Gnostics have been existing as long as Christians and I am fine with that.
Regards Mustardseed

[Beth]

Mustardseed:

quote:or do you allow me the right to challenge your statements. You have done a lot of assuming what is is the motive of the Christians what they think and so on. You make assumtions about what everyoner else thinks challenging their motives,incl. Constantine, christians, popes etc etc. Yet you do not want to be challenged on your own motives.

By giving you my educational background, I tried to show you that this is NOT just my opinion, assumptions, or motives, but rather what I have learned while obtaining my education and degrees. But, I should have known as soon as I told you "my crendentials" you would make a snide comment about that too.  

quote: Well then dont bother then Beth. Just explode stamp your little masters and Phd feet in the University floor and wipe it with anyone who questions you.

But...you know what Mustardseed?  I guess that really doesn't matter <shrug> I can't care what you think of me personnally.

You can certainly challenge what I say Mustardseed--but you aren't really challenging ME...you are challenging the history of Christianity.  Since you do not know me personally, I am choosing to assume you are just trying to "shoot the messenger."

The origin of Christianity, the establishment of Christianity as The Roman Catholic Church through the Council of Nicaea (there were actually several councils called) and the other things of which I speak -- ARE HISTORY.  If you don't believe me...buy the books and read them for yourself. I cannot give you years of study in a relative few internet message board posts. And I will not debate it with you any longer. I am not avoiding answering your "long, long, posts" but writing these posts takes a lot of time, and you would not believe me anyway.

So, here are a few of the textbooks.  These are standard curriculum for the study of Christianty in American Academia--Seminaries included. These books explain the basics.

The History of the Church
by Eusebius,
translated by G. A. Williamson

The Early Church: The Story of Emergent Christiantity from the Apostolic Age to the dividing way between the Greek East and the Latin West
by Henry Chadwick

Western Society and the Church in The Middle Ages
by R.W. Southern

Origen: The Bible and Philosophy in the Third Century Church
by Joseph Wilson Trigg

Origen: On First Principles
translated by G. W. Butterworth

Early Christian Doctrines
by J.N.D. Kelly

A History of Christian Thought Volumes I, II, and III
by Justo L. Gonzalez

These first three are all currently published by The Penguin History of the Church Series (there are actually six in all I think that will take you all the way through to present day) and should not be that expensive.  The others are offered by other publishers, and may cost a little more. You should be able to order them all from Amazon.com, or check them out from your local Public Library.

Read these books Mustardseed...not my posts. It will take you quite a while to read them, but after you do, you will see that the information I am sharing is true, for all I am trying to do is share my education with those who cannot study Christianity in an academic setting.  If my comments are "my own opinion" I will always try to state that.

By the way, I understand how upsetting all of this can be.  Over the past ten years I have had more than one spiritual crisis. Many in fact. The things you will read in these books will give you a very different understanding of the origins of Christianity and its subsequent development.  It is oftentimes very difficult to swallow. And, I wish they would go ahead and teach this in Adolescent and Adult Sunday School classes...

[Soulfire]

Mustard,

I person does not need "credentials" to share what they have come to believe and understand.  No credential anybody could ever have would matter anyway if what that person was saying didn't feel right to you personally.  All she is doing here is sharing HER studies and insights.  Nobody is claiming she is "right" or that you are "wrong".  She is simply sharing what she has learned so that other people can consider what she has to say and decide for themselves?  

--Soulfire

[Passionate-fool]

Beth,

I seem to remember you INTERPRETING the scripture earlier and expecting us to swallow that as "history" like the councils and all the rest.

[Beth]

The interpretations that I offer are ONE OF MANY, as interpreted by the earliest Christians.  As the centuries passed, the interpretations grew and changed. Just like the interpretations I offer, the different interpretations between today's Protestantism and Catholicism, as well as the different interpretations between the many demoninations within Protestant Christianity, there are many different ways to read the scriptures.  For example, some demoninations today "sprinkle" and some "immerse" for their baptisms.  Some demoninations practice the "speaking and interpreting of tongues." Some offer the Eucharist (The Lord's Supper) several times a week, but others only offer it monthly or quarterly. The first few centuries of Christianity was no different.  All of these things are based upon a "different reading of scripture."  Biblical scripture contains "layers upon layers of meaning." Christianity as it stands today reflects that very thing.

On the Councils:  What I offer on that is not an interpretation of scripture, that is the history of the Christian religion and how it survived a period of religious turmoil that we today cannot even imagine. You think what I say is outrageous, what if you were told that you "couldn't believe the way that you do" and if you were caught practicing it, you knew that your entire family could be murdered because of your beliefs?  This is the way it was for centuries during the dawn of the first millennium.

Passionate Fool...I do not "expect" anything from anybody here, except to be free from harrassment in the threads where I have put forth topics to be discussed and to be free from personal attacks.  No one "has" to accept the interpretations that I offer. We can all sleep safely tonight--because today--we are all free to believe and think what we will.

[Mustardseed]

Hi Beth I noticed you became the moderator. Boy would I have liked that job[]. Well I will be watching the threads and I am not offended by you []. We just got off to a wrong start.I still feel a bit left out in the cold and ignored and my points (which were many) are now but un answered history. I also do believe that we are on opposite sides and I do feel that your "debate" is biased and Belief oriented. But so what[] . Agree to disagree I say. Lets post and if we dont see eye to eye so what. No censorship though, promise?
Regards Mustardseed
Your yellow stars are so pretty mine are just grey[]

[Beth]

Mustardseed:

As long as the posts "stay clean" and do not harrass or attack people personally, AND as long as the topic threads stay clear of blockages that take the topic off course, everything will be fine. Other than a bit of re-organizing from time to time, everything will remain the same.

Regards,
Beth

[James S]

Mustardseed,

At the time I write this you anly need another 357 posts and you get some really nice shiny gold stars. See, with the exception of Robert and Beth, Most moderators started out with gold stars. You notice our stars aren't as shiny? That's the corruption from being a moderator tarnishing them.[]

James.

[Narrow Path]

quote:No. I do not "believe" in a "physical resurrection" of Jesus. The whole basis of such an idea stems from...no...wait...I am NOT EVEN going to bother....

Thank you for clearing that up Beth.

Warning Against Antichrists

18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[4] 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us--even eternal life.
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.

[Narrow Path]

Why would God allow the "lie" of the resurrection to be called the "Truth" that so many True believers adhere to?

If you read the Bible from cover to cover the THEME of the death and resurrection of Jesus is what it is all about. The fallen nature of man, the hopelesness of mans attempts to reconsile himself, and Christ's ultimate victory on he cross.

It is hard to miss those key points.

Oh thats right Gnostics believe God is not perfect.[xx(]

[timeless]

Dear Beth,

You probably know this already but please do not feel you must fight Narrow Path.  He is on a crusade.  He will mow all down in his path not seeing the hurt he is doing...to himself.  He is so negative and reactionary it is not funny.  

You are liked and appreciated.  Narrow Paths quotes are interesting in a bizarre way...as long as one is not emotionally invested in anything he says.  The problem is he does PM and attempt to get people emotionally invested.  It is not easy to let these things go but it is best to.  I am so sadened and tired by arguements on this site that it is not funny.  Nothing is gained and we all end up losing time and respect for each other.  We lose time that could be spent writing and reading about amazingly interesting things.

Sigh,
timeless

[Beth]

Narrowpath,

quote: Why would God allow ...

Why does God allow a lot of things?  In my opinion, it is because God is unlimited.  

God is omnipotent--all powerful. God is omniscient--all knowing. God is omnipresent--present everywhere.

Narrowpath, I believe that God can do what ever God wants to do.  And if God is in charge of all things, then God is in charge of all things--if God created all things, then God created all things--including the Gnostics, the Christians, the Jews, the Muslims, the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Wiccans, etc., etc.  

Bottom line, if God created all things, then God created everything.  If you have a problem with the perfection of God, a problem with what God has created, then I suggest you go to the source--take your concerns to God--

Regards,
Beth