Agnosticism and Atheism

[Gandalf]

Other than those who I have met on this website, in my little world, I have not met anyone who does not claim to be a Christian

Seriously?
That idea scares me. Your community cannot be that insular. Where about do you live?

Douglas

[Lighthouse]

Greek word Gnosis
Gnostic = Knowing or knowledge of God
Theistic = God/Belief
A = Not/without

Therefore:
Agnostic = Without knowledge of God
Atheistic = Without belief in God



Just because one may call him or herself Agnostic does not mean they do not believe in God, that is the definition of Atheistic.  Just because one does not claim to know all the answers, this does not mean they reject God it merely means they are unsure of the true nature of God or a higher power.  Atheistic is therefore one who does not believe in God as we understand the word in common terms.

Perhaps the wisest of all is he/she who claims not to know all the answers.

[Coffee]

I reject every notion of God.

There is no divine purpose.

There is no perfect being.

[Avalon]

Gandalf - I live in Kansas. [8D] I see you are from the UK.  I live in the middle of the US, in a place known as the "bible belt".  A few years ago, the state of Kansas decided to remove the teaching of evolution from it's standard school curriculum because it conflicts with the teaching of Creationism.  We were the laughing stock of the nation.  And probably still are.  There were some who disagreed, of course, but not enough to reverse the decision quickly.  

Lighthouse -

"Perhaps the wisest of all is he/she who claims not to know all the answers."

Oh, most definitely.  How's this for a good quote: "The problem with the world is that fools are so sure of themselves while more reasonable people are full of doubts.". -Bertrand Russell

Sorry for confusing the definitions of atheism and agnosticism and mispellings.  There are some interesting definitions here, if one is interested:

http://freethought.freeservers.com/reason/definitions.html

[Avalon]

quote:Originally posted by Avalon

Gandalf - I live in Kansas. [8D] I see you are from the UK.  I live in the middle of the US, in a place known as the "bible belt".  A few years ago, the state of Kansas decided to remove the teaching of evolution from it's standard school curriculum because it conflicts with the teaching of Creationism.  We were the laughing stock of the nation.  And probably still are.  There were some who disagreed, of course, but not enough to reverse the decision quickly.  

Lighthouse -

"Perhaps the wisest of all is he/she who claims not to know all the answers."

Oh, most definitely.  How's this for a good quote: "The problem with the world is that fools are so sure of themselves while more reasonable people are full of doubts.". -Bertrand Russell

Sorry for confusing the definitions of atheism and agnosticism and mispellings.  There are some interesting definitions here, if one is interested:

http://freethought.freeservers.com/reason/definitions.html

And a link to an article about the Creationism vs. Evolution decision:
http://www.cnn.com/US/9908/12/kansas.evolution.flap/

[WalkerInTheWoods]

Gandalf, did you ever wonder why Bush likes to talk about God, good and evil, and play up to Christianity in his speeches? The vast majority of the US population is Christian. Most are so because that is what they grew up as and never cared to look at other religions or ideas. Most have never even been exposed to any other ideas. The even sadder thing is, most do not want to hear other ideas and so it can be like trying to discuss such matters with Narrow Path. No one knows how to just sit and discuss ideas without being offended or thinking that someone has to come out as being right. In the US, if you do not want to a fight you don't discuss religion or politics. Is it not like this in the UK?

[Gandalf]

No, not at all. In the UK, religion and politics are firmly kept apart, to the extent that it is not 'politically correct' for any major polititian to talk about their own personal beliefs.

Although the Anglian church is the 'official religion' and so on, this is really just a case of tradition. The thing is, in the UK we have a large multi-religious population. We have large denominations of all the major Christian divisions but we also have a massive Muslim population as well (there is a large indian/Packistani population here). There is also a large proportion of Hindus.
Of course this doesnt count all the athiestic/agnostic population as well.

Although the UK has been critisised by some american christian circles, I think that part of the reason that there is such a (almost paranoid) effort to ensure that religion plays no part in politics, is because in the UK we have had a bad experience with religion merging with politics in the past; this goes back to the Crusades and more recently to Oliver Cromwell and the puritanical nutcases (banning Christmas etc!).

All this is remembered, so we are very careful not to allow any particular religion to be promoted or utilised over another, for political puroposes here in the UK. Rather 'multi-ethnic' and 'multi-religious society' is the buzzword, but no polititian would be seen activly promoting any particular religion or stating that his/her political motiviations come from god... he/she wouldnt last long in that case!

Of course we get our fair share of bible thumpers as you do in any country but they dont have any real political influence.


Douglas

PS  PM Tony Blair has been critisised on this count as he was been displaying worrying 'evangelical' characteristics over the past few years, which some have blamed on his associations with George Bush.

[Avalon]

I think I'll be moving to the U.K.  Just kidding.  I've visited England and I really enjoyed my time there (step family are all Brit's).

I knew that Blair was being criticized.  I did not know some criticize him for admission of his religious beliefs.  Interesting.

[greatoutdoors]

Someone posted an inquiry as to whether someone raised on an isolated island would be atheistic or would have a belief in God. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the example, but that has in fact occurred frequently in history and the answers are in the book. Hawaii, Tahiti, Fiji, etc. come to mind. Also relevant would be the development of Native American beliefs. Most of those early religions involved nature worship of some kind. For myself, I can see how that can happen. The Druids would be another example of independant religious development.

While I'm not saying that atheism and agnosticism never existed in those isolated cultures, it appears rare until a society reaches a point of economic plenty. When folks can produce enough food and shelter to provide comfort and still have time on their hands, then the philosophical debates begin. That's when the more esoteric religions begin to be seen (Paganism, Christianity, Islam, etc) and the atheist and agnostic discussions begin to appear.

The human mind seems universally to want or need something/someone greater than itself. John Campbell has written on this I believe. When you get right down to it, even the belief in OBE expressed by many on this site could well be nothing more than another manifestation of that search for "something above all". My agnosticism extends to that area as well, because I believe the vast majority of the OBE's related on this site are just dreams -- not reality (IMO).

BTW, the Buddist religion would fall into the Atheistic category. They do not, as I understand it, believe in divine deities. Rather, they venerate very human people as great teachers who have become enlightened. Even Buddha is not a "god" per se. And each Buddhist may aspire to become a Buddha. I don't know if there are other religions with this philosophy.

For myself, I have to put myself firmly in the agnostic camp. I am exploring and searching, but have no answers yet. I know the cosmos is enveloped in energy that pervades absolutely everything. Some religions (Wicca, Druids, etc.) believe this energy can be manipulated by those who "tap into" its power, while other religions believe the energy is sentient, hence "God". I just don't know. []

[Avalon]

Uh, that woulda been me.[]

I agree that a belief in a higher power would develop.  Would it be the God that is worshipped by Christians was my point.  Although, I may not have made it that well.[]

Like you, I'm still "undecided".  

Interesting post.  Thanks!

[greatoutdoors]

Avalon, thanks for the clarification -- now I see where you were coming from! []

I guess my answer would be an emphatic "Maybe". Some early religions do have a similarity to Christianity, but only in a very generic sense. Nature worship often involves fickle dieties (am I spelling that right?), requiring rituals and sacrifices of varying kinds to keep on the divine good side. And more than a few of them require "right behaviour" from their adherents. That's about as close a connection as I've seen.

Hope the holidays treat you well! []

[Coffee]

Many devout christians including St. Thomas Acquinas have been known to fall deeply into "faith crisis" where they doubted or refused to believe in God.

St. Thomas Acquinas believes faith crisis are just as important as faith, since you have to question your faith in order to understand it.  

The part I don't understand, is this:  Once you doubt your faith, what causes you to start believing again?  

I see how religions develop, they explain things that otherwise couldn't be explained.  Throughout history Gods have controlled the weather, the crops, lover's fertility and the fate of everyone who inhabits the world.  Religions explains miracles and tragedies.  And it explains the poor situation all humans are in, depending on how you define it.

An uninfluenced inhabitant on an untouched island would develop some notion of God but since I don't belive in God, I think the islander would worship a different God than the Christians.  

The islander's God would provide food and shelter, but would also punish fiercely with lava, bad weather, famine, etc.  

The christian God promises a reward or punishment after this life, but no promises to give anyone anything in this life.  

Once I started to understand that slaves don't deserve punishment, children and virgins don't deserve to be sacraficed, women aren't inferior to men, people aren't born sinners but they're made that way, and people aren't complacent sheep but they have a passionate desire to understand things, then I wondered; what do I need God for?  And I've never found a reason.  He made us pretty much self-suffecient.

The way I see it, God has promised to burn me in hell for all eternity if I'm bad, and if I'm good I get to be his faithful servant in heaven.  Sounds like a trick to me.

Any way, I am Agnostic because I don't believe we can understand God.  The more you try to define him, the more problems you create.  Even St. Thomas Acquinas, who spent his entire life trying to prove the existance of God and wrote several books (several thousand pages each) in an attempt to prove God exists, admitted that he never could succeed. In our world, God is a logical impossibility.  If he does exist somewhere, he refuses to participate here on earth and might as well not exist at all.

On a lighter note, I know quite a few people who openly claim to be christians but secretly are wiccan.  I also know people who claim to be Buddhist but are mostly christian.  They take what they like and leave the rest.

[greatoutdoors]

Coffee, you raise some very good points! In fact, I could use much of your post to explain why I am an agnostic.

You also pose an interesting question: "The part I don't understand, is this: Once you doubt your faith, what causes you to start believing again?"

I have a couple of answers, neither of them to be taken as "final".

First, I think it's a part of human nature to question and rebel at certain points in life. The teenage years come to mind, but it happens again at about 30 and 50 years, on average. But these periods of "questing" are seemingly pretty much a physical process, and when they pass, the person reverts to the comfort of either their birth religion or the religion to which they have been most exposed. In other words, the doubting was never "real", but just a part of the physical process.

A second explanation involves something I've mentioned in other places. And that is that there really is something out there! I am a great believer in hard science. I give scientists credit for having solid proof of the "natural laws" they quote. The whole of our cosmos is made of energy and matter -- neither of which can be either created or destroyed. (Laws of Conservation of Matter and Energy). I think people instinctively know this and maybe it brings them to some type of religion. On a nice spring day, if you stand outside around sunup or sundown and spread your arms, you can feel this energy buzzing and humming through your body. (Yes, you can do the same thing anytime, anywhere, but my scenario makes a pretty picture, yes? []).

And the above (maybe both of them) explains where I'm at in my spirit journey. I find the notion of blood sacrifice abhorrent and the notion of a "Daddy" God nonsensical. I also have an ego problem when it comes to bowing down to anything or any one. That rather limits my religious choices! I'm not happy being agnostic. I'd love to be able to have a firm faith in some "greater being". But right now, the theory that's ahead on points in my race is that when we die, that's it -- game over. Nevertheless, my quest continues. []

[Avalon]

I have recently gone through what you guys are discussing, or the faith crisis.  I've called it the dark night of the soul though.

Although I never had a firm belief in God, as I've entered my thirties, I've felt something profoundly missing in my life and wondered often if "this is it"?  Is this all?  I get up, get my kids ready, go to work, come home, cook dinner, play with the kids, get them ready for bed, then put myself to bed.  Wash, rinse repeat. [)]

I started feeling depressed.  I found a great book about the subject called "The 5 Stages of the Soul" (don't remember the author off the top of my head right now).  It discusses this feeling, how many people go through it and even more interesting how everyone comes out on the other side enlightened but in many, many different ways.  It says that we so many times "miss the call" throughout our lives.  

Anyhoo, it made me feel a little better that I was not the only person experiencing this.  I thought it was all because I just had no belief in God and at this point never will.  Part of me wants to believe but part of me doesn't want to believe in anything just for the sake of having something to believe in.  I want the truth and I know that's just asking too much.  []

[Mustardseed]

Happy Christmas to you all. I had just a few questions that I would like to ask you on this thread.

I have been reading the posts but did not think it was worth to get involved. Just so much disagreement and it kind of multiplies easily. Firstly I find it a bit crude that you talk in the terms you do about Christians , ministers "spew" their words, believers "decieve" etc but seeing that many of you have had most of your Christian experiences with Church people , I understand and sympathise.

My observation and question is this. In the threads and in the posts, people all ask questions. Some believe or refuse to believe based on "How could that be" or "i just dont understand how...." basically using human intelligence and mans limited knowledge, which is (when you take the universe into consideration) very limited indeed. Does that not ring a bell with some of you???. Would it not stand to reason that if there is a God, then his ways nature and reasoning must be quite different and above ours. (if not lightyears ahead[])

If we judge the existance or non existance, validiti, plausability or logic of God or the absence of the same based on our conception of how and why he did it, I think we make a biased judgement. What do you think?

I do believe in God, as some of you know. I try to stay away from "Christ said etc" as that would be a stupid and unfair way of reasoning , but the Bible is full of very interesting observations and still represent an opinion at least. As an example it says "as the heaven is higher than the earth so my ways are higher than your ways".

Once in a while I think it is wise that we all just relax a bit, and compare notes, and stop assuming we as individuals can "figure" it all out. We are all like little kids in the  proverbial sandbox, trying to explain to each other how Santa flies in a sled!!!!. This is also a aspect of faith and belief, That the universe , God or whatever knows what they are doing, we can rest assured that things are moving along.....nicely. It is good to ask questions and use our mind it is also good to have opinions, but if our opinions become so ridgid that we refuse to take another look at someone elses we ourselves become the "author of our own little beliefsystem terretory". (and we dont wanna go there do we???[])

Selah

Mustardseed

[cainam_nazier]

I would have to agree with you fully Mustardseed.  That is why I am Agnostic and not an Athiest.  I simply lack the knowladge either way on the subject.  I also agree that it is most likely possible that any god would be on such a different level than the rest of us that we could not possibly know what he or she thinks, that being unless god itself was present and explained things.  And I find any one who starts a sentance with, "Well (insert diety) wants us to do such and such, or say such and such" is arogant to think that they know beyond a shadow of a doubt what thier chosen god wants everyone else to do.  It is just insane to think that you are so special that your diety picked you over every one else.  That is just what I believe.

quote:We are all like little kids in the proverbial sandbox, trying to explain to each other how Santa flies in a sled!!!!.

I know that answer.  From the great scholars Chech and Chong.  Its the magic dust...you know a little for the raindear, little for santa, a little more for santa.

[greatoutdoors]

Avalon, thanks for your post. I too, feel like I am slogging all alone through a dreary bog, and never a clue as to why. Same dance, day after day until finally you die. And if you're really lucky, you'll die before your loved ones and not have to bear that pain. It's maddening! I will try and check out the book you mention -- can't hurt. [^]

Mustardseed, I think our philosophy is pretty similar, except I think it leads us to different conclusions. Philosophically, I believe there may be more than just raw energy in the universe -- and that we may be just ants and can't see reality. But I still want to know. [] The Christian new testament promises in many places that a seeker will find what they seek. Buddhists promise enlightenment. I think Hindus promise Nirvana. All I've found so far is a blank wall and total silence. The closest I've come to a spiritual communication was in Muir Woods in California. Awesome doesn't begin to describe that experience. But I've been totally unable to find that feeling in religion. But I'm going to keep slogging for a while yet, and see what this "doubting Thomas" can discover. []

[Lighthouse]

When I was in my late 20's I was having similar feelings (feelings of incompleteness and wanting some answers.)  I just got married and my husband suggested to quit my job and figure out what I really wanted to do.  I thought this was the best gift anyone could give me and thought if I could do anything I wanted to do, I would figure out my life purpose.  I read What Color is your Parachute and other similar books but they all told me what I was good at doing, not what would make me feel fulfilled, something I would want to do for the rest of my life.  I came across an article written by Jon Snodgrass, PhD entitled, "Your Special Function according to A Course in Miracles"(ACIM).  I had been a student of ACIM and this piqued my interest.  

He addressed these types of feelings you are discussing in his article.  He said, "Whatever you perceive to be the reality of your own guilt, sin, or victimization is the exact polar opposite of your Special Function.  What is missing is your gift, your weakness is your strength, your special dysfunction is your special function."  I thought about this for a moment and said to myself, "Well, what is my special dysfunction?... I'm fat" (I always have had body image problems... as far back as I can remember... I'm a size 8 now after 2 kids and still want to lose more weight)  No, being fat wasn't it... then I thought, "I don't really like myself very much."  No, that wasn't it either.  Then the thought came, "I don't LOVE myself." With that, I started jumping around the room and thanking everyone who ever hurt me.  I realized that these people were all showing me the context to understand what I had been rejecting about myself all along. (the entire account is written in my workbook, for the entire thing, go to www.healingcenter.com.)

When I came to this realization, I understood that all the unhappiness and discontent that I had been experiencing my whole life had to do with my feeling that God (or whatever you want to call the intelligence that permeates the universe) was somehow separate from me.  I realized through this experience that I am God and that God dwells within me, God is my intelligence, my emotions, my creativity and my Love.  Without me, God is incomplete.  Without everyone fully accepting themselves, God is incomplete and so is everyone else (since we are all God... in my opinion.)  By rejecting parts of myself, I had been seeing myself as incomplete.  Once I could accept myself completely (at least temporarily... 3 steps forward, 2 steps back) then I could see that that thing that I was looking for was within me all along.  I just needed to acknowledge and accept myself, wrinkles and all for who I was.  

I think the "dark night of the soul" or whatever you want to call it is exactly that.  We don't embrace our own light and therefore, we can not see it... it's like placing a candle in a piece of clay pottery... it only emitts a fraction of its capacity.  If we place it in front of a mirror, or several mirrors, we can light up a huge space.  We all work as mirrors of each others thoughts about ourselves.  If we love ourselves, we will see that reflected in our experience.  If we sheild ourselves from ourselves because we reject parts of ourselves, we see that dimness reflected in our experience.  We sheild parts of ourselves from ourselves because we judge ourselves as unworthy in certain ways and therefore we sheild our own brilliance from ourselves and the world at large.  By embracing ourselves completely, we see ourselves as complete and whole and we understand that we are one with everything and understand our own worth and place in the Universe.

just my $.02

--Kerri

[greatoutdoors]

Lighthouse, thanks for the input. You raise an interesting point because I've never thought much of myself (not poor self-image, just reality check). Maybe that's why others tend to return the favor. I agree with you about "Parachute".

If I'm hearing you right, you're saying that God (or the Force, or whatever) dwells in each of us. But that still seems just a subjective belief. There's no substantive proof, at least to me. In Muir Woods I felt perfectly at peace with myself. In fact, "myself" was totally irrelevant. There was just this euphoric sense of total bliss, a real endorphin overload! I can't describe it. That, to me, was almost a conection with --- something! [!] Was it because I was in a place of power? Was God in that place? Why can't I find that feeling with meditation or prayer or chants? My logical mind tells me it's because the "something" doesn't really exist. And if that's so, it doesn't really matter how I feel about myself -- there's really no one home. Are there any happy agnostics out there?

Sorry, don't mean to be a "downer", just not a good day today I guess.

[Lighthouse]

quote:Originally posted by greatoutdoors

In Muir Woods I felt perfectly at peace with myself. In fact, "myself" was totally irrelevant. There was just this euphoric sense of total bliss, a real endorphin overload!

I believe that state of mind was telling you exactly how it is.  There is no "you" or "me" there is only "we" as being one with the Universe which is why I say that God is incomplete without all of us.  It is my belief (and feel free to discard this if it does not agree with your beliefs) that we all collectively chose to experience this physical world in order to learn who we are.  I don't know if you have ever had a crisis in your life, but I have had a couple.  I found that by going through really hard times, the good times are magnified and are so much greater than they would be if I did not have the contrast of dispair.  I feel that we draw certain experiences to ourselves in order to provide us with the context to understand that the opposite of our negative experience is TRUE REALITY.  I believe also that this physical world is an illusion and the only true and real thing is Love and all the feelings associated with that one emotion.  I believe that we are LOVE and God is love and that is the essence of our being.  We choose to experience this illusion of physical separation in order to understand that we want the opposite of separation to be our reality.  

For a long time, I have yearned to experience that Cosmic Unity or Euphoric state that you describe as my normal waking reality... very few have actually achieved this illumined state on a constant basis, we call them Masters.  I also understand that I must go through lessons of dispair in order to truly know that it is Unity that I want and not separation.  (are you getting this?)

quote:Was God in that place? Why can't I find that feeling with meditation or prayer or chants? My logical mind tells me it's because the "something" doesn't really exist. And if that's so, it doesn't really matter how I feel about myself -- there's really no one home. Are there any happy agnostics out there?

God is in every place, in your heart, in that forest, in life itself.  God is the intelligence that tells the trees to lose their leaves and shut down for winter and is the intelligence that tells the seed to grow into a tree.  God is the force and intelligence that created the cosmos and everything in it.  God is the intelligence that permeates your being and every being.  God is in your best friend and in your enemy, God is in everywhere and everything and it is impossible to be apart from or separate from God.  

It only matters what you think of yourself if you want to experience happiness.  God wants us all to be happy because God wants to be happy and God wants to experience that Euphoric state that you momentarily experienced. God can only do this if All of God experiences God as God and as love.  Without your truly loving yourself, God is incomplete and so am I and so is everyone else.  Once we all recognize who we are, we will all experience that ecstatic state forever... as God.  This is what we all want.  It is called many names, experiencing God, Bliss, Love, Euphoria, heaven, they are all different ways of describing One and ALL which is who we are.  I am you and you are me and there is no separation (which you have experienced.)  

Once we (as a species)stop living in fear and hurting each other and start loving each other and living completely in love, we will then transcend our notion of separation and understand that bliss as our reality.  (am I rambling?.. do you get me?)[?]

--Kerri

[greatoutdoors]

Lighthouse,

No, you're not rambling. What you're saying seems to fit in with what I felt. And I wholeheartedly agree with you about wanting that feeling 24/7! Thanks for your input -- you've given me something to think about for a bit before I do a more in-depth reply. []

[markperson]

What's up with you christians? God threw you out of the garden for something you did not even do. He kicked you to the curb! What's with all the praying? Are you expecting to get back in or something? Yes you believe you go to heaven when you die but what is the point if you can't have any fun now? You may have fun for all eternity later but what's the point of heaven? I mean eternal happiness. Come on! that would be totaly boring any way. What's an afterlife without some chaos some truble? I run on defience and controversy. I could not live without it. But if i'm not living i'm dead. And you christians tell me i will suffer eternal pain and tourment. Who are you guys to tell people if they go to some fictional hell or not. And your god sais that we have a choice if we believe in him or not. Guess agian! he sais that if you refuse him it's hell for you. So yes i'm an atheist

[Lighthouse]

Markperson,

An Atheist is one who does not believe in God.  It looks to me like you are angry with God... this implies belief... am I reading you correctly?


--Kerri

[Lighthouse]

greatoutdoors,

Where are you??? We want you back!!!

Kerri

[greatoutdoors]

Lighthouse, you have no idea how you brightened my day by your post and your email. It is very nice to feel that someone actually is not bored stiff by any comments from me! [] I haven't forgotten this topic, just have been "derailed" by other things. And I do have some tales to tell that may add to the discussion!

Markperson, I have to agree with Lighthouse in one area. What I am hearing from your post is anger. I don't know if that was your intent, or the reasons behind it. But two thoughts I would like to share. The first is, please don't jump to conclusions about "you christians". We are all unique and I dare say no two of us will ever hold exactly the same belief system. For myself, if I had to pick a label, I guess I'm sort of a Druid/Wiccan/Christian/Agnostic. How's that for for solid core beliefs! [] I can't embrace Atheism for the simple reason that hard science tends to disprove that concept. It's a fact that "something's out there." We just don't know what "it" is.

Second thing. Have you ever read this poem by Thomas Hardy?

If but some vengeful god would call to me
From up the sky, and laugh: "Thou suffering thing,
Know that thy sorrow is my ecstasy,
that thy love's loss is my hate's profiting!"

Then would I bear it, clench myself, and die,
Steeled by the sense of ire unmerited;
Half-eased in that a Powerfuller than I
Had willed and meted me the tears I shed.

But not so.  How arrives it joy lies slain,
And why unblooms the best hope ever sown?
—Crass Casualty obstructs the sun and rain,
And dicing Time for gladness casts a moan. . .
These purblind Doomsters had as readily strown
Blisses about my pilgrimage as pain.

I discovered this poem in my early college years, and it is still my mantra. I worship nothing -- which is what separates me from most if not all modern religions. But even so, I keep my mind open and my "powder dry."

Thanks again for listening folks -- you've made my day!! []