What do religions or you say about homosexuality?

[Huwie]

"You claim homosexuals can control their sexual cravings, cant heteros control their sexual cravings?"

Good point!

Listen, my friend who is gay, the one I mentioned earlier, gets a lot of excrement for it.  If he could do anything to be straight, believe me he would.  There is no choice involved whatsoever.

[Gandalf]

quote:
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The 'moral' objections in the bible are simply based on prejudice and ignorance of anyone who is different... nothing new there.
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No, they are based on what God has said and on the purposeful design of the human body.
Exothen_


Oh dear....

In fact they are based on WHAT OTHER MEN have said god has said on the purposeful design of the human body.

It still remains the case that just because you are doing something other than what was originally 'designed' or evolved with regards to the human body, does not equate that it is wrong.

Futhermore, Exothen has chose to ignore the biological view I stated earlier where gay orientation may be percieved as a biological defect on an individual level but on a wider societal level it certainly does fulfil a function, as a safety valve to guard against gender imbalances in the population.

There is also a more important assumption that 'other than designed' equals 'moraly wrong' and Im still to hear a decent explanation on what this is based on, other than its 'against god will'. In fact you can not say this with any more certainty than i can say that the choice of orientation was put there by god for societal reasons, as outlined above, or that some people have been made gay on purpose to test 'christians levels of tolerance', in which case you would have failed!
Even although you may claim 'not to be the one to judge' it is quite clear that you do.

Douglas
Anyhow, I think i have had enough of this thread; I'll leave the narrow minded to their narrowminded views.

[onefromsomewhereelse]

Gand,  isn't it convenient how you deny inspired writings of God, and attribute them to men when it suits you.

My god has the ability to "breathe" his words through his creation.
You should study up on this subject just a bit.

[onefromsomewhereelse]

Xander, I am sure hetros can control their cravings, but as we all know, many don't.  They are just as guilty of sin in that way as are the deviant groups.

[xander]

quote:Originally posted by onefromsomewhereelse

Xander, I am sure hetros can control their cravings, but as we all know, many don't.  They are just as guilty of sin in that way as are the deviant groups.

deviance/normalacy are standards created by those in power to help themselves remain in power.

Xander

[Gandalf]

Gand, isn't it convenient how you deny inspired writings of God, and attribute them to men when it suits you.

My god has the ability to "breathe" his words through his creation.
You should study up on this subject just a bit.

Pardon?

All writings are made by men. The only dispute here is if they are 'inspired'. I think not. However you believe this it is fine for you to do so. The problem here is that you go around stating as fact that the bible is 'the revealed truth of god.'

This means that all other religions conceptions of god are wrong and that we non-christians are also wrong. This is fine for you to state in your opinion or in the churches opinion, but not to state as fact which you do.


Also, how is it that everytime something good happens it is never mans doing, it is always attributed to god. but when something bad happens it is not gods fault.

Douglas

[onefromsomewhereelse]

The Bible says it's inspired; that's why I say it is.  It is easily proven by fulfilled prophecy.  Easy money.

In the screw topic, I'll take a babe.

[Shinobi]

...

[xander]

quote:Originally posted by onefromsomewhereelse

The Bible says it's inspired; that's why I say it is.  

The bible says its the word of god, so does the Qur'an and Torah.
The Jews say theyre the chosen people, the Nazis also said they were the chosen people.

How trite the ego is to ascribe to itself divine connection and dismiss all else. ROFLMAO!

Xander

[Gandalf]

The Bible says it's inspired; that's why I say it is. It is easily proven by fulfilled prophecy. Easy money.

Well not really, if you make suitably vague predictions, succeeding generations can fit events to 'verify' them, this has always happened. Its the oldest trick in the book, nostradamus was an expert as was the writer of revelations.
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Shinobi_
This view is held by me.
You are correct, it is not a view held by ALL biologists, just some.
I should have been more precise. The main origin of this view is mainly held by 'biology influenced sociologists' to be more exact.
Also the view as to whether the genes themselves are actually altered in any way is debatable, although I agree that the evidence that it is biological (in some cases) is growing.

I learned about this in anthropology classes, where there is also a wide range of views on this.
Anthropologists indicate that gender is socially constructed anyhow, over and above sexuality.

One thing that they all hold however is that just because something does other than 'its biological function' this premise does not logically lead to the conclusion that it is 'morally wrong'. This does not compute.
Some people have pointed towards the notion that it threatens the reproduction of society but this cannot be the case as the gay population, no matter how well it is promoted, always remains small within any population.

All anthropologists recognise that the 'moral arguments' against it all stem ultimately from the common human trait of 'being afraid of what is different'.

However, the idea that an abhorrence of homosexuality is universal has been seen to be false.
There are many human societies where this trait is commonly accepted; its 'difference' is therefore negated and it is a normal part of society. Eriksen (2001) describes one such tribe where it is considered acceptable for young men to engage in homosexual relationships up until marrying age, this provides them with sexual experience. They then move on to their 'hetero phase' where they marry and have kids.
In fact they have no definition of 'homo and hetero' these are just terms coined by us to promote this perceived distinction between them.

cf Thomas Eriksen's anthropological primer 'Small Places, Large Issues, an introduction to social and cultural anthropology' (London : Pluto books Ltd, 2001)

Douglas

[gleizner]

Hi,

    A shaman I worked with for a number of years was a homosexual.  He and his mate lived together, worked together, ceremonied together (using a combination of his shamanism and his partners wiccan and greek practices).  

    Here's the simple truth regarding homosexuality.  I don't proclaim anything strongly, but on this one subject I have to say the common sense answer is obvious, and for the most part missed due to the general developmental level of consciousness present on the planet right now.  If you haven't experienced yourself beyond your human state, you won't be able to understand this or why I am so sure, and to you all I can say is, sorry, to each their own.  But back to my opinion.  We have all had extensive lifetimes in this and many other worlds.  We have existed as entities/consciousness/whathaveyou possibly forever, and our entity is in no way tied to a human gender - humanity, 3rd dimensional reality, our existence as we experience right now (what have you), is such a teeny tiny itty bitty little nothing in the eye of infinity that to say any person is inherently male or female based on the body they chose to incarnate in this time around is absolutely brain-bustingly absurd.  We have all been male, we have all been female, and both more times than we can even begin to imagine.  Therefore homosexuality I view as an option in several lights:

1) The person has a life lesson to learn that deals with rejection, hatred, etc - in other words, they are uncontrollably homosexual in order to face the ordeals faced these days by homosexuals.  In this way, their sexual preferrence in a choice made on a higher level which allows them certain experiences which will help them grow.  As tolerance isn't a particularly strong trait of the species right now, homosexuality allows a great deal of growth for these people.

2)  The entity in question has had more lifetimes in one gender, or finds one to be more in synch with its own current nature, yet that entity is currently in a body of the opposite sex.  This can describe why a man could say he has always felt like a woman inside, or vice versa...  In this case, habit/pattern overcomes biological signals.

3)  The entity in question has opened themselves to the point that, other than physical body parts, they are no more male than female or vice versa.  In spiritual advancement, we hit a point where gender definitions and boundaries become utterly meaningless, and so we discard them in order to continue on.  Part of this adrogenous nature may allow for bisexual behaviour.

4)  Finally, some people just want to push everyone else's buttons.  They may consciously choose to be homosexual in order to challenge other belief systems that would dare to denounce them.  This may well go on subconsciously, but I'd see it as a force at work regardless.

JP

[Mustardseed]

It is also entirely possible that some through excessivly relying on lust (sexual) for personal gratification, open themselves to neg influences and become overshadowed or possessed by female spirits. (Yes I do believe that there are male and female negs as well as the spirits of the departed). This could be in a similar way that other substance abuse problems are inflicted,Robert B talks about it relating to drunks and touches on sexual lust, hetero as well. Simply excess lust that brings on a neg infestation.

Flaming is wasted on me

Regards Mustardseed

[kakkarot]

or it's possible that all people have all sorts of sexual lusts, and most people subconsciously block out the ones that aren't "normal" in their view, while others don't try and block out those desires.

truth be told, i used to sometimes have inklings of sexual desire for males, but i've since quelched those desires because i choose to be heterosexual. perhaps everyone has these desires and different people treat them differently (ie, some give in, some don't, some punish themselves for the thoughts while others wish they could allow themselves to give into them).

i view the desire to have sex with someone of the same sex as just another sexual practice: just like BDSM, the lusting after redheads, exhibitionism, lust for things taboo, etc. i highly doubt it's hard wired (via genetic coding or whatnot) into some people.

~kakkarot

[The AlphaOmega]

I recall when I was a kid in the 4th grade there was a boy in my class who was very feminine.  He liked to wear little mermaid shoes and dressed up in womens clothes sometimes, and only hung out with girls.  He is now gay.  Even before he had an idea of what sex and being gay ever even he felt most comforted with himself when being feminine.  At such an age do you think that he chose to be gay?  That's just who he felt he was.  If anyone thinks that they know if it's ok to be gay or not, these people need to stop being so close-minded.  Untill you've walked in another persons shoes, and felt the things they have felt, then you can't determine anything about them.  Besides, why does everyone care who other people are sleeping with anyways?  Girl girl, guy guy, it's all still something that doesn't concern anyone but themselves anyways.  If you don't like it, don't do it.  That's the beauty of choice.  But don't critisize the choices of others, because they are just as free to make them as you are.

[Mustardseed]

If you are referring to me I did not intend to judge anyone, but was merely wondering what it is and what brings it on. I believe it is an influence from the spirit. My opinion. Is that ok with you? Or would you rather we all take a course in sensitivity training and learn how to avoid such subjects, so we do not hurt anyones feelings.

[Nagual]

On a side note, I remember zapping and seeing some documentary on some natives in south america I think.  One family had so many sons that the last one was purposefuly raised as a girl...  It looked very unsual to see this big guy act like a woman... [|)]  In fact, it did not look like acting at all (as you could see with some gays); he was a woman (except biologicaly).

[kakkarot]

do straight people choose to be straight then? or are we destined to be such before we understand such things?

dressing up as a girl and actually being homosexual are two different things (referencing theAlphaOmega's post). after all, i know a gay guy who loves most of the things the stereotypical straight males love (the kinds of things that stereotyped homosexuals supposedly don't like), so what do these things have to do with sexuality?

the fact is, homosexuals either choose to keep their sexual desires for people of the same sex, or they don't choose to rid themselves of their sexual desires for people of the opposite sex. just like straight people either don't rid themselves of their sexual desires for people of the opposite sex, or they actually choose to rid themselves of their sexual desire for people of the same sex.

hair colour is a physical trait that you have no choice over (though some people actually can change their hair colour, most cannot). the actions you perform are CHOICES that you make, things that you (should) have complete control over. if you choose to have sex with someone of the same gender as you, then you are CHOOSING to be homosexual, there is no "it's just who he/she is". technically choosing to not have sex with people of the same gender, REGARDLESS of what your body lusts after, is the choice to be not homosexual since being homosexual means that you actually *willfully* have sex with people of the same gender (ie, being raped does not count).

would you believe a mass murderer killed people because "it was in his genetic code"? because it was who he was and he couldn't change it? or how about rapists? i think not.

now, i'm NOT saying that my opinion is that homosexuality is good or bad, i'm just pointing out that homosexuals have just as much choice in what they do and who they are as heterosexuals. so it's not "just who they are", it's what they choose to be.

~kakkarot

[Huwie]

My homosexual friend would disagree with you, kakkarot.  He would do anything to be heterosexual if it were possible.  He never wanted to be gay, and it was very difficult for him to accept it when the realisation came.

[The AlphaOmega]

I wasn't refering to anyone specifically.  But now that you mention it, it does kind of sound like you could use a sensitivity course.  Or maybe a sarcastics anonymous []

[onefromsomewhereelse]

As Ben Frankliln said to his homosexual cousin, "You didn't get a round mouth like that by eating square meals"...

[shedt]

If you do research into it, the majority of animals in the wild are roughly %10-%20 homosexual. Some dophlins acutally pair-bond with the same sex for life. Zoologists and those who are nature watchers see this happen all the time.

[The AlphaOmega]

Kakkorot, that's just sheer ignorance talking.  You say that everything is a choice, then that would also apply to you being straight.  You said it yourself... "do straight people choose to be straight"?  I don't "choose" to be straight, I just am.  Is it physically possible to have sex with someone of the same sex, probably, if it aroused me.  But does that mean it's what I want to do?  The simple truth is, if you are not gay, and have never been gay, then we can't make any determining factors as to what a gay person chooses or doesn't choose.  The problem is, I know that I cannot experience what a gay person feels towards a same sex partner, and therefor I CHOOSE to accept that person for what they are.  You on the other hand are in the same situation, but you CHOOSE to seek reasons why it is not right to be gay.  Is your sexual preference your choice?  Did you reach a crossroads at some time in your life and decided to be straight instead of gay, though it could have gone either way?  Somehow I doubt it.  How can you possibly know if it's not just as natural for a gay person to feel gay as it is for you to feel straight?

[kakkarot]

arousal is different from the actual act of sex. no matter how much desires a person might have to have sex with people of the opposite gender, if they CHOOSE to have sex with people of the same gender (even if they feel no arousal at all) then they are homosexual, right?

in the same way, a person who has desires to have sex with people of the same gender AND WILLFULLY MAKE THE CHOICE TO ACT UPON THOSE DESIRES ACT UPON THOSE DESIRES are homosexuals. if a person has the desire to have sex with someone of the same sex BUT DOES NOT act upon those desires, then they are not really homosexual.

when a straight person has sex with someone of the opposite gender, they *choose* to have sex. when a gay person has sex with someone of the same gender, they *choose* to have sex. unless you're under the influence of some sort of mind-altering substance/effect, how can you have sex without choosing to? rape is the only way a person can have sex without willfully choosing to have sex, BY DEFINITION. are you a slave to your lusts in that whenever you feel the slightest inkling of arousal you go out and screw whatever the object of your arousal is? *or*, when you are in a situation where you understand sexual intercourse is likely to occur, do you actually think to yourself "hm, yeah that person's hot. i'll go for it" thereby making the decision to have sex?

it seems that certain people think that sexuality is a part of you like your skin colour is: "it just is". no, a person isn't "just like that". the desires might be there without a person really wanting them to be there, but only when a person chooses to act upon those desires do they become heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual.

after all, the things a person lusts after (whether they be sexual things or not) can be changed within the person; merely saying a person "has no choice" about their sexuality is like saying they have no capability to actually think about the acts they commit.

~kakkarot

[kakkarot]

actually, has anyone defined homosexuality for use in this thread? i don't recall it being done. there are a few different ways it can be defined, and my posts have been based upon the definition of homosexuality as being a person who has sex with another person of the same gender.

is that the same definition that others are going by?

because if a person is going by the definition that homosexuality is having an "attraction" to people of the same sex, than most of my posts don't apply since having an attraction to someone is much different from just having sex with someone.

hiebreed's original post was about *loving* (ie, not neccessarily sexual) a person of the same gender (is that your definition of homosexuality hiebreed). and regarding simply that, my opinion is still that it's up to the individual who they want to love.

~kakkarot

[Huwie]

quote:Originally posted by kakkarot

arousal is different from the actual act of sex. no matter how much desires a person might have to have sex with people of the opposite gender, if they CHOOSE to have sex with people of the same gender (even if they feel no arousal at all) then they are homosexual, right?

Wrong.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say crap.  By your reasoning, if a heterosexual has desires to have sex with someone of the opposite sex, but doesn't (in other words, doesn't have any sex at all) then that person is asexual?  That's a bit of a silly way to think, isn't it?

I'm going to say this one last time.  There is NO choice involved at all.  Even if I wanted to have sex with another man, I couldn't do it because frankly I'd feel ill.  Why?  Because I'm heterosexual, whether I like it or not!