Grief and Loss: The five stages

[James S]

Yes, these forums do have a purpose, and these kind of arguments is not it.

To all,
I'm sorry if I came across as sounding angry - I suppose the bold print does that. I'm not angry though, I'm just tired of seeing this conversation, or variants of it,   repeated again and again, and so I am now taking steps to get us past all of this. This forum must be allowed to move on and the people here start focussing more on what is agreed upon and how to gain better understanding from that, rather than just talking about why we disagree with something.

The raising of issues regarding of lack of understanding, blaming, running away, the accusations and the lectures about responsibilities and boundaries, and the defenciveness, are old and tired and MUST stop. It's as simple as that. We've trodden a trench going around in this circle.

Spectral, you say that this forum is for asking help. Well, that's not it's main purpose.
The first and foremost function of this site is as a meeting place for like minded people, for the purposes of discussing ideas and sharing information. The PSD forum was introduced as a breakaway forum from the original OBE forums to discuss these subjects outside of the direct umbrella of the OBE forums. Helping to solve people's personal problems should be viewed as a benefit from this information, not the sole aim.

This forum is not a professional counseling service. The people here offering their opinions and experiences are not doing so as professional counselors. If the information given is of no benefit to the one reading it, it is up to them to look elsewhere for answers. They haven't paid good mone for the answers, and they aren't being forced to accept them.

The fact we are talking about DK is NOT that we are judging her, we are examining problems that are arising. Every person has to come to terms with the knowledge they read on the forums... it is no good blaming the writer for the inability to understand, or to attack the writer in prejudice, fear or especially ignorance of the facts.

The degradation that this forum has suffered as a result of this perpetuated cycle of pedantic lecturing and accusations will stop.

Now!

There's some more bold for you. It's not "angry" bold, but it is "I really mean it" bold.

James.

[Dark Knight]

Thank you, James, I've been looking for my starter thread for a while now...

I still come here for a reason, and it isn't for my own benefit anymore, I don't need help anymore, and no, it isn't beat you up either. Given that you probably would over react and not understand there is no point in trying.

quote:Guess who she gives the highest priority here? - That's right, herself.

No I am not, the highest priority goes to other. You still think I'm just talking about myself and not other people. I don't think you will ever see it as being other people.

Nita, I'm sorry, I'm gonna have to break my promise because you're too right. People don't want to believe it can happen to them ("not that we don't believe," give me a break, you think we're all being attacked by thought forms), and they will invest as much hate as they can to get rid of the sight of fear or perceived weakness or avoid responsiblity. You're not going to get past this, you're going to kill it at the first sign of it's head appearing, it'll keep coming up and coming up and coming up. Sam's right, denial isn't a river in Egypt.

And since people will always believe I'm talking about myself instead of others, (really don't want to listen to that message at all)...the Astralpulse is not one post. And the people that did support me are all but gone and for a darn good reason (who's seen Ninja Chipmunk and for how long). This place is the sum of it's posts, good and bad. And as of right now the sum is a negative number.

quote:So Dark knight, you didn't leave. It seems you decided to stay, but for what reason?

You really don't know, do you...and that has to be the saddest reason of all.

Hatemongers...

quote:You will choose a lesson and get a high off of the power you recieve, instead of getting a high off of people. You stay outside of creation and act as if you're not a part of it, then claim you are. Don't worry, I'm leaving, thank you.

You aren't going to be able to walk away from this forever. I'm going to drag the spotlight on this mentality. Challenging something doesn't make a person a victim, and guess what, challenging you and not taking the spot light off of you doesn't take your choices away. You still have them, you still have free will, there are still consequences, and you are still responsible for them.

Needing support occasionally isn't being a victim, it's being human.

You think you're defensive now...

I sent an email to Adrian requesting my membership be revoked that day. Metal Ice ran after me and brought me back, albeit several weeks later, and she stays away from this place unless she learns something new. Love that quote though.

[James S]

quote:Originally posted by Dark Knight
Nita, I'm sorry, I'm gonna have to break my promise because you're too right. People don't want to believe it can happen to them, and they will invest as much hate as they can to get rid of the sight of fear or perceived weakness or avoid responsiblity.


You really don't know, do you...and that has to be the saddest reason of all.

No I really don't know. You're posts have mostly been indicative of someone who is intent on preaching rather than understanding and contributing.

quote:....People don't want to believe it can happen to them, and they will invest as much hate as they can to get rid of the sight of fear or perceived weakness or avoid responsiblity.

THIS is what I do not want to see any more of.

These assumptions of yours that people here have avoidance issues has been repeated a few too many times. They are only that - assumptions.

Can you honestly say that you know about these issues better than anyone else here, and are therefore solely qualified to preach about them?

[James S]

So for the sake of trying to understand, and trying to get past this repetative point criticism that has been made many times, why are you here?

I'm not asking that in a sarcastic manner, but a purely curious one. So no I won't over-react and yes there is a poitn in trying, as long as I can see that there is a way of getting past this loop.

[Dark Knight]

I'm not going to turn this into an argument James. I have experience. You think you have to have the deliberate intent to be hateful for an action to produce something hateful...no you do not. You can intend one thing and produce something entirely different. You feel half the equation and don't feel the other half because you're too busy reacting.

I wrote my discertation on world peace in university and won first place. That isn't boasting I did it, any more thatn Mick or Spectral boasting about what they can do. It can be done.

You don't have to be a bad person to do something hateful, and that is what is happening here, you are hearing people calling you a bad person instead of listening to how your actions affect others, which is what they have been trying to tell you. You can't kill this argument, kick me off, someone else will bring it up.

[Mick]

quote:Originally posted by Dark Knight

I still come here for a reason, and it isn't for my own benefit anymore, I don't need help anymore, and no, it isn't beat you up either. Given that you probably would over react and not understand there is no point in trying.

Having had a number of non conformist experiences some time ago and when seeking information also came up against the sweeping statements of some when I was more interested in looking to understand in more detail the world about us thus I can understand some of your frustrations. The world is made of of many types of people and this is a fringe science (dare I use that word in this context ) The quote from Nita that you repeated covers this aspect to a degree for some peoples response and there are other viewpoints.
Rather than become too combative I think it is simpler and more productive to recognise this and to engage with those that help you to explore yours and other situations thereby adding to the knowledge base of experiences and perhaps even solutions, and then see how they stand up in the wider view and application. There will never be unilateral agreement because people experience or not from some very different perspectives and beliefs. But I also would mention that to seek solace with totally like minded people is also in my opinion not good as people can created some weird small mind environments with little effort Also it is good to be in a place such as this where theories and such are tested for resiliance and my particular favourite corroboration.

That is my two pence worth.

[James S]

Thank you Mick, that was a thoughtfull post.

Dark Knight,
I can kill this argument and I will. That might seem like a narrow minded thing to say, but the particular argument that you have been putting forward has been wandering around in a loop for too long now.

You're argument has been accepted by many. You should be happy with that. But now you are preaching the same points to those who are tired of hearing it. Nobody really disagrees with you, but many here disagree with how you are going about it.

The arguments and statements you repetedly make regarding responsibility and denial will end now. Your ongoing criticisms of those members who do not wish to see things your way will also end now. No more preaching, no more trying to teach us a lesson. Time to move on.

Either learn to partake in the discussions here with a reasonable ammount of courtesy, understanding and acceptance of the views of others, or leave this site. This is no more and no less than we ask of all members.

James.

[Mick]

quote:Originally posted by James S

Thank you Mick, that was a thoughtfull post.

The arguments and statements you repetedly make regarding responsibility and denial will end now. Your ongoing criticisms of those members who do not wish to see things your way will also end now. No more preaching, no more trying to teach us a lesson. Time to move on.

Your welcome  

I think that DK has been in a very dark place and while there she attempted to communicate her situation and fears, in some cases while doing so the reactions were not in her opinion helpful and I can sympathise with some of that. As she has established some respite I think she has also sought to address these 'slights' and set the record straight for her own benefit.

I too think that this process has become a little pervasive on her part but not helped by the badgering, semantic arguments etc that has developed on all sides of the argument. If we step back and consider this as a patient in recovery learning to adjust to the new situation and accomodate what has taken place in their lives then perhaps the whole dialog would be treated differently. I am not excusing DKs persistence in establishing her 'valid' point of view but I think it is worth considering what to do next time someone who finds themselves extremely troubled turns up and a similar situation is encountered. For me in such times there comes a time to all stand back and reflect but how we get to push the pause button is perhaps something for the moderators, that is if what I am saying has any consensus

Another 2 pence worth making 4 pence today

[kiauma]

Well said Mick, though I think the real issue is really even simpler.

People have bent over backwards to attend to DK's needs, which I don't have a problem with.  I can be as empathic as the next AP patron.  Everyone has needs, and the acceptance and accomadation, as you say, of those needs, especially of those in pain, should be a priority.

There comes a point, however, where a person's needs can degenerate into gratuitous neediness, which nobody should feel forced to abide.

Having stated my case, I now leave it to everyone's individual discernment to mark their own boundaries.

I bid you all peace.

[SpectralDragon]

quote:Originally posted by James S

Either learn to partake in the discussions here with a reasonable ammount of courtesy, understanding and acceptance of the views of others, or leave this site. This is no more and no less than we ask of all members.

James.

I think all of us, including yourself, need to practice this.

[kiauma]

Noted.

[kiauma]

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0925/p15s01-lire.htm

[James S]

quote:Originally posted by SpectralDragon
I think all of us, including yourself, need to practice this.

Granted [:I]

Unfortunately, as you may have experienced yourself, I am in the somewhat more unenviable position of being the 'law enforcement' and have to bring about a few reforms as requested by 'The Boss' to help smooth out a forum that is growing exponentially. Sometimes this has to be done with a little less love and a little more force.

Mick, you are 100% correct!
My initial "back down" demand has been directed at Dark Knight as being the instigator of many of these posts and situations, however if she heeds this directive, it is also reasonable for me to expect that both camps will lower weapons and play nicely from now on.

If I am to expect DK to treat others here with respect, I will also expect her to be treated with that same respect. This is only fair.

Regards,
James.

[SpectralDragon]

edited out. -SD

[James S]

Jessica,

As I just mentioned, if I'm to expect DK to be respectful of others, I expect others to be respectful of her.

This is as good a time as any for this to start happening, and for the kind of posts like the last two you've just made to stop.

Yes the forums have become negative, but it will take all members to turn that around. Please help this happen by not making any more posts that have no purpose other than to pull someone down.

Also know that any kind of personal attack will not be tolerated. DO NOT continue in this way.

James.

[SpectralDragon]

quote:Originally posted by James S

Jessica,

As I just mentioned, if I'm to expect DK to be respectful of others, I expect others to be respectful of her.

This is as good a time as any for this to start happening, and for the kind of posts like the one you've just made to stop.

Yes the forums have become negative, but it will take all members to turn that around. Please help this happen by not making any more posts that have no purpose other than to pull someone down.

James.

Why are you using DK as a prime example? I don't think that is correct.

[rhinegirl]

ok. I deleted both my utterances.

Jessica

quote:Originally posted by James S

Jessica,

As I just mentioned, if I'm to expect DK to be respectful of others, I expect others to be respectful of her.

This is as good a time as any for this to start happening, and for the kind of posts like the last two you've just made to stop.

Yes the forums have become negative, but it will take all members to turn that around. Please help this happen by not making any more posts that have no purpose other than to pull someone down.

Also know that any kind of personal attack will not be tolerated. DO NOT continue in this way.

James.

[James S]

Thankyou Jessica,

I appreciate it. []

Take care,
James.

[Dark Knight]

My attacks started just as I was getting ready to implement, and I have still tried to implement under attack.


I wrote a lot, wrote to people, celebrities, organizations specifically like Southern Poverty Law Center  

quote:http://splcenter.org/

, trying to supply a different perspective on race relations. Whether anybody got or did anything with them is beyond me. But that was my sweat, my money, my effort, to try, which is what more than most people do in a lifetime.

[James S]

DK,
Rhinegirl has retracted her comments.

You're actions were indeed admirable. Be at peace with the fact that you tried your best to do what you knew was the right thing. You should not feel like you have to justify yourself.  

James.

[SpectralDragon]

I can appreciate your will to stop these arguments James, but using a single person as a scapegoat is wrong.

[James S]

I've just edited my last post so that it hopefully says a little more clearly what I mean. It was an attempt to try and diffuse any more hostility, in what I hoped was a more positive and supportive manner.

Noone is being singled out as a scapegoat here. Anyone who tries to pull down any other member in a defencive reactional manner will be delt with by the moderators accordingly.

But if members are going to get their noses out of joint over every little comment someone else makes, then this forum is not the place for them to be. Simple as that! Nobody should have to feel like they need to word things so carefully so as not to upset the feelings of someone they think might explode at any minute. People are avoiding some of the forums here for fear of being hit by the shrapnel of exploding egos. It's gotten stupid, and it has to stop.

This is not aimed at any one person Spectral. I don't hold grudges, and I don't seek to persecute anyone. Please get past that thought. It's aimed at ANYONE who comes on to these forums with their minds so completely shielded by their egos that they block out any possibility that there might be another way to look at something.

James.

[SpectralDragon]

quote:Originally posted by James S

I've just edited my last post so that it hopefully says a little more clearly what I mean. It was an attempt to try and diffuse any more hostility, in what I hoped was a more positive and supportive manner.

Noone is being singled out as a scapegoat here. Anyone who tries to pull down any other member in a defencive reactional manner will be delt with by the moderators accordingly.

But if members are going to get their noses out of joint over every little comment someone else makes, then this forum is not the place for them to be. Simple as that! Nobody should have to feel like they need to word things so carefully so as not to upset the feelings of someone they think might explode at any minute. People are avoiding some of the forums here for fear of being hit by the shrapnel of exploding egos. It's gotten stupid, and it has to stop.

This is not aimed at any one person Spectral. I don't hold grudges, and I don't seek to persecute anyone. Please get past that thought. It's aimed at ANYONE who comes on to these forums with their minds so completely shielded by their egos that they block out any possibility that there might be another way to look at something.

James.

Perhaps you were not trying to do so, but you were, and I appreciate you pulling that part out.

[Dark Knight]

There is nothing new about this, except to some of the young pups out there that have never studied college philosophy or psychology...this is what everyone goes through when experinecing a loss, and psychic attack is a form of loss, as is rape, murder, suicide...

The Five stages Of Grief and Loss:

1. Shock and Denial
2. Trying to Bargain
3. Anger and Guilt
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

Quoted:

"What is important for an individual sustaining a loss...is that all of these stages must be passed through successfully before he or she can re-establish a totally healthy emotional and spiritual balance.

...If a person merely represses all feelings--all desires of wishing things could be different, all anger, guilt, or feelings of depression--these inevitably seem to surface in other ways. Sometimes the "symptoms" of these repressed feelings surface in an "unexplained" loss of appetite, or in ulcers, or other physical illnesses--or in psychological difficulties such as an extremely low self esteem or a great reluctance or fear of entering new relationships or being able to maintain them."

-----------Loving, by Michael McCarty--------------------------------

This is what gets repressed and blocked when you call the stages of recovery "a negative attitude." We're human, we need to feel, not be repressed, blocked and stopped by people who don't want to move through anything hurtfull. It doesn't end suffering, it prolongs it and makes it worse. None of our emotions are bad or negative, and healing takes time (or never if you can't find something positive in your emotions).