HELP ME PLEASE.....DOES GOD/JESUS REALLY EXIST????

[Mustardseed]

It is soo funny how a proper greeting and then some statements made by someone with a lot of stars can make an impression!!

Greetings Everyone, very effective and persuasive!

Well since Adrian did not say it, and probably assumes that everyone allready knows this, though some might not , I will clarify.

The above post os Adrians opinion!!!! . Just Adrians opinion[].And he is nobody special, he ain't Budda or Brama, and certainly not a Christian or a prophet or anyone else, and never claimed to be. He is just a guy who has a bunch of stars and administrates a webpage. He might think he knows a lot about the universe as many of us do, but he does not have the answers to the questions life asks. He has a few guesses however, thats all. His opinion is not based on anything else that the usual stuf opinions are made up off. Life experiences, hearsay, logic and the opinions of others.

The remark about Christianity is just his way of saying that he is not a Christian!! [].

Dear Adrian
I agree with you , God exists! He is Love !!and he inspires us to love, he is not trying to scare folks into hell but to love them into heaven. According to our faith, YOU (or I) are not God , you are made in the image of God, yes your Spirit not your body, and you have been given the ability to be "like" God. It is as if (metaphor) you are a Radio reciever made to recieve and transmit Gods words his love and answers to lifes questions. All you have to do is tune in, and it is the hand of faith that turns the knob. God is the broadcasting station he is the electricity as well. You are the faucet He is the water. He also has chosen a mediator between man and himself, Jesus , who has "been there done that" and understands man and his life.

Christianity is not about judgements condemnation hate and all that. It is all about love. The statements you make show you have no real deep understanding of the Christian way. If you agree Adrian, it might be best if you ask us to speak for the Christians. I then will not speak for you as above.

Regards Mustardseed

[Nagual]

quote:In order to answer the question "does God exist", it is necessary to first define "God".

How can someone define something that he cannot honestly describe?
What are these definitions based on?
There are so many different pseudo definitions of God; based on faith/beliefs/pseudo-interpretations/hearsay/books/traditions (= baseless).
So far, God(s) is/are what people wants/wishes it/them to be...
Here is my definition of God: God is the unkown; the undescribable; the unknowable.
And even giving it a name is "wrong".

[kakkarot]

quote: It is soo funny how a proper greeting and then some statements made by someone with a lot of stars can make an impression!!

actually, i find that adrian's manner of posting, his maturity and thoughtfullness, make the impact. the greeting is just being nice [|)].

but once again, to say something does or does not exist is merely saying it: as jimbola has been adamant in pointing out proof must be shown.

however, we all should realize that over such a medium as the internet no real proof can be given: photos and videos can be doctored, personal accounts can be ficticious, even supposed scientific findings can be ignored by other supposed scientific findings which may or may not truly negate one another's findings. and because of this, anyone asking for proof over the internet must have a certain amount of trust as well as a good ability to discern what a good source is from what a bad source it.

lau_lauz may not know any of us so well, so just reading what we've written regarding our opinions may not be good enough for her. which means of course that any "evidence" either for or against the supposition that God exists must come from a source that is reputable in lau_lauz's mind.

however, our problem is that we don't know what lau_lauz considers to be a reputable enough source: does she consider us reputable just because we have so many stars under our alias? i would hope not [|)], as ides315 said one time (not an exact quote, i'm working from memory) "i find the people who talk more are the people who understand less" (eventhough that isn't true 100% of the time, it is often true). so then, as i asked jimbola: lau_lauz, what kind of proof do you want?

~kakkarot

[jimbola]

Oh dear, "prove that flowers exist"
Go and see your local florist who I am sure will be able to provide you with a shop full of proofs. Alternatively I believe churchyards may have some examples.
I am very glad that you have all now engaged in a serious debate and are not merely accepting of eachothers word. You are proving to your credit that many members here are not as naive or gullible as I was led to believe initially.

[kakkarot]

quote:Originally posted by jimbola

Oh dear, "prove that flowers exist"
Go and see your local florist who I am sure will be able to provide you with a shop full of proofs. Alternatively I believe churchyards may have some examples.

and how am i supposed to know that the florist is telling the truth if i'd never seen a flower before in my life? they could all be fake for all i know.

but i'm sure flowers do exist-"in the minds of the gullible" [|)]

~kakkarot

[Adrian]

Greetings Mustardseed,

quote:Originally posted by Mustardseed
The above post os Adrians opinion!!!! . Just Adrians opinion[].And he is nobody special, he ain't Budda or Brama, and certainly not a Christian or a prophet or anyone else, and never claimed to be. He is just a guy who has a bunch of stars and administrates a webpage. He might think he knows a lot about the universe as many of us do, but he does not have the answers to the questions life asks. He has a few guesses however, thats all. His opinion is not based on anything else that the usual stuf opinions are made up off. Life experiences, hearsay, logic and the opinions of others.

Regards Mustardseed

Thank you very much indeed for your assumed profile of me []

I would just like to confirm that my words are indeed my opinion, albeit based on around 40 years of seeking, and I am most assuredly not Buddha, at least that I am aware of [] Neither do I purport to know everything, who does, all I try to do is to pass on the benefit of some of the things I have learned over the last few decades, and it is then for people to accept it or reject it.

I do find it interesting how you always seem to go straight onto the offensive whenever I post here, as if you see my word as some sort of threat, even perhaps the truth, thereby denting your belief system. Let me assure you that I am not trying in any way to attack christianity, all I am interested in is the truth, and if the truth is at odds with christianity then so be it. In all of these matters open-mindedness is vital to progression.

As for God; everything is God; the entire Universe is God. Nothing is separate from God including human beings, you, I and everyone else. Everything and everyone is Spirit, equal aspects of God.

The real point is however that God is not the deity as personified by christianity. God is the Universe, and, not wishing to be repetitive, operates in accordance with Universal laws and in particular cause and effect. Everything in the Universe is an effect of a preceding cause. God is not interested in flattery, praise or being worshipped, indeed God does not even "think" in those terms, God is "everything that is". To that end, those who believe that they will be "saved" and buy their ticket to heaven by going to church each week, praying, making a contribution to the church coffers and reading the bible are sadly deluding themselves, and more importantly seriously affecting their own true Spiritual progress.

Yes, God exists, and with the most powerful force in the Universe; Unconditional Love, a Love which ultimately wants nothing more than for each and every one of his Sons and Daughters to return to Him/Her having attained that level of perfection; this is the meaning of life.

I must apologise in advance for being the forums Administrator and having achieved five stars for my posting contributions (as have several others), but this is my honest opinion nevertheless []

With best regards,

Adrian.

[kakkarot]

quote:Originally posted by Adrian
The real point is however that God is not the deity as personified by christianity. God is the Universe, and, not wishing to be repetitive, operates in accordance with Universal laws and in particular cause and effect.

but are you sure that there is not BOTH the "christian God" AND the "universal collective-spirit which is sometimes called a god"?

after all, i could say that an apple is really an orange and "prove" it by showing you an orange, but just because an orange exists, does that mean that an apple doesn't? [|)]

from my experiences (though they only be a fraction of adrian's []), reality is not an "either this or this but not both" system. it seems very much to be a "this and this, each doing their thing which sometimes overlap one another" kind of universe. ie, you have an apple and an orange, they are different, but each is used for eating and each can do many of the same things that the other can do (grow, reproduce, be made into juice [], etc). i very much strongly believe (with my own personal experiences for why i believe it) that there is both the "christian God" and a "universal collective-essence which could be easily thought of as a god".

but that's my opinion, not neccessarily truth [].

~kakkarot

[Mustardseed]

Dear Adrian
I apologise for my forthright manner. I have not singled you out and I do not look for a fight so to speak, not at all. You are right that I question you and others and I believe I have every right to. I do find you and others on the Administrators list quite pompous and self important, but what the heck, I find myself quite on the "large" side as well. I do have one point that I tend to make a pet peeve. I know it is a bit silly for most who post here regularly but never the less. Squeek made a point of spelling , grammar etc. so...My point is

Please make sure you tell folks that all the stuf you tell them is just YOUR OPPINION, ( no they dont know!!!!) it aint the undisputed truth it aint beyond questioning. People are gullible Adrian, they look for a person to lead them, just look around. I bet Robert could have had a nice little Cult had he not had the integrity and fear of God or Higher self or whatever, and had he not activly fought against that idea.

I do believe we also have something else between us. My bad sence of humor and my little scorpio digs. It is not so serious nor intended to damage. (though sadly I realise veryt sensitive folks are not at ease with me so much) I am working on that[].

Let it be said for the record that we agree on one pivotal point. WE want the TRUTH , come hell or high water, if it is the Christian way so be it , if the Christian way is not the truth I hereby renounce it and commit myself to finding it. However I think it is[]

Ps I never went to church sat in the pews paid my tribute and acted like a hypocrite. I stand by my faith Adrian. All my adult life I have been a Missionary, I earned my pay through sickness and suffering . More than 25 yrs now with the poorest of the poor, without help from the Church or organized religion. I fear no man and give my allegience only to God and his son Jesus.

Take care

Regards Mustardseed

[Nagual]

quote:our problem is that we don't know what lau_lauz considers to be a reputable enough source

First, I wonder if she is still reading...
Second, the only reputable enough source would be... herself.  Not saying you or others here are lying; but let the first guy who has never been wrong throw me the rock (or something like that [|)]).
And even her could/will be wrong in her interpretations.

[Adrian]

Greetings Mustardseed,

quote:Originally posted by Mustardseed

Dear Adrian
I apologise for my forthright manner. I have not singled you out and I do not look for a fight so to speak, not at all. You are right that I question you and others and I believe I have every right to. I do find you and others on the Administrators list quite pompous and self important, but what the heck, I find myself quite on the "large" side as well. I do have one point that I tend to make a pet peeve. I know it is a bit silly for most who post here regularly but never the less. Squeek made a point of spelling , grammar etc. so...My point is

Please make sure you tell folks that all the stuf you tell them is just YOUR OPPINION, ( no they dont know!!!!) it aint the undisputed truth it aint beyond questioning. People are gullible Adrian, they look for a person to lead them, just look around. I bet Robert could have had a nice little Cult had he not had the integrity and fear of God or Higher self or whatever, and had he not activly fought against that idea.

I do believe we also have something else between us. My bad sence of humor and my little scorpio digs. It is not so serious nor intended to damage. (though sadly I realise veryt sensitive folks are not at ease with me so much) I am working on that[].

Let it be said for the record that we agree on one pivotal point. WE want the TRUTH , come hell or high water, if it is the Christian way so be it , if the Christian way is not the truth I hereby renounce it and commit myself to finding it. However I think it is[]

Ps I never went to church sat in the pews paid my tribute and acted like a hypocrite. I stand by my faith Adrian. All my adult life I have been a Missionary, I earned my pay through sickness and suffering . More than 25 yrs now with the poorest of the poor, without help from the Church or organized religion. I fear no man and give my allegience only to God and his son Jesus.

Take care

Regards Mustardseed

I take if for granted that people accept what I say as an opinion unless I am reproducing information from elsewhere. It would be extremely tedious and impractical to preface every sentence with "in my opinion", or "I think", or "I believe" or whatever, and I have no intention of doing so.

As for christianity vis a vis the entire grand Universal scheme of things; you have to remember that the events which gave rise to christianity are but a minute blip in history of the planet. A religion built exclusively around the words of one person, Joshua, otherwise known as Jesus. I know we have discussed this before, but there is no proof whatsoever that Jesus said any of the things he was supposed to have said according to the bible, it all being written down hundreds of years later after being passed on by word of mouth in the form of fables, legends and so on. It is like that party game "Chinese whispers". Assuming what he said has been written down accurately, it has most certainly been misinterpreted due to its mysticism and symbolism. Most importantly, when Jesus taught that he is the son of God, what he clearly was trying to put across was that everyone is a son or daugher of God, not just him. And the God he spoke of was a conceptual God in a form which people would understand.

The point I am making is this; the true nature of the Universe and the nature and destiny of mankind  has been taught for thousands of years throughout the entire world, and all of these teachings have been almost completely consistent. Indeed, they are even consistent with modern quantum physics. So how is it that christianity chose to focus on this one time period and the activitities of one single man about whom not much is really known to claim the things they do? The fact is, it forms a convenient basis for a dogmatic religion, a belief system by which the masses can be controlled. Religion generally completely fails to accept, and in some case attacks, the wisdom of the ages from numerous sources, knowldedge which would of course completely destroy the orthodox churches and their books. Most religions are nothing more than a complete act of faith.

You will not find the truth unless you seek the truth, the problem being that most people will not seek the truth; it is much more convenient to simply believe in the creed and dogma of the church. In other words, if the bible says it is so, then it must be so.

I certainly admire and respect you for standing by your faith and in particular for your missionary work. At the final analysis, Spiritual progress in the higher spheres, the "heaven worlds" will not be determined by faith, it will be determined by enoblement of the Soul and Spirit, transcending the ego, selfless service, realisation of Spirit, or God within, and above all Unconditional Love. I believe that, notwithstanding your faith, you clearly possess many of these attributes, the same attributes which will determine your personal evolution. All I would suggest to you is that rather than simply accept religion out of faith, why not dedicate some years to open-minded seeking and then decide.

I hope you didn'tfind my response overly "pompous" []

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Mustardseed]

Well yea its a bit pompous but thats ok []. There are soo much we agree on but yet so much we do not agree on. How about you Adrian take a few years off to come with me and explore Christianity and Jesus. I think you will say ....benn there done that. Please do remember my path was esoteric and in the occult before my Christian life. I studied both Buddhism and Hinduism as well as a lot of different other religions and faiths very sincerely . My faith is built on what I have learned through these studies. I am not a blind believer. I was brought up in a communist atheist country, and never enherited my faith , I found it by searching for the truth.

Regards Mustardseed

[Nagual]

quote:My faith is built on what I have learned through these studies

Could you explain a bit more what you mean by studies plz?

[Mustardseed]

I explained in a post elsewhere that I lived in India and Nepal for some years as a traveler (before I became a Missionary.I read the Vedas as well as the Tibetean book of the dead and furthermore "studied" how these religions practiced what they preached. I spent many many years with Buddhist and Hindu friends and aquaintances and learned from them as well. It was not a academic study but I felt it taught me about the realities of the religions based on how they affected their followers. Like someone said, "there is nothing wrong with Christianity the only problem is that so few ever tried it". I said in a earlier post that I believe that those countries are where they are at partly becourse of their religions. Just my opinion.
Regards Mustardseed

[Adrian]

Greetings Mustardseed,

quote:Originally posted by Mustardseed

Well yea its a bit pompous but thats ok []. There are soo much we agree on but yet so much we do not agree on. How about you Adrian take a few years off to come with me and explore Christianity and Jesus. I think you will say ....benn there done that. Please do remember my path was esoteric and in the occult before my Christian life. I studied both Buddhism and Hinduism as well as a lot of different other religions and faiths very sincerely . My faith is built on what I have learned through these studies. I am not a blind believer. I was brought up in a communist atheist country, and never enherited my faith , I found it by searching for the truth.

Regards Mustardseed

Well, I have always remained completely remain open-minded, and accordingly never dismiss anything merely as a matter of principle. And, as you know, I am fully aware of the teachings of the bible and what they represent, including the teachings about God and Jesus.

It has to be said (again) however, that the bible, in and of itself is a fundamentally flawed source of information, for all of the reasons which Beth has so excellently put forward within these forums. There is no point at all going over those reasons yet again; they are already archived and available for all to read at will.

In addition, I am not seeking, and have never sought to follow a "belief system". I am a seeker of the truth, both by my own experiences, and by means of the totally objective evidence, knowledge, information and wisdom which is, and always has been available in abundance all around the world throughout the ages, as well as from higher sources. As I mentioned before, all of these sources are remarkably consistent with each other, and indeed even with modern quantum physics, and none of which have any resemblance with christianity or any other dogmatic, orthodox religion whatsoever.

I have never disputed that Jesus (Joshua) ever existed, but I do believe that his words and intentions have not been accurately represented or understood. He was (and still is) likely a very high initiate, incarnating into the physical world as so many Masters have done before, and have since, at the appropriate time and place, in order to teach humanity Spiritual truths and realities in terms understandable to the people and cultures of the time. It is equally clear, as has been said many times before in these forums, that the words of this man, who, by the way, was not heard of almost from the time of his birth until a couple of years or so before he passed over, have been totally and utterly misunderstood, translated and interpreted in strictly material terms, and almost certainly have little in common with his true mission. In fact, he is probably extremely dismayed at all of the attrocities which have been carried out in his name over the centuries; countless deaths in the name of christianity and other orthodox religions.

How can anyone seize upon a book composed by numerous people hundreds of years later from hearsay, fables,and legends, and which have been retrospectively selectively translated and re-translated, interpreted and re-interpreted entirely to suit the controlling aspirations of the churches and indeed of whole nations, become the basis for the Spiritual progression of all humanity for a large percentage of the worlds population? It is little wonder the planet is in the state it is in. If everyone lived in accordance with true Spirituality, the path back to our Creator, there would be no materialism, greed, suffering, avarice, hate and all of the other things mankind is largely characerised by, and there would be no distinctions between rich and poor. Your excellent missionary work would not be necessary.

In absolute terms, it seems likely that people require a "system of belief" in order to feel comfortable, and in the hope they will find themselves in "heaven" after passing on, and, rather than seek the truth for themselves. It is much more convenient to take a "packaged" belief such as christianity, read the bible from time to time, go to church once per week, and simply hope for the best. Even those who do not go to those extremes nevertheless exist each day in the hope that by simply believing and praying to God and Jesus, as a complete act of faith, will be enough to guarantee them a ticket to heaven.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Mustardseed]

(Adrian said)
It has to be said (again) however, that the bible, in and of itself is a fundamentally flawed source of information, for all of the reasons which Beth has so excellently put forward within these forums. There is no point at all going over those reasons yet again; they are already archived and available for all to read at will.

Dear Adrian
I think we should let sleeping dogs lie, and I also do not want to get into this again so I suggest you too leave it alone!!!!The above statement shows you do not. There has been many posts that Beth did not adress. Lots of points that was not considered and writings that were almost ignored. As someone pointed out you cannot provce a negative!

Correct me if I am wrong....

Just becourse I cannot find archealogic evidence , a set of Jesus milk teeth his old shoes, or his exam sheet from the carpentry school [] it does not exclude the possibility that he was a real person lived and did the things the Bible says he did. I agree that we are hard pressed to find such evidence as he was not a king or noble person but hated and dispised and obviously the jews that crucified him were eager to "make him go away".

It is all by faith.

That is what I said to Robert in our very first posts. Why do you not stop at that and simply say . Well I for one dont believe it!!!! Why is it that you and others HAVE TO DISPROVE the bible. I do not see this zealousness in dealing with other religions. On the contrary it is "friendly exploration" here and friendly exploration there , it is Satanism and Zetas and what have you!!!!HELLO!

Do you believe that the Vedas are "real" that Krishna is a little blue guy, and the world was deluged in a flood of milk, saving the just and making the cow sacred.? If you do not please spend some time as the moderator "attacking" Hindus and that religion for a while, and leave the Bible alone. you are being unfair.

All I said is, God delights in making things a mystery, "he has hidden things for the wise and revealed them on to babies" that no man should Glory in His presence. He is the God of the Universe Adrian and he could have done it that way..... thats all. I never needed proof anyway. If you have proof it is no longer faith, you do not need faith when you have proof right!. As far as Beths posts, she and you seem very Biased. I also said before that if the Bible was the truth you would be up the creek wouldnt you, might that not be a reason why you try so very hard to disprove it, so you will not have to acknowledge it and the truths and absolutes in it?.

With all due respect Adrian...Your knowledge of the Bible is purely philosofical, and in the "mind" like a book report or a theater critique. You do not have a very deep understanding of it nor have you studied it with your heart. If you had you would not speak as you do. Out of the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks, and what is in the heart overflows through the mouth.

Regards Mustardseed

[Beth]

Hello Mustardseed--have you missed me???[]

I felt compelled to check in tonight for some reason and now I know why--you woke the sleeping dog!![8D]

Now Mustardseed, you know that I tried my level best to answer all your questions.  The ones that I did not answer--were questions asked with a very negative attitude, and I told you I would not respond to that kind of thing.  The ones that I did answer--you did not like what I had to say, and that my friend is not the same thing as not receiving an answer. Bottom line--you have not been slighted on this board in the least--you have just not encountered as many "like minds" as you would prefer.  

You say we are biased--so are you.  We all are to a great extent.  Each of us base our view of reality on our experience and knowledge.  The difference between us?  You are trying to bridge a chasm between two different worlds Mustardseed--one world where new exploration is taking place all the time--all the while you are also hanging on to another world and culture that is 2,000+ years old.  

When you are ready to hear a new up to date message--you will hear it.  Until then, you will only hear what you are hearing now.  When the student is ready--the teacher will appear.  I was obviously NOT your assigned teacher--nor is Adrian, Robert or any of the other good people on this board who have spent countless hours trying to help you understand.  Until you can accept something different--you won't.  

I will only make one other point on this post of yours and that is--most intelligent people around the globe recognize that "religious stories" are just that--religious "stories"--important stories that tell of religious things.  Christianity is the one primary exception to this--and they have truly convinced a multitude of people for hundreds of years that--"The Greatest Story That Was Ever Told"--actually happened in real life.  

If we could just get past this "reality problem" and read the Bible as the "Story Book" that it is--we might actually be able to learn some very important things from these wonderful stories. For example--what could the Bible be telling us about "resurrection" besides the claim that only one person did it?  What is being communicated to us about the meaning of a "virgin birth" besides that it only happened to one woman?  There is so much that you do not know Mustardseed--about the ancient cultures that produced these stories, and about the languages that they were written in.  You speak not from rational intelligence but from faith.  And this is not the same thing as "mind" vs. "heart."  True intelligence comes from both the mind and the heart.  Faith and limited knowledge comes from the heart alone.    

Until we rise above this whole "literal business" then people like you will continue to battle against those of us who have a different take on the Bible, who have actually spent years studying it--for no matter how much evidence we give you--it will never be enough.  We have offered here a great deal more evidence that the events didn't happen than you have provided that they did.  When you open your mind you will truly know what an open heart feels like.

Well this dog is going back to sleep now.  I am sure you won't mind this at all--will you??  I will check back in a few days, however, to see if you respond any differently than you always have.  (No, I am not running from the playground like a little girl with hurt feelings--I have more important things to do right now than continue with circular arguments.  Perhaps in a few months I will feel spunky again.)

Peace,
Beth

p.s. Hi Adrian, et al!!![]  
 

[wisp]

Reality is how one sees it first hand.

quote:In fact, he is probably extremely dismayed at all of the attrocities which have been carried out in his name over the centuries; countless deaths in the name of christianity and other orthodox religions.

You seem very compassonate Adrian. I believe individual experiences leads us to look at things according to proximity to ourselves directly. For instance,  I  had a relative in a military conflict in every war since the civil war that I know. The only person I ever knew to die in war was from another country. I have to wonder what this means. For me, many things are concepts, some things are real. Personal impact I guess you could say. Shouldn't this be a basis for a stand per se?  I don't really know about your personal experiences, so forgive me if I'm touching on a sensitive area.I'm not meaning that "concept" doesn't make an impact, just in proportion to personal involvement and point of view.

I think this is where Beth misses the message of Mustardseed. Beth, you may not be hearing your teacher.

Concepts can be held by a group or be individual.A group doesn't make a concept real either. Beth, you are allowing yourself to be supported by something or someone other than yourself. Your sounding like a self appointed elitist. This makes it the correct way? What is your reality?  Really, I would like to know. And please, more information on this global intelligence group. Could this also be one of them who sent you the Forbes report you placed out of the clear blue in the Welcome to Modern Christianity section? If this doesn't reflect your distain and hate for Christians, I don't know what else could. Why are you masquerading as a Christian anyway? You can say the same things without the mask. Oh yeah, you may get a bigger draw in disguise. Are you driven by politics, or is it the possibility of money from your book, in the name of christianity for the sake of big sales?  

No offense Beth, but if you would get your nose out of your "Story Book" every once in a while, you might get another form of education. There are different layers of reality too.

[Mustardseed]

Hi there Beth. How is the book coming along? Good I hope. I thought you would be checking in once in a while and even post if anyone tinkered with you pet peeves, and I was right [], so welcome!.

Well I actually meant that this subject was the sleeping dog not you. It just seems to me that it would be best to agree to disagree thats all. Maybe you would be so kind as to make join me in some "friendly exploration", as well. Adrian was asking me to take some time to explore other religions and I thought that was what I was doing. I in turn asked him to do the same but I dont think he feels the need.

You know Beth there are so many things I would like to adress with you but it would be a lot of work and I am afraid it would not be appreciated by you. I think it would be somewhat like the allegory or metaphor "Give not that which is holy unto dogs and do not cast your pearls before swine ,lest they trample them under feet and turn on you and rend you". Let me just say this.

When someone posts a message or adresses a point on the forum I try to "feel" the spirit. I ask for wisdom and dicernment. In the past you were somewhat civil and kind but you have become increasingly more agressive offended and indignant and it seems to me you are most definately on a quest. I got the impression that you felt "something alerted you" to this discussion. You had a "feeling" that you should look and did and it was confirmed. You sound like a person being "led" or "guided" someone who is on a mission, with divine presence needeling her. I can relate. It has always been my belief that you can deny Jesus by not speaking up when you should!. But what is your Mission Beth. Who is the enemy of your cause?

I am not a very intelligent person. I never claimed to be. If this is the reason I have not seen the light ,well then so be it. I am however quite intuitive, maybe that is another kind of intelligence, and this intuition tells me that you do not want to be friends you dislike me becourse of my faith, and resent me becourse I do not believe as you! I fint this in contradiction with your past posts. You have on a very thin varnish of tolerance, but when you do not get what you want and if people disagree or critisice you or your work, you scratch soo easily and the real Beth is seen underneath.

I think I am here for you too Beth to give you a chance as well, but you are obviously not listening. So why dont we just stay civil and agree to disagree. I wont attack your work and faith and ask you not to attack mine.

Regards Mustardseed

[Beth]

Whoa now there little lady...

Wisp, you and Mustardseed are really something else.  I am not a self-appointed anything.  As a matter of fact, the reason that I do not post on this board the many extraordinary things that have happened to me through and from the Divine Realm is that I am not going to put these beautiful and blessed occurances in a place where you and Mustardseed can "have a go at them."[B)]   I am sure you would criticize or belittle them with your sarcastic comments as well.  I will not, therefore, allow you the opportunity to attempt to tarnish my experience of God like that.  My experiences are highly personal and unlike some people, I do not wear them like a "badge of spiritual superiority."

It seems to me that you and Mustardseed can have all these experiences and beliefs that are only supported by your having had the experiences themselves.  Mustardseed touts and brags about his missionary work, as though that is all he has to do to get into heaven, and has even insinuated at times that he is some kind of prophet. You, I am not sure what you are claiming to be, except someone who posts her own brand of psychology on an internet forum in response to people who share their experiences. Your psychology is part Freudian, part Jungian, part Skinnerian, and part New Age buffet.  But all in all it is just your opinion.

I, on the other hand, offer here much more than just my experiences, which are very personal and between me and God.  I have offered here truths and proofs that cannot be denied--not truths about God, but truths about the written Bible.  If you and Mustardseed would get up off your "hand me down conclusions" and actually study that which you condemn, you would both learn a great deal. When you have put forth the effort and studied the history, the texts, the documents, and the ancient languages that were involved during the Biblical period--then we have something to discuss--and perhaps debate.  Until then, you are just stating your opinion based upon what precious little you really know.  When you know more, you have will actually have a stonger support for your arguments.  Until then, they are just defense mechanisms in the form of belittling insults.  

You and Mustardseed are both intellectually lazy smart-allecks that I grew very tired of very quickly.  

I say this not with hurt feelings--or to hurt yours--what is it you always say--"no offense"?  I say this because it finally needs to be said. We have tip-toed around you guys for too long.

Good people have spent many hours on this board offering you and Mustardseed (and whoever else) a great deal of very important information -- FREE OF CHARGE.  We are the ones who have invested the time, the effort, and the expense to educate ourselves. We bought the books, took the classes, and studied the languages--for you.  We decided to share all that we have learned with you, because we know how very hard it is to get the education that we have.  We also know that it is not feasible for everyone to do.  

But what do you do instead of be grateful for the free education that you are receiving? You insult and criticize instead of learn of things you do not know. Instead of filling these pages full of empty and petty criticism, you should be taking advantage of what is offered to you here. You should be asking more questions of us instead of bringing the valid questions of others to a screeching halt with your circular arguments and marytr complexes.  If you or Mustardseed want to be my teacher--then do your homework, get the credentials and make some intellectual sense for a change.

We have all had experiences of the divine realm or else we would not be on this board.  If anyone has come across as "elitest" -- it is you and Mustardseed.  Your experiences are no more "divine" than anyone else's.  Sharing experiences is one thing, but by "comparing" divine experiences the way you two do, we are just setting the world up for more of "this is the CORRECT and ONLY TRUE experience to have" and any other kind of experience is of "SATAN" or is "EVIL."  In good old Modern Christian form--this is just plain old elitest Modern Christian rubbish.  It is certainly NOT what the original Christians would have claimed.  How do I know this?  Because I wanted to know, and I took the time and energy to find out.

And Wisp...I don't hate Christians.  I don't hate anyone.  Your comments are just more of your same ole' same ole' nonsense.

Beth

[kakkarot]

quote:Nagual
First, I wonder if she is still reading...

yeah, so do i.

quote:Adrian
I know we have discussed this before, but there is no proof whatsoever that Jesus said any of the things he was supposed to have said according to the bible, it all being written down hundreds of years later after being passed on by word of mouth in the form of fables, legends and so on.

actually, the books of the new testament were written within 75 years of jesus death (most written within 40 years, only a few being written from 40 to 75 years after), by the people who were actually there with him (except for a handful which were written by people who were with the apostles).

quote:Adrian
Assuming what he said has been written down accurately, it has most certainly been misinterpreted due to its mysticism and symbolism.

i do agree with this thought, even today (and not just over the past two thousand years) there are innumberable people who would change what the bible says in favour of what they want it to say, as well as there being too many people who just flat out don't understand it but talk to others as though they do (thereby spreading ignorance).

it's not just "actual christianity" which seeks to say "this is the truth", there have been an unlimited number of people both in the past and in the present who merely use the bible as a footstool to promote their own brand of "truth". and other religions are not exempt either: most (though not all) do try to declare what they believe to be true as "the Truth" that all should believe.

it is important, imo, to seperate the actual teachings of a "religion" from what people merely say the teachings are. hard to do sometimes, but it's like someone trying to say that science has done (or figured out) something it hasn't, and getting people to believe the lie rather than what science has determined/done.

quote:Adrian
You will not find the truth unless you seek the truth, the problem being that most people will not seek the truth; it is much more convenient to simply believe in the creed and dogma of the church.

i also agree with this: there are many stupid dogmatic and doctrinal beliefs in the so-called church which blatantly contradict the original christian teachings.

but even beyond that, if a person truly seeks the truth they CANNOT merely cling to the beliefs they've grown up with and only "seek" the truth within their own religion. to truly seek the truth one must take all of their beliefs and set them aside as they search for actual truth rather than beliefs and ideas and opinions. the hard thing for many to do (imo) is to distinguish between actual truth and mere ideas/opinions/philosophies/etc, thereby allowing some to fool themselves into believing that an idea/opinion/philosophy/etc is supposedly "(a) truth".

quote:Adrian
It has to be said (again) however, that the bible, in and of itself is a fundamentally flawed source of information, for all of the reasons which Beth has so excellently put forward within these forums. There is no point at all going over those reasons yet again; they are already archived and available for all to read at will.

personally, i think some of beth's logic is flawed, eventhough much of her reasoning is not neccessarily so (though, who among us IS perfect? [|)]). besides, there are no end to the number of sources which will try to say that the bible is or is not flawed, so if someone really cares they can go out and research it rather than be lazy and just take someone's word for it.

quote:Beth
For example--what could the Bible be telling us about "resurrection" besides the claim that only one person did it?

actually, the bible is quite clear in saying that other people have been resurrected as well (in fact, one of the books state that just after jesus death *many* long-dead prophets and such came back to life and went out into the world, though whether there is outside proof of this is another question).

quote:Beth
What is being communicated to us about the meaning of a "virgin birth" besides that it only happened to one woman?

the importance of the virgin birth of jesus is NOT that "it only happened to one woman" (which i don't recall ever being stated in the bible) but that the "Father" was the holy spirit (aka God's spirit, aka God Himself thereby making Jesus God's actual son. though there then becomes the issue that God did exactly what He threw angels out of heaven for (according to the book of Enoch, many angels were cast out of heaven for taking on human wives) [|)]. note: i don't know "the Truth", i merely seek it and have fun making other people seek it by shaking up any beliefs (mine or theirs) that are getting in the way [|)]).

quote:MustardSeed
I got the impression that you felt "something alerted you" to this discussion. You had a "feeling" that you should look and did and it was confirmed. You sound like a person being "led" or "guided" someone who is on a mission, with divine presence needeling her.

actually, i think she was saying that she just "felt" that someone had said something that related to her. i've gotten that feeling a number of times too. after all we do delve into the metaphysical so why believe such a thing would be divine and not just "super"natural? [|)]

there, now that i'm done replying, back to the original topic [|)]: ... well, ok. the original topic has been done to death. and the only sure thing that is known is that proof of God is a personal sort of proof. there is no proof that can be shown to the masses and get them to *know* (not just "know") that there is a God.

~kakkarot

[Beth]

Mustardseed,

You made your post while I was still writing mine.  

In response to you I will say only this:  It is not me who gets upset when someone else differs from my own position--you and Wisp are the ones that do that.  If a post goes contrary to your own brand of literalist Christianity you come out with "cries of discrimination." You are the ones that take friendly exploration only to the point where it becomes uncomfortable to you--and when it does, you jump out with the "you hate Christians" or "you disagree with my faith" nonsense.  You seem willing enough at times--but then stark fear sets in that you may have to give up more of your set belief system than is comfortable for you--and you fall back into your same old system of claiming persecution.  It is you who try to persecute new ways of belief.

The Divine realm works best when people get uncomfortable.  Being uncomfortable opens a person--not to Satan--but to the Divine Realm as a whole.  I would certainly agree to disagree Mustardseed, but you have yet to allow that to happen.  Whenever someone would ask me a question--that you obviously do not want to hear another answer to--you would get in the way of that person's search my insulting me personally instead of doing your homework to address my answers with good sense.

Kakkarot,

quote:by the people who were actually there with him

Sorry--but this is incorrect.  Paul's epistles were written first and Paul never spoke of being there with Jesus.  The Gospels are thought to have been written between 80 c.e. and 120 c.e.  But besides these, there were also a great many other books written that are not commonly known about because the Catholic Church two hundred or so years after the fact, chose not to include them in their "Holy Book."  But all of this has already been presented here, time and time again.  This is "history" not speculation.  This is reality -- not belief or opinion.    

quote:i merely seek it and have fun making other people seek it by shaking up any beliefs (mine or theirs) that are getting in the way ).

Shaking up beliefs is what I was referring to above to Mustardseed, but care should be taken for this kind of thing can also cause harm if only done "in fun."

Beth

[Adrian]

Greetings everyone,

I would just like to add one very brief fundamental point for now. I will of course be keeping an eye on this topic []

Both Beth and I derive our knowledge from numerous, diverse independant sources spanning many thousands of years and assimilate our positions from the collective of those resources, numerous of which are in broad agreement. I, and I am sure Beth, am always willijng to modify my position in the light of new information. The remarkable thing for me is that even after the best part of 40 years of seeking, I have not felt the need to alter my position much on what is an astonishing level of consistency across all areas I have researched and involved myself with over the years. These form the basis of my postings here, which are most certainly not a result of any sort of intransigent position of the sort often displayed by the followers of dogmatic, orthodox religion. I have also read a good deal of the bible, an in particular John which I find particularly interesting along with Genesis. I intend to take a look at Revelations when I have the time.

You, and many christians on the other hand, with respect, base everything around the bible. I, and Beth have both said enough about the bible and its authenticity and reliability as a source of true knowledge of the sort absolutely required by mankind to turn back towards the light in order to make the sort of progress which needs to be made and fast. The fact is, the bible has been a major and lone contributor towards turning much of humanity away from its destiny due, in no small part, that so many people, who do not wish to seek the truth for themselves, have opted, out of abject faith only, to accept the word of a packaged belief system of highly dubious origins.

All I would ask of anyone is that they compare and contast the bible and the christian religion with a multitude of sources of Spiritual information available today, and then make a true judgement.

I am sure the only reason people accept orthodox, dogmatic religion as they do, is because it is so visible and convenient. There is a church in every village, and many in towns, as well as a copy of the bible in every hotel room [] Over here, all children are compulsarily taught "religious education" as if it were a fact rather than a subject for discussion. Over the centuries, anyone not conforming to the doctrines of the church were treated terribly, including tortured and killed in the most horrible ways. Is it any wonder the truth remains "esoteric" or "occult", and so many people take the easy route of creed and dogma where they know they will not be ridiculed?

The truth is out there! Seek and ye shall find!

As it is, I firmly believe that mankind is at the beginning of an expansion of consciousness of the group human mind, which will finsih off dogmatic, orthodox religion forever, as people open their minds, Souls and hearts to Spiritual truths, and live their lives accordingly. Then, and only them can humanity achieve the always intended objective, including of Jesus, the "kingdom of heaven on Earth"

With best regards,

Adrian.

[wisp]

Thanks Adrian for what is a gentle and respectful statement.
People are searching, and people are changing. It took a miracle to make some changes in my mind and life on this subject. Sorry for my reference to miracle. []


Dear Beth,
Your tolerance to another view is limited.Do you really expect that someone is going to take and consume what you apparently consider to be your own gospel? The fact you consider your evidence indisputable and above reproach is less than realistic. This is not a challenge, it's common sense. If I thought it was a life and death matter I would check it out. But you know, it's not, so I don't give a flitter.
What in the world gives you the idea that either of us (me or MS)would belittle anyone's personal experience? This is sacred territory in my book, no way, would I do such a thing. If your put off by my experiences, sorry then (for opening up). My point was to show interpretation of these things. Dreams are my interest, just as the bible is your interest. Dreams require reading and understanding, but it's an open field. I'm also trying to learn how obes and lucid dreams relate too. There are spiritual aspects I like to focus on as well. I'm not into a psychological approach on dreams. Any psychological aspect which might make it's appearance is only by chance. It can happen when crossing  common lines that have already been established. That oftentime is when something new can be learned. That is a good thing.
If I ever decide to get out of my lazy intellectual cycle, I can pay my way. I didn't realize I was receiving education through charity.Your offer of crumbs, no thanks. I can pick and choose my own meals too.You have tendencies toward arrogance and and being condescending.There is little you can show or teach me. You have given me a new fresh look at the the Fundamental religion. Suddenly their hospitality appears warmer. You attack and project something that scares the hell of me. May God help anyone under your control or devices. Hate is an ugly word Beth, I don't use it lightly. Hate toward a religion is not new.You are the first person I've seen show teeth. That's okay, this is a great experience for me. I can take it.  

Your intellectual approach is fine. Your attitude and approach needs a sincere attempt at refining.But I'm not into stirring up anything, just reading things here and trying to contribute....on an equal and fair basis. Other-wise, your information is nothing more than material for the rise of a new cult(IMO). Cult leaders are charming btw, [] I hope you don't take advantage of people.I bet you can be charming to the people you you want to impress. Peace.

[Mustardseed]

Dear Beth
I find you very very unkind and agressive. Your hateful comments and general attitude tells me that ÿou are in the gall of bitterness¨I think your anger and your hurt have clouded your better judgement.

It is true that I have talked about my work as a missionary, but I did it to explain how modern Missionaries work to someone who thought I was there building Churches. If I bragged I am sorry that was not my intention.

Your comment about me thinking I äm some kind of a prophet¨I find very interesting. You asked me a while ago about Christianity and prophesying, and I told you that I prophesy and for you to understand how that works I sent you some prophesies in confidence that I recieved about Robert and Narrow Path. At the time you wrote back ¨the Lords speaks to you beautifuly¨. To Prophesy is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit along with tounges and healing. Channeling the Christian way so to speak. Is that wrong. These are my beautiful experiences with my God Beth. Aparently you have had some similar experiences but do not want to share them as you think I will put them down with sarcastic remarks.

Beth......are you familiar with the scripture that says, ¨think not to take a splinter out of your brothers eye when there is a beam in your own¨. Is this not exactly what you are doing.

Beth I am sorry to say but you seem to be going a bit wierd, I would suggest you slow down and take a deep breath....inhale .....exhale.. Relax.

Regards Mustardseed

(Beth said)I say this because it finally needs to be said. We have tip-toed around you guys for too long.

Good people have spent many hours on this board offering you and Mustardseed (and whoever else) a great deal of very important information -- FREE OF CHARGE. We are the ones who have invested the time, the effort, and the expense to educate ourselves. We bought the books, took the classes, and studied the languages--for you. We decided to share all that we have learned with you, because we know how very hard it is to get the education that we have. We also know that it is not feasible for everyone to do.

But what do you do instead of be grateful for the free education that you are receiving? You insult and criticize instead of learn of things you do not know. Instead of filling these pages full of empty and petty criticism, you should be taking advantage of what is offered to you here. You should be asking more questions of us instead of bringing the valid questions of others to a screeching halt with your circular arguments and marytr complexes.

(MS) Beth all I can say is ......wow. Did I hear you say you are not a "self appointed elitist" as Wisp put it. HELLO .....Earth calling Beth!!Anyone there??

[Mustardseed]

Dear Adrian
Good post I actually agreed with most of it. The Bible has been used and abused and who said that the only spirituality allowed is in that book. That is what the churches teach. I agree. If that was all and the way we should live our spiritual lives ....lets all go join the Amish. To me that is a dead God. I talked with Robert about similar things. He said that God was changing , well that is one way of explaining it. I would say that he is continually showing us new sides of himself. We might think he is changing but I think he is just so big that he seems to change. Jesus said "greater things than these shall you do" . Revelations is a very interesting book. Thanks for the post. As you see the thread is heating up and I certainly appreciate a levelheaded aproach.

I do have some different opinions about certail points and will open up a different thread to discuss this.
Regards Mustardseed