Astral Symbols

[Nagual]

Is the symbol itself that important...?  I think that it would be more the intent you associate with it that would count...  What do you think?

[Tisha]

Take a picture of a tree you like (I'm not kidding!) If you are a Westerner, this is the best symbol to meditate upon.

About meaning:  After centuries and centuries of application of meaning, a symbol takes on a "life" of its own.  So beware of any cavalier attitude such as "it means whatever I think it means."

If you like, you can create your own unique mandala and assign your own meaning to it.  Much safer than working with a symbol you don't understand!

[Nagual]

quote:After centuries and centuries of application of meaning, a symbol takes on a "life" of its own.

In people's minds or on physical objects, maybe...  otherwise, i don't think so.  Show me a very used/famous symbol that I have no clue about,  it won't have any effect on me.  Now, if I know that symbol and believe it has some "powers", or if it is a physical object that could store some "powers", that's different.

[Murt]

Sorry Nagual, I have personal experience of working with a symbol, I thought was for a certain limited purpose. I did it for one reason but it  affected me in astonishing way, I couldn't describe, and never expected.
Your right the intent, is important, but the Symbol, is also very important, even if you do not know what it is, it will still produce a result.
I have a feeling, that some Symbols are new, and some are older than the universe.
Thanks Tisha.. but I have a good working relationship with symbols, they'er very powerful, thats why I like them. They represent living realities on the planes.

[Nagual]

The fact that you "worked" with a symbol should answer your unasked question ... [][]  You don't seem to have a neutral opinion towards symbols.  It might work because you make it work by bieleving it works...  For me, rituals are just placebos...  Don't get me wrong; I am convinced they are powerfull tools (in overcoming/bypassing doubts)!  But, at the same time, they make you "blind" in that you don't think you could have got the same result without them...  I know many will disagree with that.  But I tend to hate to rely on external stuff when I can do it by myself.  Of course, it's more difficult without these powerfull tools, but it's the price to pay to be free from them.

[Murt]

Can I say that if  a person using a particular symbol, is easily led, and  view symbols as the master,  then they are going to land themselves in trouble thats too big for them.. Because nothing is your master.   Keeping in mind that you are the master, and  these are tools, they may assist, (not help, as you do not need help) you to attain other things. I think it's a bit like trying to climb a very big mountain, you can climb  the whole thing yourself, or you could use a chairlift, or a helicopter.
Symbols are like the helicopter, they help you to get to the top, a bit quicker.
I think what your saying is, when a person becomes reliant on a particular symbol, to achieve a certain result. That would also be very bad, as when you rely on anyone, or anything, it will let you down, without fail, always. This is the way it should be.
I don'y rely on symbols, I use them. I can use them, because I don't need them. They serve me, not the other way around.
As regards a placebo, I cannot convince you, that they are not. But I can prove it[]

[Lilith]

The Moon card would work... do you normally work with the Tarot?
If you're interested in the Kabbala and it's symbols, there's lots of websites available with the appropriate info, just follow your own senses. Personally, I would recommend you go with symbolism from within a system you're familiar with or that is from your own heritage because it will just be that much easier to work with - you're likely to get better results, faster.

Nagual, I understand your sentiment, but I disagree.
Even "mundanely" we know about the validity of subliminal messages, whether in text, sound, or visuals... probably touch, taste, and smell too, for that matter.

Just because we are not consciously aware of the symbolism of a thing does not mean that we are not reacting to it on another level.
Breaking away from the subliminal influence of something can be a painstaking chore requiring deliberate action and serious introspection to even recognise all the nuances, let alone remove the hooks in our though-patterns.

[Tisha]

yessssssss! another woman in the magic section!  Yayyyyyyyyy! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]

[Nagual]

quote:I think it's a bit like trying to climb a very big mountain, you can climb the whole thing yourself, or you could use a chairlift, or a helicopter.

I totaly understand and agree with that.  But it does not change the fact that I prefer to climb by myself the big mountain and not use the chairlift or helicopter...  And if you get used to the chairlift/helicopter too much, you might not be able to climb without them anymore... so you become dependant.

quote:Just because we are not consciously aware of the symbolism of a thing does not mean that we are not reacting to it on another level.

As it does not mean that we are reacting to it either.  I never said it had no effects; I said that we might create this effect.  The trick is that there are so many different interpretations of the same symbol that I can't agree that this symbol has a particular power of its own...  Or, if it does, this power follows the person's belief...  Just look at the little "butterfly" ink stains on folded paper test...  You see in a symbol what you want to see in it.

[Lilith]

)<waves to Tisha>
[]

Respectfully, Nagual, I was responding to this;

quote: Show me a very used/famous symbol that I have no clue about, it won't have any effect on me.

Whether or not we consciously have knowledge of the meaning - or supposed meaning - of a symbol it can and will work on our subconscious or through our higher conscious, unless of course we've already worked all the "threads" or "hooks" out.

The defining criteria for symbolism specifies as such, psychologically speaking.  Even on a more practical level they speak so clearly to us that we use basic symbols as communication and teaching tools.

I do agree that we should not become too dependant on them in our own practices, but my point is simply that we can and will be influenced by symbols on levels we are not consciously aware of, unless we conscientiously examine each symbol that comes into our sphere of influence (which I recommend doing for anyone using symbols in metaphysical work, anyhow.)

A quick example is colour. We know that colour influences our moods, some colours can even give us the illusion of temperature change.
Yet another way is cultural use of colour... if you see a baby wrapped in a pink blanket, what's your first thought?  The colour for mourning can be black, or red, or white (or another colour) - depending on which culture, thus a person's instinctive reaction upon seeing that colour can be radically different from someone else's.

Choosing to do without the use of symbolism is admirable, conscientiously doing so completely is easier said than done.
[]

I recently eavesdropped on a fascinating conversation regarding the possibility of some of our scent-memories being actually gene-encoded.
Absolutely fascinating!

I don't think it was said that the symbols had their own power (at least I didn't read it that way []) but that they might have an influence we are not aware of... which is what I'm saying, that they can/do - at least until we carefully and honestly examine our inner selves in regard to individual specifics.
[]

Tisha is very correct, do not use symbols thoughtlessly or carelessly, sometimes they pack a punch you'd never suspect from cursory examination.

[Nagual]

Hum, I think that we are running in circles... [][]

So, do we agree that symbols hold as much power as we (un)consiously think they have, based on our historical/cultural/traditional/beliefional/anythingional personal background...?

Just by curiousity, could you point me to the most powerfull symbol you know so that I can see what effect it has on me?  And, since I am claiming that I don't (un)consiously believe in symbols power, you can point to a positive or negative one...  I don't mind.  [:O][]

[Nagual]

I feel like a kid putting his hand on the grill to feel what hot feels like... []

[LA FORET MAUVE]

...ok then try to meditate on those two symbols separately !
I will tell later wich is wich...














and then...

[Murt]

Sorry, LA FORET MAUVE I can't resist ! one is cessation, away from the Lord, and One is going towards the Lord, or simply balance.
Balance is the key, in other words the way to becoming a Messiah, is, simply put, towards balance. Living in full awareness, being now, let it be, yes, ect.
The other is towards imbalance, obsession, getting power through negativity, the main reason that keeps serial killers interested, in their path.

We Humans like to think that we are at the center of the Universe some times! , and without our power, nothing has any real meaning. I feel that some symbols came into being, before we collectively created time/space. They have a DIRECT connection/link to the thing, or force they represent. A bit like a computer terminal linked to a super computer down the street, the terminal, has the FULL power of the thing it represents, eg. the super computer. So the terminal, you could say was the outward symbol for the inner thing, the supercomputer. Using the power of the terminal, is what I prefer to do.

So by focusing on the symbol for God, there is a direct link to that being. By focusing on the symbol for a highly imbalanced spirit (what we would call a devil), we attract that being, or qualities it has to offer.
Nagual, you are surrounded, by symbols. Look around you, everything you see is an image, or symbol of the real thing, which exists on the planes. You can test this image or symbol, by holding a magnifying glass up, and looking through it, the image will be distorted. You are only interpreting light which goes through your eyes, which is changed into electrical energy. So nothing you see is real ! but the good thing is your brain not only interprets an image, you create it.
The more you image somthing, and the longer, using your image-ination, the more physical it becomes, until more and more energy is added, it literaly explodes into light, in the other levels, and displays an image, or symbol of itself on the physical plane. (conversations with God).
Going for a job, or other things in your life you must have worked with symbols, first.
You actually know all ready. Ever looked at a picture of a nice car, house ? or boat , or something you desire ? drooling over it, looking at it often, picturing what it would be like to own it. If you have ever done this, you have worked with symbols. some people know their power, and use them consiously.
They are so powerful, because, they are the LANGUAGE of the subconsious. So working with symbols, is working directly with the most incredible power you have.

[Nagual]

quote:Sorry, LA FORET MAUVE I can't resist !

Ahhhh, it was my surprise!!! [:O][xx(][]

quote:So working with symbols, is working directly with the most incredible power you have.

I agree on the "power you have" part...  Again, I agree that symbols are powerfull tools (as rituals can be); but that power is not in the symbol (or ritual) itself; but in the person looking at it, or meditating on it, or using it...  It's all in us; we just have problem being convinced about it.  These props/tools helps us to become convinced; but they are not necessary in the end.

[Lilith]

Yah, what Murt said.
[]

Nagual, how about the smell of cut grass, warm cinnamon or chalk dust?
Or how about the sound of water dripping, a jet flying overhead, or fire crackling?

Yes, symbols are what they mean to us... but my point is that what they mean to us is often deeper and more subliminal than meets the eye (pardon the pun).

We cannot arbitrarily deny the power of a symbol until we actually take the time and effort to examine our own inner selves, and very very carefully, because it's roots may run so far within our psyche as to be completely submerged.

Talking in circles, perhaps.
[]
I think, perhaps, part of the circle is in that you're suggesting that the symbols themselves are exterior triggers for interior reactions, which I agree with.
However, you also seem to be saying that those triggers don't matter or are negligible, and I'm saying that they work on us whether we are aware of them or not, and in fact will work unless we actively negate them.

Also, whereas they *are* triggers, if you read with Murt's explanation, it can also be said that the illusions of 'exterior' and 'interior' are not firm boundaries in regard to our use of and interactions with symbolism.

[Nagual]

quote:you also seem to be saying that those triggers don't matter or are negligible

Read again my posts: "I am convinced they are powerfull tools" and "Again, I agree that symbols are powerfull tools (as rituals can be)"...

I still like my placebo analogy...  Placebos can do "miracles"; but I personaly don't want to get stuck with them...  I love freedom and don't want to carry/depend on all this.

And now I giveup, I am tired, my brain hurts... []  You won! []
If you are happy with symbols, that's what matters in the end...
I am happy without them.

[Murt]

Nagual,
Stick with what your happy with, of course. But maybe you could do without your car, your house ect. so you can be free, you may say that is different, but not really, they are just aids to help you.
In fact a car, can set you free, freedom to go where you wish. You may become tied to it, but the car didn't do that, The person with the car did. It still has the ability to set you free. And so the symbol I used, set me free.
 Can I repeat myself by saying that a symbol, has a direct link with the thing it represents! like a plug in your wall, is like a symbol for the power station,  plug in and get all that power, of course the socket in the wall has no power, in itself, it is connected to something that does.
So the dichotomy is, it does have power, and it doesn't, also.

I have worked with a certain symbol, that I thought  was for attracting prosperity into my life, it did, but what I didn't know is that it affected me in many powerful ways. ( Of course it was the thing the symbol represented, the power lay ) Did you ever come across, maybe an older Guy, like the director of a large company ?. Some of these Guys, just have to look at a project, to get it working. Like having the Midas touch, or the Golden touch, you may have heard of. And you wonder, how did they do that so easily ?.

That is exactly what happened to me, which is very unusual for a Pices Man.
I would just have to focus on something, and it would work out-
I cannot describe the Joy it is bringing to my life, it's like wow a cloudy day, it's so dark and interesting, and amazing. Like the sunny feeling you may have felt, on a golden day you never forgot, as a child. I couldn't believe it, but that happened to me, and is still happening.
The Joy is simply stunning. The freedon. The Clensing that occured. My psyche, changed, my mentality, physical - everything.

It has transformed me as from my childhood, (which wasn't too good) I am different, in a good way, it has brought about a rebirth literaly, a REBIRTH.
There are other changes, which I won't go into because many people would not believe it, as they don't know me, and can't see it.

The symbol has changed me in incredible way. In a very Focused way.

I have the four leaf clover !


AS regards relying on symbols, you are only given them, when you are ready. It's one of life's ironic things, only when you are easily able to do something, are you given a tool, to do it!

So if I am fit enough, strong enough, have the right determination, boots, jacket, will, sincerity, mental ability, agility, ect. and can climb a mountain, no problem, ------- Then I will be given the helicopter. NOT before.
If I become unfit, loose interest,ect. the helicopter will be taken away, Do you understand ?

There is no hope of me becoming reliant on a particular symbol. I have learned many ways to be happy, besides a symbol, if I were to loose it.

I know how to get all of the above, without any symbol, and did it already. THAT is WHY I was given this symbol. I didn't need it, that is also why i was given the symbol. Because I learned to be happy without such help, then, I was given this.

The effects are permanent. I found out later, The symbol was linked to the particles of God, which I attracted into my life, but thinking I was going to get a bit of extra cash !
I was completly ignorant of it's effects.

I feel the symbol, is too sacred, to be given out like chewing gum to be chewed over, and then after a while, spat out. If someone sincerly wanted it, and felt the time was ready for them, they would have to e-mail me, provided they were sincere, I would assist all I can.

Unfortunatly, the symbols didn't do much for my spelling !
All came from God, and the Nazarian, every thing I have.

[Lilith]

Nagual, no disrespect intended, and it might be a communication error, but you seem to be missing my point.
Doing without the use of symbols is your absolute choice, and I do understand that you're talking about the deliberate usage, like in meditation and whatnot.

I also hear what you're saying, that people can easily beleive what they want, and if what they want to beleive is that they can't cross the street safely without their lucky rabbit foot tucked safely inside their left shoe... then they're likely to "jinx" themselves without it... create a false dependancy.

I agree. However, the point (one of them) that I was trying to make is that even when we decide to forgo their usage, symbols can and do influence us, and unless we actively explore our reactions (or lack of reaction) to them they will still influence us, perhaps in unusual and hidden ways... there are tons of every-day symbols that affect you without your active permission, because it needs your active efforts to negate their influence.

Alongside that is, when a symbol is actively used, as in meditation and such, we need to have real information of the meaning and nuances of that symbol because while the surface may seem clear and straight-forward, there might be unknown (or unwanted) depths to it.

Good discussion, not meaning to drag it out, though... sorry if it appears that way.
[]

[n/a]

quote:I still like my placebo analogy... Placebos can do "miracles"; but I personaly don't want to get stuck with them... I love freedom

HERE HERE!

[Murt]

Would anyone know the symbol/s for astral projection, maybe from the tree of life, qabalah. I looking for one, to put on a chart, to meditate on. Or if not thee symbol, a good symbol to make A.P. or the astral world, closer/more easy to enter.
I was thinking of using the Moon card, from the rider/waite deck,
any comments?