Holy War

[Novice]

quote:The words 'holy war' form a total oxymoron

Robert - you took the words right out of my mouth. Regardless of the religous faction starting it, be it Islam, Christian or any other, there is no way you could possibly convince me that the act itself is an act of God, unless of course, the Almighty cares to tell me that him/herself.

And I realize there is a psychological factor involved in this, but I have honestly never, ever understood the mentality or rational behind many of these acts. How could an individual read and (supposedly) 'understand' their holy text, and yet twist it in such a way as to construe killing as being condoned by God, Allah, whatever name you want to attribute to it.

I have read studies (psychologically related) regarding similar 'frenzies' with the Nazi's. And I personally believe that the mental and psychological framework is similar (although I'm not an expert and could be mistaken here). But I keep coming back to how this happens. What drives an individual, or groups of individuals, into committing these actions and believing in every fiber of their being that they are doing the right thing. As saddened and appalled as I am for the victoms of these acts, a part of me feels even more grief and sadness for those committing the crimes.

Sorry for the ramble. I realize that the last part is off-topic, but that's where the train of thought led me. Hope you don't mind.

[kakkarot]

all those who think that God doesn't promote war have evidentally forgotten about all the nations He *ordered* to be EXTERMINATED, right down to the women and children, the old and the sick. genocide of nations, ordered by God Himself... if you believe the bible [|)]

or what about the people whom God Himself has killed outright? like the guy who touched the Ark of the Covenant...

~kakkarot

[Tab]

quote:Originally posted by xander

quote:Originally posted by Robert Bruce


The word Islam means 'the way of peace'.

Robert, with all due respect, I am taking an Islamic Texts course for my Religious Studies degree and I assure you that the word Islam does not mean "way of peace".

the word Islam in fact means "submission".

Actually, you're both wrong and right. You've got to have a grip on semitic languages to understand that the same word can be taken in totally different contexts. The word SLM, from which Islam is derived, means "completion". In Hebrew, it's taken to be inner completion, or 'peace', "shalom". In Arabic, you could take it to mean submission, peace, or really any other derivitive with the root SLM.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

quote:Originally posted by kakkarot

all those who think that God doesn't promote war have evidentally forgotten about all the nations He *ordered* to be EXTERMINATED, right down to the women and children, the old and the sick. genocide of nations, ordered by God Himself... if you believe the bible [|)]

or what about the people whom God Himself has killed outright? like the guy who touched the Ark of the Covenant...

~kakkarot

Good point. I really do not understand it. God gives the Hebrews the command "Thou shall not kill", then turns around and says, "Ok, now you need to kill everyone in these nations, yes, I said wipe them out completely." So is it any wonder why people are so confused over "Holy Wars".

[Novice]

Kakkarot-
I understand what you are saying. I guess, I just don't believe that God actually ever told anyone to kill anyone else. So I guess I understand the confusion people have. But I keep coming back to what the individuals think and feel about it. I believe certain lessons contained in the bible. But there are many things in the bible that I think have been twisted over time and thus don't believe them. But I have no proof of that. Its purely a feeling I get as I read or hear it.

My point would be that, all religious texts were written by man. Then they were interpretated and translated by other men. Then there were updates and edits made to them by others. So all it would take would be for someone to misunderstand something and write it as The Truth. Then others take and misunderstand that and so on. Its the adult version of the grapevine game kids play. I personally don't know for a fact what God said to whom. But based on my understanding of God, I can intuit what parts were inspired by him and what parts were not.

And I owe you much thanks Kakkarot. As I was writing this in response to you, I think I found the understanding that I searching for earlier. The reason people believe that what they are doing is right is because they believe fully what they read and what they are told. They don't stop to question it. They don't listen to how they feel about the actions they are about to undertake.

I feel pretty dense now. The answer is so simple and obvious - yet completely contrary to my way of dealing with things. So I had simply not even considered it as an approach for others before. (rolls eyes at self).

[zaicer]

I read some of the replys here so If what I say is a repeat dont be complainin.

It seems to me that many religions have had their holy wars. It is like a sick stage in the religions progression. In the begining the Jews came to the "Holy Land" and took it from the people that lived there. That was their Holy WAR. Then Christianity became perverded by the nobel men of Europ and entire armies were sent to Palestine to liberate it from the hands of the "non-bilivers". Now the younges religion, Islam, is at the "HOLY WAR" stage. The terrorist leaders are attacking America and others who they precive as evil. This will come to pass but only after many have died. This HOLY WAR stage in the religions is coused by peoples ignorance and closemindedness. If they only try to anderstand that what realy matters is doing good and Loving people. It does not matter if u are a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jew or any other. The only thing that matters is being good.

It is unfortunate that our sociaty has remaind so infentail and learned virtualy nothing about religion. They kill themselvs in the name of God forgeting there is only one and nomatter what you call him and what you think of him he is unchanging. Many teach others to fear God couseing even more hatred. They want to gain power by doing wrong and they fail to understand that the ULTIMATE POWER comes from LOVE. No other power is greater, not fear not even money motivates people to do what Loves helps them do. Althea at first this seems naive it is not. But one has to learn how to love in our hating world so onone will take advantage of him.

Man I wat way off from the Holy war subject  []

[xander]

[Originally posted by zaicer
The only thing that matters is being good.

>But how do you define the "good"? To some people slaughtering people in the name of their god is "good".

It is unfortunate that our society has remaind so infantile and learned virtualy nothing about religion.

>religion and spirituality are two different things, many forget that.

They kill themselvs in the name of God forgeting there is only one and nomatter what you call him and what you think of him he is unchanging.

>God doesnt change but mans perception of her does, depending on their level of understanding.
Sadly there are those who only understand violence and aggression.

Many teach others to fear God couseing even more hatred. They want to gain power by doing wrong and they fail to understand that the ULTIMATE POWER comes from LOVE.

>Many do understand but it's easier to manipulate others if you make them afraid first. Love says I have power over myself. Fear says I have no power but others do.

 But one has to learn how to love in our hating world so onone will take advantage of him.

>Sadly love is seen as weakness to many and at times there are situations which love does nothing but open one up to manipulation.
Many also don't know what love really is. Sometimes the most powerful form of love is fighting against those who would seek to harm others.

>Let me elaborate. A woman about to be beaten and raped showing the sentimental love of popular culture will simply submit. HOWEVER, The woman who practices REAL love will fight for her life any way she can even if it harms the attacker.

>I think I mentioned this before somewhere. I told some manipulative jerk "NO!". He raged and screamed and had a temper tantrum. The next night I had an astral experience in which I encountered him. He smiled and thanked me for telling him "no". he had never before been shown that kind of love, when I inquired about his temper tantrum, he told me that was his ego in full control of him.

>Respect is mutual and earned.

>Xander
Man I wat way off from the Holy war subject  []
[/quote]

[zaicer]

Good and Bad are indeed subjectiv and are determind by ones perception of the world.

My opinion is that being good is living and leting live others without hurming them. It is VERY HARD to live a life of TRUE LOVE. The popular perception has indeed destorted the picture.

Ur example :"Let me elaborate. A woman about to be beaten and raped showing the sentimental love of popular culture will simply submit. HOWEVER, The woman who practices REAL love will fight for her life any way she can even if it harms the attacker."

That is very true Loving others does not always mean not hurting them. I thought about it much and I came to a conclusion that you can still love someone and knock them out if THEY attack you. But attacking them would be against Love. ALso in direct competition it is ok to beat someone. For example I and a diferent guy love the same girl and she does not know which one of us to pick. If she peaks me that will cause the other guy to suffer, cry, feel pain. But as long as I did not "fight dirty" I will feel guild free. Life will never be pain free. There will always be loosers and winners. But as long as the spirit and the intent will be good (helping others, helping them become independent thinkers and doers) it will be ok.

Another example I thought of is feeling sorry. Many people think that in the spirit of Love one needs to feel sad and sorry if there is misery around. That is not so. Lets say that people around me have sufferd becouse of something and I am happy while they are not. It would be wrong to be sad becouse they are. It would just bring everyone down. It is ok to be doing good and be happy in times of sadnes if:
- you did not cause that suffering
-you are not happy in the sad peoples faces, you allowe them the space to moarn and feel said becouse of whatever
- you try to help them get out of their sadnes

Living the life of TRUE LOVE is very hard (harder then one might think, I try but sometimes I fail, but still I continue to go on and make up for my mestakes) and requaiers CONSTAT THINKING and ANALIZING. Many people dont like to think, they like to take it easy. Hate is easy becouse it is almost self propelant. You hate someone you think about what they did to you, you hate them more, you think about it more, and so on. But in love you forgiv them, althea you dont allow them to do it again.

[DjMidgetMan]

I think I got to this topic a little late, but I will share my knowledge of it.

quote:Radical Islam has declared war on the U.S.

It is called a Holy War. Are there any Muslims here that care to convey why they hate America so much? If it is a "Holy War" than I am taking a leap of faith and assuming that it is because this is a Christian country?

Although many people have already commented on this, I would like to comment also.

quote:Radical Islam has declared war on the U.S.

You bet.

quote:It is called a Holy War.

Peoplle here have already explained that the literal meaning of the word. Jihad is a "struggle" or "Striving". A jihad in terms of war is strictly political and is an obligation upon the Islamic state, not upon individuals.  "Political" Jihad was taken out by the Islamic state for one of three purposes:

1)To defend the Islamic community
2)to defend the oppressed
3)to open up other lands to Islam

For the third one, non-muslims who did not accept Islam were subject to a tax known as jizyah and weere allowed to freely practice their religion. The tax was in place of the cost of their protection, and they were exempted from this tax if they either accepted Islam or trained in the military. As for accepting Islam, the tax would simply be reeplaced by the religious obligation known as zakat(charity), which is of the same proportion as the jizyah. Jizyah was not a discriminatory tax as some people think, but it was simply to pay the costs of the non-Muslims protection under the Islamic state, and to have the same rights as Muslims under the Islamic state.

quote:Are there any Muslims here that care to convey why they hate America so much?

I'll give you a couple facts as to why I hate America.

1)Their military aid to Israel, which in effect of its establishment, has created the largest refugee population in the world(of Palestinians). Americas bullets, bombs, planes, and tanks are seen throughout the streets of the west bank and gaza, only to suffer the lives of many innocent palestinians and to spread the tyraniical oppression which Israel has been enforcing over the Palestinian population.

2)Their trade embargoes in which they have enforced through the U.N., along with the United Kingdom, which have resulted in the deaths of 1.5 million Iraqi civilians, half of them being children, due to malnutrition and lack of medical supplies etc.

3)Their desire to break down the Islamic civilization more than it already has been broken down. This can be easily seen through the quotes of many government officials such as George Bush who say things like: "it is gonna take a while before we can fully break down their culture", and, "we need to establish freedom and democracy throughout the entire middle east". Much of this can be seen very early on in the American history:

"[the Middle East is] a stupendous source of strategic power, and one of the greatest material prizes in world history." -- U.S. State Department, 1945

This need to change the Islamic culture, and to spread wicked ideas which are very foreign to Islam, yet so common in American society, such as:

a)free-mixing of the sexes
b)secularism
c)prison-systems
d)abondonment of Islamic law

are yet more reasons why i dislike America.

All of this can be seen through their support of governments such as egypt, who imprison and torture anyone who is deemed a Muslim activist; an example of this is Muhammad Qutb, who was tortured to death just a couple weeks ago in an egyptian prison.

Governments such as Saudi Arabia are pressured by the U.S. constantly, mocked and abused, while Saudi Arabia obeys them in their every will.

4) U.S. occupation of the middle east. http://www.ramadhan.org/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/rorgflash/USbases.swf

that is a good link to know about the U.S. occupation of the middle east and how they have abused their power.

The occupation is probably the most angering; it is once again humiliation of the Muslim nations and their people. They become infuriated daily at the U.S.'s use of the Islamic Holy Land as the spot in which to kill other Muslims.

For those of you who think that radical Muslims are simply out to  "kill kill kill" for no absolutely no reason; the truth is that radical Islam is simply a reactionary movement, starting from the British break up of the Ottoman empire and the Imperialism the Muslim world has been facing for so long.

quote:If it is a "Holy War" than I am taking a leap of faith and assuming that it is because this is a Christian country?

I explained above as others have that Jihad is not a 'holy war', yet a 'struggle'. Politically, jihad would fit more of the bounds of the western term: 'just war'.

Radical Muslims have declared war on the U.S. in reaction to U.S. policy. The religion of Christianity really does not have much to do with it; it is the secularist democratic Western ideals in which radical Muslims hate. They are fighting against the oppression and slaughter which has been raiding the Muslim lands under the banner of Democracy and freedom. If you do not believe me, then read the main statement of Osama Bin Laden himself as proof:

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm

At this point you may be pondering if Im a radical Muslim. Im a radical Muslim in that a I believe that the America should leave the middle east, stop supporting Israel, and completely leave the Muslims alone. I do not agree with Osama's fatwa to kill the Americans, civilians and military, in any country they are found, in that the fatwa goes against Islamic principles. Civilians are not to be targeted in war, and the enemy's military is not fought in his own land.

[xander]

]Originally posted by DjMidgetMan[/i]
I'll give you a couple facts as to why I hate America.

1)Their military aid to Israel,
2)Their trade embargoes in which they have enforced through the U.N., 3)Their desire to break down the Islamic civilization more than it already has been broken down.

<first of all I want to say that the first I was aware of Islam was when WTC massacre happened. I have since then attempted to educate myself in regards to the Muslim point of veiw. From reading parts of the Hadith, Qur'an, and other various Islamic writtings I have come to the conclusion that Islam is a very beautiful religion.

>Secondly I agree with the 3 reasons given as to why they hate america.
We are indeed a nation of conquerers. Our govt is out of the peoples control and the coporate political elite seek to in essence rule the world.


For those of you who think that radical Muslims are simply out to  "kill kill kill" for no absolutely no reason; the truth is that radical Islam is simply a reactionary movement, starting from the British break up of the Ottoman empire and the Imperialism the Muslim world has been facing for so long.

>Very true. No wonder the highest ranking professions for Muslims are engineers, chemists, etc. We defeated them with science, they must defeat us the same way.

quote:If it is a "Holy War" than I am taking a leap of faith and assuming that it is because this is a Christian country?

I explained above as others have that Jihad is not a 'holy war', yet a 'struggle'. Politically, jihad would fit more of the bounds of the western term: 'just war'.

>Declaring it a holy war causes most americans to see it emotionally rather than politically. If americans knew it was politics many would tell our govt to get out of the middle east and leave them alone. We are doing to Islam what the brits did to the colonies in the 1700's

At this point you may be pondering if Im a radical Muslim. Im a radical Muslim in that a I believe that the America should leave the middle east, stop supporting Israel, and completely leave the Muslims alone. I do not agree with Osama's fatwa to kill the Americans, civilians and military, in any country they are found, in that the fatwa goes against Islamic principles. Civilians are not to be targeted in war, and the enemy's military is not fought in his own land.

>Well given that Criteria then I geuss I too am a radical Muslim.

>Respectfully
>Xander





[/quote]

[DjMidgetMan]

quote:It seems to me that many religions have had their holy wars. It is like a sick stage in the religions progression. In the begining the Jews came to the "Holy Land" and took it from the people that lived there. That was their Holy WAR. Then Christianity became perverded by the nobel men of Europ and entire armies were sent to Palestine to liberate it from the hands of the "non-bilivers". Now the younges religion, Islam, is at the "HOLY WAR" stage. The terrorist leaders are attacking America and others who they precive as evil. This will come to pass but only after many have died. This HOLY WAR stage in the religions is coused by peoples ignorance and closemindedness. If they only try to anderstand that what realy matters is doing good and Loving people. It does not matter if u are a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jew or any other. The only thing that matters is being good.

The first thing I would like to note, is that from a Muslim perspective, Islam is not the youngest religion. Muslims believe that Islam(submission unto God) is the religion revealed unto all prophets. Muslims believe that Moses, Jesus, Abraham, David, Muhammad, etc.(peace be upon them all) were all prophets of God, preaching to believe in one God, and worship him, with partners.

The main difference between Islam and Christianity is that we do not believe in the Holy Trinity, and we do not believe that Jesus(peace be upon him) is the son of God. We believe Jesus was a righteous slave of God, who taught to worship one God, as did his followers.

Secondly, Good, as xander said, is how you define it. As Muslims, we see the Quran and the example of the Muhammad(peace be upon him) as the criterion of what is right and what is wrong. As humans our intelligence is very limited, and although we have an innate instinct to do what is good, our desires lead us astray, and the difference between right and wrong is not always clear to us. As Muslims*, we submit unto our Creator, and rely on what He has revealed to judge between us in our affairs.

Pre-marital sex. Is this something good or evil? Many people will say that there is nothing wrong with it, and many people in fact encourage it. Yet if you talk to many religious Christians, Jews, or Muslims, they will tell you that such an act is completely wicked. In such a case, the idea of "treat others how you would like to be treated" does not apply. In this case is it okay to have premarital sex? What do you think?

*The word Muslim literally means: "submitter(unto God)"

[zaicer]

I am well aware of the things american government did in the middle east. I know that they support Israel, and I know what Israel did. I know about how american governmetnt manipulates the Soudi gov. and I know that the Soudi opposition is suppresed and not allowed to voice their opinions and the US supports this. Todays US elites do many bad things, one might even call them EVIL.
I am also aware of the fact that Saddam killed many of his people and how he gasses the Kurds. I know how he became mini Hitlem! I am aware of the fact of what Osama and his followers did and how many bad things they did.

These two groups are bought equal in their atrocities. They bought kill and murder, and do many bad things.
As fare as I am concerned these two forces will slowly eradicate eachother. I do not want to have anything to do with it becouse there is no way this conflict be resolved without changing the leaders on BOUGHT sides.
I understand that many Muslims Hate america and why. I understand why many Americans hate Muslims and why. But I dont think that Hate is the answer.

I myself am Polish and I could hate the Germans for killing MILLIONS of my countryman during WW II, and I could hate them now for having the audacidy to ask for Polish land which does not bellong to them and say :"You have taken it away from us after the war, give it back"
I could hate the Russians for polluting my culture with their comunist ideas and destroying my people. I could hate them for allowing the comunist elits to take over my country and rob it blind leaving nothing but runins.
I could hate those groups for trying to COMPLITYLY ERADICATE my people as if they were infirior and for trying to complitly erase my culture and any Polish heretig during the Partitions of Poland and during WW I and WW II. But I do not hate.

I do not hate becouse I know that Hate is not the way. I know that the people that did this are only a small group. Those that follow are uneducated and manipulated. Hate breeds nothing but more hate.
I do not hate but I would not allow them to do this again.

I do not see any good short term solutin for this problem. But I do not think that killing eachother is the way. Now america is "making" Iraq democratic, they are "making" Afganistan democratic and they are claiming to make those countrys self sufficient. I can only hope that those countries will grow and become as self reliant as Germany is now. Germany was "occupied" the same way that middle east is. But look at them now. The german government is looking the US is the eye and saying No this war on Iraq is not good. This is wrong or that is wrong. And they are not pushed around. I think that this is the only way that the groups that opose america can win. Use the democratic system in their way. Take power in their country peacufuly and be good. They do not have to fire even a single bullet to push the Americans and other militaris out of their homeland. They just have to stand on their two legs without a gun in their hand and tell the americans to leave. Althea many will say that the fundamentalists will not take power becouse the US will not let them they are wrong. There are so many countris that have bussines there. One simply needs to use one of these giants as a steping stone to power, and in a peacfull way solv the problem.


But this subjet has nothing to do with the Spiritual purpus of this forum it belongs elswhere.



Going back to the subject of premarital sex that was mentiond I have to say that it is a problem of the individual. Just like all other things it can be procived as good or bad or gray, dependig on our personal "reality filter"[)]
Everyone has to choose for themselvs. I can only choose for myself and be like a beeken for other people to follow. If they choose to do good things then good for them, if they choose to do bad things then they should be stoped before they hurt someone else.
I think that the ultimate evil is limiting someones independenc.[]

[awg100]

I was wondering somthing a lot of u who say that u hate the US list as a major reson that it suports Isral well as a jew I expected that but I've never herd a muslims of this apinan say why[?]

[jilola]

Let's take an objective ('cause everyone knows my thoughts are always objective;or else...) view for a moment.

Terrorism is a phenomena caussed by social and economic conditions that leave the people with no other way to excert their influence other than desperate and violent action.
Individuals seeing that as a means to further their own causes and fortify their power use anything to justify such behaviour and to perpetuate it as best they can. They use religion and heavenly redemption since this is what most people see as the ultimate authority and reward.
What the religion being used says in the matter is conveniently edited or repressed to further the goals.
The bible says "Do not kill" yet the crusades happened, yet christianity is still being shoved down peoples throats as the oinly true faith all the while abhorrinng that some other religious so-called leader do the same.

As the original poster said "Radical Islam" has done something. What is radical Islam and has anyone stopped to find out what Islam is a bout?
"Radical Christianity" has replied in kind but has anyone stopped to consider what Christianity is all about?

I pose a question: Has anyone stopped to consider anything on their own or has everyone just accepted ideas spoon fed to them by someone else?

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[Narrow Path]

Radical Islam has declared war on the U.S.

It is called a Holy War. Are there any Muslims here that care to convey why they hate America so much? If it is a "Holy War" than I am taking a leap of faith and assuming that it is because this is a Christian country?