New here ... with some questions

Mobius · July 11, 2002, 00:53:43

G,day Countess

Welcome to Astral Pulse, I'm sure will will enjoy your stay. You will probably find a variety of positions held on what happens to the body during an OBE, but from everything I have read, dreams & lucid dreams are a mild form of an OBE, but when leaving the body & consciously choosing to do so & then either entering the real time zone or an astral plane, but choosing to do so is different I believe.

The different bodies contained within has been part of many religions & cultures for many years & Robert Bruce does a good job in describing logically our astral body & talks about a projectable double be generated from your etheric body, which stays with you until your physical form ceases to be, an original copy of all your information that stays until death.

So the consensus seems to be that we have 1) a physical body, 2) an etheric body & 3) the projectable double that the etheric body generates, that can either dream, but wake up & not realise it, or dream & realise your dreaming, or realising your dreaming & interacting by choice (lucid dream), or you can leave your body, but have been asleep, woke up & forgot, or you can be having an OBE asleep, but suddenly realise what is happening, consciously act or participate & then remember it when you wake.

Or you can be aware the entire way, realizing you have a projectable double & consciously choosing to leave the body, noticing the falling sensation or vibrations or rising/ floating sensations, being conscious of it happening & actually catch the astral wave like the silver surfer & move with a purpose to some destination or entity you wish to interact with.

Anyway, someone else might give you some other ideas as to what the consensus of this forum is, once again welcome & good journeys.

Mobius

lucid dancer · July 11, 2002, 02:44:45

Don't be surprised if you don't get a lot of other replies. Mobius is just TOO good! What a complete and satisfying reply! Robert Bruce brings up a plethura of unknown concepts. He's the author of Astral Dynamics which is huge, but when you're done reading, you're going to wish the book was twice as big. He reports what he actually experiences. Everything is true. No guess work. Welcome to the forum.

WalkerInTheWoods · July 11, 2002, 05:14:58

On these forums you will find a mix of ideas as well. Most people here are positive and try to respect each other. I think that the majority of people here believe that we actually leave our bodies in some form when we project. I do not agree with everything that Robert Bruce says, but I have a lot of respect for him for finding his answers on his own and not just accepting what someone else has said. I believe that everything he says is true to him based on his perception of his experiences.

Welcome to the forum! I hope you enjoy it here!

TheCountess · July 11, 2002, 05:59:14

Thank you all for the wonderful and warm welcome!

I'm familiar with Astral Dynamics, and many people find it to be a very useful book. For the most part, I believe that OBEs are created by expectation and memories, based upon our brain's mental model ... and the astral realm is an OBE that has turned into a lucid dream when REM starts. All in all, virtual reality of the mind. But I'm open to all different ideas on the topic. : )

Do any of you group together for little excursions? Let's say, attempting to meet up on a specific date either somewhere physical, or astral, ... and then later comparing notes on what you have experienced?

BD · July 11, 2002, 08:10:43

Well hello there Countess! Ah yes,... I sometimes frequent alt.oobe as well! hehehe... (but you *knew* that... eh?) Well anyway, thanks for steering me over here.... I like this place! Still have to check out some of the threads, though.
Hey Trish.... check out my profile pic here... (look behind me!)

Greetings also, to any members here reading this, and I look forward to conversing with ya'all ! Thanks! It's nice to be here!

BD

Patty · July 11, 2002, 11:07:16

Bruce -

You in madison? I lived there for a while, GREAT town.

Welcome, countess/Trish? I don't visit newsgroups - they look so cumbersome. But I spend time on the accursed FACTS skeptics board. I love it there. Heh heh.

I'm a skeptic who enjoys projecting. Funny, in their group I'm a believer, in believer groups I'm a skeptic.

I haven't decided for myself what a projection actually represents. I often try to get some verification that we are truly separate from the body, in order to rule out the 'only a dream' possibility. My best guess is that these experiences are on a spectrum ---- the more conscious awareness you have, the further along the spectrum your experience is. Dreamless sleep(rather, not remembered) -> Dreams -> lucid dreams -> OBEs in real time -> presumably hyperreal experiences ->

??

Funny you ask about whether we meet up - I just asked on the lucid dreaming forum if anyone remembered meeting up last night. But I have never seen anything planned in terms of having a meeting. And I just read in AD some musings that RB had about OBE meetings, I guess that even if you try to meet at a physical location you might end up in a created realm that does not entirely reflect the location you targeted. makes sense.

Patty

TheCountess · July 11, 2002, 17:45:33

Hi Bruce!!!!! I loved the picture. Guess this means that I don't have to put one up now since my own pics are in your background. : ) I wonder if anyone else from the group will post over here. I hope that Julia will. This place would be just right for her ... and soothing to be away from the "skeptic invasion".

Hi Patty ....... well I guess we have something in common! Over on my usenet group I'm pretty much considered a believer. We have some very particular skeptics over there. Here, I would probably be considered a skeptic. I tend to agree with your consciousness spectrum. I've had OBE since I was 4, and I have yet to get verification of anything physical.

But I don't rule out the possibility of it. Hence, the OBE group "excursions". If there some possible way to get verification, that's one way to do it .... and if people are unsuccessful, it's a way to look back on the experience and consider alternate possiblities. And beyond that .... it's just plain fun. It helps motivate people to have some type of goal.

Mobius · July 11, 2002, 19:47:54

Hi all again

BD & anyone else who comes over to this forum from other sites, welcome too, I'd say a great percentage of members in here are members in 2 or 3 other sites as well, I'm in 3 or 4 others myself & I think it's good for the learning process & gaining more experiences, but this one has become my favourite as the great majority in here are very understanding people.

You will find many skeptics in here too, including me, so don't be afraid to put forth ideas or concepts that you think might be too out there, we are all here to learn.

I don't know of anyone in here who has attempted astral meetings, I think they are exciting & good practice, but very subjective. I've tried it with various groups, but all the ones by correspondence seem to fail or are heavily subjected to reality fluctuations.

Trying to OBE to a place you havn't been to before, will definately be subject to fluctuations, trying to meet people you have never met in person is just as hard. But if you can have a set up where either all members are in the same room for the purpose of an astral meeting or all members have met before & have been to the same place you wish to target, then more positive results are found. How did you guys go? any positive results?

I talked to one of my science lecturers recently about what happens during dream, lucid dream & OBE states, her explanation was remarkably similar to yours Countess. She was telling me that it was all just electrical impulses sent to the brain from all parts of the body during REM, to be interpreted by the brain, which in turn showed the viewer metaphorical images for analysing.

The emotions & memories concept sounds similar to what Freud was trying to say & it fits well with me for explanations on dreaming, but not OBE's. From the age of 6 years onwards I would spontaneously leave my body, move a few metres away & actually see my body & what others were doing in rooms that blocked the view of my physical body.

Growing up in a Catholic/ Christian family was probably the worst thing for me, as when I would say to family as a kid " Hey Mum, you know when you are about to go to sleep & you fall through the bed into another place & float around, what's that?". The reactions from my family at the time, was blood draining from their faces in shock & told me it doesn't happen to any of them, & from every Catholic/ Christian explanation at the time it sounded like my soul was trying to escape from my body & to death.

This caused insomnia for me, because I thought if I let it happen (fall out of my body) & went towards any light, I would die. It took me many years before I gave up the fight of trying to stop my astral body leaving & one day decided, life is pretty crap, everything sucks, tonight when I fall out, I'm not coming back. Needless to say I did come back, but needed much more explanation than " don't do it, it's evil" or "it's not natural" or " it's just your imagination or electrical impulses".

For years before I actually went with the astral flow, I tried to give it every explanation besides leaving my body, but the nightly terror of falling out of my body had me checking the stability of my bed & I thought " just before I go to sleep, somehow the bed drops, like you have just got into a fast moving elevator, but going dooooowwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnn. From my Christian beliefs, down equalled hell. My bed didn't move, so there had to be another explanation.

I have talked to deceased relatives & found information that wasn't known to any living family members or have been told things I didn't know & then verified it later. Maybe when we get machines more advanced than electroencephalographs to measure the brain & body, we might all get some physical proof we can put our hands on, until then we can only share our experiences & theorise about what happens during an OBE.

Good journeys all

Mobius

WalkerInTheWoods · July 12, 2002, 05:47:10

What is real? To me OBE and astral projection are real because I have experiened them. I was actually somewhere experiencing something. It really does not matter if I was actually on another plane or if it was all just in my physical mind. I was still experiencing something so it was real. Truth now is another thing. What is the truth of OBE and astral projections? This question is a little harder to answer. But as far as reality, to me if I experience it is reality. The physical is not the only reality. When we are young we are told that our dreams are not real. As we grow it seems that everything teaches us that the physical is all that is real. I think this is sad as it makes things that we cannot touch or see seem less important. I feel that dreams, whether they are taking place on another plane or are just electrical impulses, are still very important, hold a lot of value, and are real because we experience them. Some of you are looking for proof that projecting is real. But does it matter if you can find a connection between being out of body and the physical? I urge you to not let the physical limit you in your travels. When you are out of body, are you not experiencing something? Are you not somewhere?

TheCountess · July 12, 2002, 10:50:24

I got chills reading that last post. A member of my other group, and a friend I had for years had a statement he used to use to counter the Descartes "I think, therefore I am". Gunnar used to say "I experience, therefore I am." It makes you think, doesn't it? It puts a whole new perspective on things.

Mobius, we didn't have much success with our group gatherings either. But that didn't stop us. We are a close knit group and we liked to do it for fun. Even if it was only the challenge of attempting a conscious OBE on the same day ... and hopefully around the same time, if we could pull it off.

I was raised as a Catholic as well. Fortunately for me, my family wasn't strict on religion. But I do remember going to my Mom when I was very little, and asking her why I could fly around my room at certain times, and other times I couldn't. Her answer was "it was nap time and you must have been dreaming", but that only confused me more because I was sure that I was awake when this happened.

In past OBEs I've been able to see what other people are doing around my house. Usually it's at the onset of an OBE. I'll usually wake myself up right away to check the accuracy of what I've seen. Sometimes I'm correct. Sometimes not. With me, I think, at the onset of an OBE some of my regular senses are still active ... such as hearing for example ... and my brain takes what I hear and automatically fills in the visuals for me. I see what I expect to see, based on what I hear. Guess that's why sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong.

I've never been able to contact anyone deceased and gain any correct information, however.

Mobius · July 12, 2002, 19:11:05

Hi Fallenangel & Countess

What the ! are we all doing our thinking at the same akashic record store or something ? I was just thinking about that Descartes concept last night & reading about it & then Fallenangel posts it! I read the counter to that question last night as well & then Countess posts it! "Folks we are about to take a trip.............to the twighlight zone.

I was going to post on the concept of "I experience therefore I am" in the Integral Philosophy forum in here, under the topic of "Why do you believe in God / Creator ", so if you are familiar with Descartes, I encourage you to come on down to the God topic as we could use all the thought power in the world for that one.

I'll briefly expand on that counter, not that I know either are right, just food for thought: The following is from Freidrich Engels & Karl Marx, ( not my mates, or heroes incase any thought they were, just a quote) from "The material basis of morality" :

"Consciousness can never be anything else than conscious existence, & the existence of men is their actual life process"

This really gets me thinking about our non physical bodies & how could something that has no definate form or a physical brain, learn, gain experiences & retain some form of memory? Even if something had no mind, just the multitude of experiences would be enough to give it direction & to at least feel in some way what it can & can't do, e.g a jelly fish.

So for the non-physical body, there has to be some way in which our non- physical bodies retain memory & have consciousness in between having a physical form & not having a physical form. I feel it wont be long before we discover that through quantum physics, like a matter form of having digital technology, lots of zero's & ones, that actually come together to form an interpretable image.

Sorry for rambling on with rhetoric, but FA7 & Countess, looks like we have been mulling over the same thoughts, hehe.

Good journeys

Mobius

tayeowen · July 12, 2002, 20:19:09

Hello Countess and everyone.

I'm also a regular poster (well, not so regular, lately...) at alt.out-of-body and decided to visit after the Countess mentioned the group here. (Looks like a friendly bunch...)

I probably lean towards being a 'believer', even though - like the countess - I've never had any indisputable verification that OBEs are anything but a mental phenomenon. I'm looking forward to hearing some new ideas and getting to know the folks here.

Mobius · July 13, 2002, 03:06:49

Hi Tayeowen

Going from a recent poll conducted by Adrian on how many in here have experienced OBE's before, there were many in the same boat as you Tayeowen, but people remain fairly positive in here, which is good, as I am sure the majority have had OBE's before but don't recall it exactly or they are just re-learning an old skill they had forgot about, that hovers at the corner of their subconscious.

I must admit, I have had them while being asleep & then realised I was out of body & then took off somewhere, but the majority of my ones, I notice the sensations or feel it first, as soon as I lay down & go with it.

Some historical OBE milestones I was reading about recently :

1882 The Society for Psychical Research (SPR)
702 cases cited, one member of SPR reported an astral voyage to the bedroom of two women he knew resided 3 miles away. They later reported to him that they were shocked by the sight of him standing at their bedside in evening dress.

1965-1966 Dr Charles tart was teaching at the University of Virginia school of medicine & conducted OBE research with Robert Monroe. Monroe's bodily functions were measured by machines during his OBE's. Tart instructed Monroe to project to another room & read a 5 digit number, he couldn't do it but heard the conversation of 2 technicians in another part of the building. Later a woman just called Miss Z correctly identified the digits, a chance of 100,000 to 1, although people have doubted that test.

Miss Z & Monroe both had pulse & brain wave patterns that did not slow down as they would in deep sleep, & REMs were completely absent, showing they were not dreaming, their EEG's showed a lowered voltage during OBE's as well.

1972 American Society for Psychic Research (ASPR)

Karlis Osis & Janet Mitchell studied artist Ingo Swann for 14 months, with similar results as Monroes.

1973 The Psychical Research Foundation (PRF)

Dr Robert Morris in North Carolina worked with Duke University student, Keith (Blue) Haray, who could project to a separate building, read some cards & reported to Dr Morris what he found. Harary perceived himself in 3 different forms 1) a glowing ball of either blue, white or gold, 2) a pinpoint with circular vision or 3) an exact duplicate of his physical body.

1973 Stanford Research Institute (SRI)

Physicists Russell Targ & Harold Puthoff conducted the now famous "remote viewing" studies with members like Pat Price, Skip Atwater & Joe McMoneagle, which was funded by the department of defence.

They defined remote viewing as a form of clairvoyance, but many including myself believe the results were gained more from OBE experiences & not some newly invented clairvoyant term called "remote viewing", funny how one of their most famous Joe McMoneagle found his way into TMI (The Monroe Institute) & into the world of OBE's.

Well, you guys probably knew a lot of what I just wrote, just thought I would whack it in there for some inspiration, anyway enjoy your stay Tayeowen & welcome.

Mobius

tayeowen · July 13, 2002, 13:14:43

Thanks, Mobius.

Yes, I'm familiar with most of the stuff you mentioned. Virtually all of the research that's been done has been pretty thorougly picked apart by the skeptics, I'm afraid. Scientific proof, if it ever comes, is probably pretty far in the future, so for now, it must stay in the "belief" realm as far as the skeptics are concerned.

I have a friend who participated in some of the early RV experiments at SRI. I think there's a difference between OBEs and RV, but it's probably just a perceptual thing.

I'm pretty experienced with OBEs, so I know how real they feel. I don't really expect to find any 'utlimate' answers here, but I enjoy hearing about other people's experiences and their ideas about them. I'm especially interested in the common themes and symbolism that run through the different experiences. The many congruences do seem to point to some form of universal consciousness (a la Jung?), don't they? I guess what form that takes would be the sticking point, eh?

TheCountess · July 13, 2002, 20:28:20

Hi tayeowin .... glad to "see" you here. This does seem to be a pretty active group. I haven't seen Julia posting in the ng lately. I think she would like some of the groups here.

shandor · July 14, 2002, 00:44:18

Hi'
hey Mobius no one else would get the "What the " joke but us Rove Live Aussie fans......Just a thought when reading your post on memory stuff.........the silver cord connecting the 2 bodies could be transfering the memories and other information into the physical brain, and deciphering sensations "felt" by the astral body into physical body language and sensations...just a thought...

spz

Mobius · July 14, 2002, 01:15:33

G,day Shandor

Hehe, I thought, when people read that they won't know what I mean, doesn't matter, it's good that someone else can visualize the context in which I put it.

Seen you around a bit & liked your posts & also noticed you had the gateway series from another post. I stuffed up & bought the tapes in a set & now I'm replacing them all again on cd, I'm up to wave 5 & will sell the tapes when I get the whole series on cd. I find them fairly useful & believe they assist me in acheiving a meditative state, a trance state & OBE's.

I've bought mine from Erevna, Inter- dimensions & altered- states, you used any of those guys?

However, I was allready experiencing OBE's before I got them & was just hoping that they could assist me in having better control & to generaly refine the whole process, which they did.

The function of the silver cord & memory/ information transfer is an interesting concept on it's own isn't it? Thanks for the input & filling in the gaps for me, it's such a wide subject & so hard to be concise, but say what you want to say.

Good journeys all

Mobius

shandor · July 15, 2002, 04:07:15

Hi mobius,
i stuffed up too and bought all tapes but they wernt avaliable on cd when i first started with them.(dont supose you have a cd burner do you?)...hav'nt heard off this "Erevna,inter dimension and altered states"mob are they Australian? Once you convert the price to Aussie $ these days its abit out of my price range to buy them all over again.....do you find much diference in using the cd's as aposed to the tapes?have you ever had a consciouse obe while listening to any of the taped exercises?If so which one ?What about the last series focus 21, how have you found them?I hav'nt used them for awhile and feel its about time i dusted them off and started using them again........ I'm yet to have enough control of my Astal body to do any seriouse experimenting ,i still get blown away from my short trips around the ceiling and puting my head into the stone walls.....How about you, whats your experiences like?......Travell well in good ways ....shandor

spz

Mobius · July 15, 2002, 05:18:58

G,day Shandor

I've allready checked out the chances of burning them, but havn't actually burnt one & done any tests to see if the binaural beats come through clear enough & the subliminal stuff as well. I talked to different people I know here in Oz about doing it but everyone was told the same thing, that the hemi-sync sounds don't come through properly & so lessen the experience.

After talking to a guy about the tapes, he convinced me about the cd's & although it cost me a bit more & had to buy a cd walkman/discman, I'm extremely happy with my decision. For one the cd doesn't slam off after 30mins & abruptly bring you back into full waking state like the tapes, also no tape hissing & no getting any tapes chewed up like I did with one.

I must admit, I have only had a couple of brief OBE's while using the cd's/tapes & that was in Wave 1 cd 3, focus 10 free flow & Wave 7 Moving into focus 21. Although from Monroes description on that particular focus level, that is not where I went. The next night I went to what he termed focus 21 or "the park or reception centre", but without the cd's. I think of them as going to the gym for your mind, a couple of days at the gym & you are sore & see no results, but a dedicated 1 week schedule does the world of good for enhacing yourself.

After spontaneously having them since 6, but without control until about 21 & that was just the lucid dreams, as far as OBE's go I'm a bit like Frank, I can get out & get into some interesting places,higher & lower astral levels, real time zone, but it's all about the control, the control of the mind on what you need or want to focus on & keep it going, without fluctuations coming in & testing my powers of logic & rationality.

Sometimes just a word said from someone else or an idea put forth is enough to consider applying it on the astral & every experience whether dream,lucid dream or OBE is now recorded in a diary with their own little episode titles like "the puruit" "the skyscaper" "family meeting" & dialogue follows.

As far as the companies I get them from, I've been shopping around to see which way works out cheapest. EREVNA is advertised in Nexus magazine as their Australian distributor, but all of them say that, they are in Melbourne. Inter- dimensions is run by a very smart and evolved individual on the Gold coast, he posts on the Monroe voyagers mailing list, & altered states is in New Zealand so is just right for our miserable dollar.

http://www.inter-dimensions.net

http://www.altered-states.net/

Good journeys mate

Mobius

TheCountess · July 11, 2002, 00:18:18

Hi all ........ I'm new here.

I'm wondering if anyone here also posts into the usenet alt.out-of-body newsgroup?

Also ... what is the general perception here? The group that I come from is a mixed group. Some people believe that they actually leave their bodies during an OBE. Others believe that we don't leave our bodies because consciousness is not perceived in a bodily structure. We also have a group of skeptics that think that OBEs are an extention of lucid dreaming, or basically, all in the brain.

Just asking, and stepping in to say hello.

News:

New here ... with some questions