What is all this new age crap?

[Patty]

Hi Atlas!

I haven't seen anyone here say that AP is real 'due to it's extreme vividness.'  Maybe you saw that on another site?

I HAVE seen lots of people intuitively recognize the experience as distinct from other types of consciousness. Those same people often ask what the heck was THAT? in response to some part of the experience.

I think we all recognize that it would be hard to identify a five digit number. What is your point here?

But this does not indicate one way or the other whether these experiences represent anything 'real.'  It is entirely possible that there is multiple input going on in the brain during this experience - some of it may be 'dream' input and some of it may be 'physical world'  input and I'm trying to oversimplify things for the sake of the conversation.

In short, no one argues that OBE's are exact replicas of the physical world. Yet critics always hold this as a test that is meant to somehow disprove them altogether.

I could go on and on but I am sure you have had this conversation before?

(incidentally, in almost every projection I try to look for a blindly placed object that I can later verify. It doesn't prove the experience, rather, it illustrates that experiencers hold skepticism about the experience.  It also is a good indicator that the experiences are truly distinct and recognizable, not 'just dreams' - i.e. I never try to 'validate' my dreams in this manner.)

Patty

[Mobius]

Hello all

The thing about the "conscious projection", from what I have experienced & read, is that...............damn it's hard. From everything I've read even the most experienced has a very brief "blackout" period upon trying to "consciously project". This has been a problem for me also.

The bit I'm talking about is when you are entirely aware of your body & the signals that you are about to project are strong, you either float, roll or fall out of your body ( that bit alone is hard enough to keep control of & not resist going back to the body) then there is like a brief second or two, where the picture seems to go black, nothing! & then you emerge into either the real time zone or an astral level, depending on what you were focusing on.

Then all of a sudden you are in a body that does things your physical body has never felt before & the mind grapples with what should be real & make sense to a physical body, this is a real problem & hard to get over once on the astral. You know you can fly, but your physical memories tells you that you will fall & hurt yourself, you know you can go anywhere in a thought, but choose to walk or take transport, you know you can go through walls, but the temptation is still to go around them.

Many experienced projectors feel they have projected to a particular place, but on arrival, nothing but blackness,giving them the impression of failure, only to have their experience validated through another source later on e.g

Muldoon & Dr Scott Rogo both reported cases where the projector went to a particular place on the physical, but reported nothing, only to later ask the persons they were trying to project to if anything happened. In both cases the unaware party saw an apparition or ghostly form in their bedrooms & were thouroughly freaked out. This sounds like a problem with the transmission of info somehow or like Robert says in AD, shadow memory recall problems.

There is so much to do & so much to learn there is enough for everyone to do experiments on, just not many volunteers willing to co-operate & not be freaked out, plus you need to live reasonably close to experiment productively enough.

Whoops, I'm late for work, cya's

Mobius

[James S]

I feel a little guilty here that I have helped perpetuate a tangent on "scientific proof". Through the course of this post I've taken in many viewpoints and can see now that this is so very minor to those here who are personally familiar with OBEs.

I'ts funny how I've seemed to come accross as skeptical. I'd say I'm more analytical. I've had first hand experience with a few aspects of the supernatural world and have no problems accepting them, in fact my belief in the higher planes/dimensions/(insert prefered terminology here...) tends to lead me to seek them. I guess I can tend to overanalyse things to form a perspective I'm comfortable with. Maybey that is being skeptical... oh well, enough about me...

What seems to me a fairly important factor her is that people may be trying to find consistant proof in something that is highly varied and subjective. If we were to talk about someones physical eyesight  it would be easy to prove. Blue is blue, square is square - there are constants and points of reference everywhere.

But in the case of OBEs maybey, as everyone thinks differently, due to their personalities, so their astral body might also see things differently. Your seeing something as a result of separating from the physical world. Maybey known constants no longer apply. Many people report seeing similar etheric beings, but how can you prove to someone else what you saw, when they might have little basis for comparison. I've been looking back through other  posts under this topic and it seems nobody really doubts what they saw, their just not always sure what they saw.

Patty, Tisha, Frank... - Have I kind of got the gist of it here, or am I being overanalytical again?

It seems to me an OBE is something to be treasured, as a wonderful personal experience. Because of this we like to share it with our friends. Tom's right in what he said earlier - experiencing something should be proof enough. If others are happy to have you share this with them...good. But if they wont accept it without you proving it - they lose out, because they miss out on the joy that you feel in sharing with them in the experience.

James S
(Fate amenable to change)

[Atlas]

Hi Patty

>>I haven't seen anyone here say that AP is real 'due to it's extreme vividness.' Maybe you saw that on another site? <<

I didn't mean that AP was DUE to its extreme vividness, it's that when I have asked some people "How do you KNOW you have actually left your body and this isn't in your mind?" The answer I usually get is something like "it was just so vivid! It FELT so real!" and what I'm saying is that is not proof that you have actually "gone" anywhere. In my dreams I feel like I'm flying by golly, but I"m not actually.

>>I HAVE seen lots of people intuitively recognize the experience as distinct from other types of consciousness.<<

Maybe it is. But intuition isn't proof, or science. Intuition might lead someone down a particular path to proving or testing something, but intuition itself is not any kind of objective test. Having a hunch that the moon is made of cheese doesn't mean it is.

>>I think we all recognize that it would be hard to identify a five digit number. What is your point here?

Why is this hard? What kind of identification test wouldn't be hard, and yet not easy to guess? I don't care what it is. A series of 6 basic shapes? Guess a card out of a deck? I don't care. The point is that if one can project into the real-time zone, like RB suggests, which is a near-exact replica, then it should be possible for someone to come here to my house or neighborhood and do an identification test of some sort.

>>It is entirely possible that there is multiple input going on in the brain during this experience - some of it may be 'dream' input and some of it may be 'physical world' input and I'm trying to oversimplify things for the sake of the conversation.

In short, no one argues that OBE's are exact replicas of the physical world. Yet critics always hold this as a test that is meant to somehow disprove them altogether.<<

I thought in Astral Dynamics RB said that the realtime zone is close enough to the physical to be considered a mirror almost?

I'm not trying to say the seeminly out of body experience isn't REAL. I'm taking issue with what the experience actually IS. Just like I don't argue that american indians of the past saw and felt the sun, but I don't agree that it is a god. Do you see what I"m saying? I don't think there is any evidence, besides a few anecdotal reports here and there, to prove that anyone has actually left or departed or detached from their body in any way, even in any kind of "double" body.

Like I said, if there exists some real=time zone which mirrors the physical, and someone could project into it, where is Osama? Where are a number of people who are at large, if the government is using this and it is real? What is behind that door in the shaft of the great pyramid? These questions should be answerable.

And people usually pounce on the fact that I haven't had a true-blue OBE, but like i said, I'm not questioning the experience itself. The tests I'm seeking would be the exact same kind I would do to prove to myself that I have actually LEFT my body in some manner, and not just having an extremely vivid lucid dream.

Thanks for the post.

Atlas

[Patty]

Hi James,

Regarding your ideas - I think each of us is developing our ideas as best fits us. Your ideas are as valid as anyone else's.  I hold out for proof, others do not. In my opinion we'll all make do with whatever we 'get.'

Hi Atlas,

quote:when I have asked some people "How do you KNOW you have actually left your body and this isn't in your mind?" The answer I usually get is something like "it was just so vivid! It FELT so real!"

Can you reference this?  It sounds like the sort of thing one might hear now and then, but might not actually reflect the views of the majority. It certainly would be an inflammatory statement to a skeptic, so perhaps the comment pushed your button?   (My personal response to your question would be that I DON'T know that I have left my body. But that far more often than not when I try to identify something that is blindly placed, I succeed; yet remain unconvinced that anything objectively exterior is happening.)  

quote:..... intuition isn't proof, or science. Intuition might lead someone down a particular path to proving or testing something, but intuition itself is not any kind of objective test. Having a hunch that the moon is made of cheese doesn't mean it is.

My point was that a person recognizes the experience. If you had an experience where you felt like "oh my god, I'm walking around without a body" you would recognize it as a typical astral projection. Non-experiencers occasionally claim that AP's are 'just dreams.'  (Off hand I can't reference this! heh heh)  AP's may certainly be entirely internal, but they are clearly distinct from typical dreams. They can be confusing, but they are recognizable.  My point was not that recognition of the state is any sort of proof that the consciousness is physically separated from the body.

quote:>>I think we all recognize that it would be hard to identify a five digit number. What is your point here?

Why is this hard? What kind of identification test wouldn't be hard, and yet not easy to guess? I don't care what it is. A series of 6 basic shapes? Guess a card out of a deck? I don't care. The point is that if one can project into the real-time zone, like RB suggests, which is a near-exact replica, then it should be possible for someone to come here to my house or neighborhood and do an identification test of some sort.

This is where lack of experience is dictating your expectations.  Of the 30 - 50 experiences I have had over the last few years, none have lasted more than a minute or two. Significant time was spent in each simply getting my bearings. Most importantly, there were obvious distortions from physicality in ALL of them. Every one.  Maybe fifty percent of the 'information' made no sense at all. And yet in the roughly ten that I tried to verify, in every case I successfully identified at least some part of the target that was set.

Now think about that. Don't jump in with a test yet, just keep listening for a minute.  Distortion of what we agree is the physical world and yet some part of the target was successfully identified.  You can't find Osama with that. You can't identify a five digit number with that. You might be able to tell if a friend chose to wear blue or red that day, or some such, but it might be obscured by all sorts of nonsensical 'noise' in the experience.

If these experiences are anything like the norm --- we can not ask "Where is Osama bin Laden" with them.  They simply aren't controllable enough, detailed enough, or noise-less enough. But we can ask "what can we learn about human consciousness" with these experiences.  (And it could be an incredible leap in understanding.)  I believe we should be able to gather good evidence as to whether AP represents a state away from the body or not. The experiments do not have to have astronomical odds in order to do this. They can have 1:2 odds, provided enough trials are run.

quote:I thought in Astral Dynamics RB said that the realtime zone is close enough to the physical to be considered a mirror almost?

I have read AD but not closely enough to see what is and isn't thought to be concrete in the nearest hypothetical real time zone.  Recently on an art bell interview, RB discussed what would be necessary to prove that OBE represents something outside the body. He mentioned something like having the projector sleeping in a room the size of a warehouse (to provide an empty space perhaps?) and being asked to identify something roughly the size of a wall.  In other words, a hell of a big target surrounded by empty space. So regardless of whether the real time zone mirrors the physical world or not - RB does not appear to think that the sorts of experiments you suggest are tenable. In my limited experience I would agree, though I am most certainly only an unconvinced novice.  I have no idea what generates all the random images seen while projecting. Many thoughts exist on this - that it might be one's dream mind, or emotions, or the thoughts of those nearby, or energy signatures (not sure what those are supposed to be), ........

quote:I'm not trying to say the seeminly out of body experience isn't REAL. I'm taking issue with what the experience actually IS.

I also want very desperately to know what is the underlying basis for these experiences.  This is why I spend virtually all my time while projecting, trying to get something to verify it. Instead of looking for the akashic records or some such thing. I think some folks might not understand my fixation with this point, but it sounds like you do.

Thank you for your time, we should really be doing this over a beer somewhere.

Patty

[ralphm]

Let me remind everyone that the so called new age crap has been around a long time- shamanism, hinduism, tibetian buddhism, these people knew that we are much more than the physical. Materialism is the new kid on the block. These old beliefs aren't scientific enough for you-read some quantum mechanics and see what reality is like.

[junkie]

hi patty,

RB didn't say he just was able to identify an object as large as a wall, only that it would be helpful to place the object BEHIND a wall, so as not to cause reality fluctuations, which are likely to happen when you pass through solid matter.

[Frank]

Hi Atlas, good to hear from you again. I'm still working on trying to get the necessary high degree of conscious control in order to project to someplace in particular. Mobius touched on how difficult it is a few posts ago on this thread.

I have learnt a LOT the past couple of months especially after becoming enthralled by Monroe's concept of "phasing in" to the Astral. Mobius, in his post, talks about blackouts. Well, that's basically what I have been struggling to overcome.

I found that by trying to copy Monroe's work I am now projecting with the minimum of reality fluctuations and blackout times but I *still* cannot yet fathom how to project to a place in particular in the RT zone.

James S:

You say, "What seems to me a fairly important factor here is that people may be trying to find consistant proof in something that is highly varied and subjective."

If I may point out, the Astral realms are as stable as the Physical (perhaps even more so). They appear highly varied and subjective because of the limitations of our mental faculties in trying to comprehend what is going on.

For example, when we get sceptical on the Physical we have the strong tendency to say, "I'll believe it when I see it"
 
Okay, so you project within the Astral and, not realising the ground rules, you release all kinds of emotions that instantly create and continue to fuel the circumstances that surround you. Your conscious awareness can see what surrounds you so it believes that what it is seeing is real.

Big problem is, though, your mental faculties will react to these circumstances in exactly the same way as it would do on the Physical.

That's why it is ever so easy to get caught in a loop where you create the initial circumstances that surround you; then you react to these circumstances, thus perpetuating the circumstances; then you react to these circumstances, thus perpetuating the circumstances.................

Learning to hold precisely the right kind of mental state is rather difficult and takes lots of practice. Well, that's how it seems with most people, myself included.

Yours,
Frank    



   

[James S]

Frank,  what you said was what I think I was trying to say, you just phrased it a lot better. It makes more sense.

As to perpetuating circumstances, I guess holding the right mental state is just as important in everyday life as well.

thanks for your input.


James S
(Fate amenable to change)

[amed_h]

You knew about your dog's death before anyone told you, and you still claim that there is a rational explanation for this occurence?  Good luck.

Why doesn't more of the 5 billion people in the world know about ESP or clairvoyance or obe/astral projection?  Because 95% of this world is so caught up in materialism that they don't even experience these things.  That is what is wrong with the world today.

[Tom]

The world population hit 6 billion a couple years ago.

It is getting harder to be completely ignorant these days, now that communication and travel around the world are getting easier. Unfortunately, though, the same internet which I had expected to see remove ignorance completely is also in use to spread it around.

[BD]

Originally posted by Ashfo:
Firstly, BD, I think you misinterpreted me.. I was quoting someone else... I strongly believe in the paranormal/spiritual etc.

There is a way of recognizing something as "true" in the scientific world without having the same results appear in a test with all the variables constant. It's called the"scientific, systematic observation of a phenomenon". For example, we accept that lightning and thunder are natural occurences. But we cannot duplicate them in a controlled environment. Using this approach is the only way to prove - or disprove - many phenomena. All your talk about "measuring" things to attain if they are real or not displays your ingrained belief in traditional science.



Hello Ashfo!  This wasn't me,... that you're answering here!  I only posted a link to some "scientific" evidence of proof.  But I know these forums can sometimes get a bit confusing,...eh?    S'okay!  Have a good one!

BD

[Patty]

Frank -

quote:
If I may point out, the Astral realms are as stable as the Physical (perhaps even more so). They appear highly varied and subjective because of the limitations of our mental faculties in trying to comprehend what is going on.

For example, when we get sceptical on the Physical we have the strong tendency to say, "I'll believe it when I see it"

Okay, so you project within the Astral and, not realising the ground rules, you release all kinds of emotions that instantly create and continue to fuel the circumstances that surround you. Your conscious awareness can see what surrounds you so it believes that what it is seeing is real.

Big problem is, though, your mental faculties will react to these circumstances in exactly the same way as it would do on the Physical.

That's why it is ever so easy to get caught in a loop where you create the initial circumstances that surround you; then you react to these circumstances, thus perpetuating the circumstances; then you react to these circumstances, thus perpetuating the circumstances.................

Are you saying that what we see in the astral realms is not stable, but that the conditions that create them are?

I'm trying to understand how your example reflects a stable environment ---- have I got it?

Junkie - thanks for the correction - how does the wall prevent fluctuations? my recollection is that going through a wall creates fluctuations so if anything I would think you wouldn't want one around - ?

Patty

[Atlas]

>>Why doesn't more of the 5 billion people in the world know about ESP or clairvoyance or obe/astral projection? Because 95% of this world is so caught up in materialism that they don't even experience these things. That is what is wrong with the world today.<<

I know. It's terrible that not everyone is as smart and as spiritually advanced as you, isn't it?


Atlas

[Patty]

I am still hoping for a well thought out response. These kinds of discussion can really lead to productive thinking on both sides. More skepticism for the overly credulous, and more consideration for the overly skeptical.

But it requires patience, time, and open discussion.

Patty

[Tisha]

I've ignored this thread for awhile due to the "scientific proof" tangent . . . I've read it all before. . . a lot of good points about things like "belief" and "perception" and such . . . but also a stubborn persistence on the part of some that there actually is "reality" and "unreality," and that if something cannot be scientifically proven it is not real. SIGH.  I'm so over that . . . and I feel so much better now.  

I'm not posting this in a hoity-toity way.  It's just that if you recall from my earlier post, the real/unreal argument is kind of irrelevant.  Reality is a funny thing.  Perception is a funny thing.  The more cosmic you get, the LESS clear it gets and the MORE clear it gets . . . both at the same time.

The "enlightened" ones treat their waking existence as a dream . . . because it is all the same to them.  They never "sleep."  Their astral projections are as "real" as you are reading this.  Heaven knows I'm not THERE yet!  But don't you think it would be nice to get to that place? You won't get to that place by working at tomorrow's lottery numbers or dragging yourself into the dust with Osama. You will get there with love, surrender, peace, meditation, all the things those mystics were/are talking about.

Some "lightbulb moments" that brought me peace (and more OBEs), I will share with you:

Everything is happening NOW.  That we experience time/space is a Godsend (literally) because we couldn't handle the REAL reality if we took it all in at once!  So phenomena like time-travel and future-seeing are only natural, once you get in touch with the NOW.

We are One.  We only seem separate in our little fractured minds.  So, phenomena like psychic communication should only be expected once you get in touch with the ONE.

There is a holograph image of the entire universe (boundless and infinite?) inside of your soul.  So you can go anywhere without leaving. Actually, if you really think about it, there is nowhere else to go.  

Knowing the above it is easier to accept that we are little points of consciousness that can move ANYWHERE/ANYWHEN IN THE UNIVERSE at will, once we figure it out.  

Frank and Patty's descriptions about how hard it is to get your bearings during an OBE when your emotions/expectations get in the way resonate with me pretty well . . . it's kind of like "waking" life, yes?  Your emotions/expectations color your waking life too . . "as above, so below."

tisha

[junkie]

hi patty,

no, it's supposed to be a "freestanding" wall, so you can walk around it when OBE.

[Patty]

(((Tisha)))

That's beautiful.  You know, I feel like we're at the same football game - and I'm on the field and you're a cheerleader. Or you're in section G and I'm in the band. Or I'm in the locker room and you're in the reporter's box.

Great game, eh?  I am in no rush to get over the proof thing. I know that it is a very valuable stage of my personal development. And where you are looks great too. Maybe I'll come over there and hang out somewhere down the road.


XOXOX

Patty

[Mobius]

Hey Frank

After reading your last post another penny dropped for me or another piece to the puzzle. I've seen you mention the "phasing in" bit that Monroe often mentions, but I never entirely understood it & just put it down to personal descriptions or terminology to something I have allready experienced or will experience soon enough, but havn't got my own descriptive term to identify the actual process.

When I wrote about the blackouts I was thinking of the description that I have read in a few other books & experience myself, but now that I think about it I can see what you were/are trying to get your head around with phasing. Monroe used the term a fair bit, but I never put 2 & 2 together, so thanks for clearing that up for me, gives me a different spin to it now.

I recorded an OBE the other night before I went to sleep & it was most confusing as I was trying so hard just to keep focus on what it was that I wanted to do & maintain control so that I could record every detail along the way.  Basically I was trying to go to an upper astral level/ plane & I wanted to start from the real time zone, so I'll summarize the OBE I recorded to better explain.

"SKYSCRAPER"
Date: 10/ 7/ 02
Time: 22: 35 - 23:10
Brief description: Huge tower, elevator, 17th floor, 80th floor, panoramic views of a city & a nearby park.
Location: Started from bedroom,unidentified city, unidentified building, 17th floor, 80th floor.
Details: Usual relaxation process, felt myself drop down briefly then float up, blackout briefly or no picture or vision & then land at the end of my bed. Think to myself, I wish to go to an upper astral level, I look up & then the blackout again or no picture & I emerge inside an elevator with vision.

Nice modern looking elevator with LED display of floor levels, buttons black with red ring of light around the outside, I look at the numbers & see from basement to the 80th floor. For some reason I get a feeling about the 17th floor, so I push the button, I feel a brief rising but then the blackout again, no picture & then I get vision back & the doors open & I get out on the 17th floor.

Nothing remarkable about this floor, looks like a modern office & there is some people at desks working, one looks up at me & I feel he can see me, but it looks more like he was daydreaming. I decide there is nothing here for me to see & I go back to the elevator, it opens, I walk in & push the button to go to the 80th floor.

Again, the blackout briefly & then I get the picture back & the doors open onto the 80th floor. I get out & see an incredible expansive city that I have never seen before. I seem to be on an observatory level of the building & glass windows are on all sides, but I don't see any of those binoculars or telescopes you usually see in observatories, also the level is empty but for me. I am confused at where I am so decide to go back to my body, the blackout happens again & I sit up in bed & write it down.

So Frank, is the period where I move from one scene to another what Monroe means by phasing in? It's frustrating because it's so hard to tell what is happening in those moments of blackouts or if I'm right the phasing in period.

Good journeys all

Mobius

[Atlas]

Hi Tisha

>>I've ignored this thread for awhile due to the "scientific proof" tangent . . . I've read it all before. . . a lot of good points about things like "belief" and "perception" and such . . . but also a stubborn persistence on the part of some that there actually is "reality" and "unreality,"<<

What do you mean that it is "stubborn persistance" that there is a reality and an unreality? Or you saying there is no such thing?

>>and that if something cannot be scientifically proven it is not real. SIGH. I'm so over that . . . and I feel so much better now.<<

Why are you over it? Because it wasn't giving you the kind of verification you wanted? I'm not sure anyone here was arguing that the experience of OB is not real, just about what the nature of the experience actually is.

>>Reality is a funny thing. Perception is a funny thing. The more cosmic you get, the LESS clear it gets and the MORE clear it gets . . . both at the same time<<

Can you elaborate a little bit?

>>You won't get to that place by working at tomorrow's lottery numbers or dragging yourself into the dust with Osama<<

I don't know...I think it would be very "spiritually rewarding" to win 60 million and give it all to charities. There is a "reality" where there are starving children in desperate need of food. 60 million could go a long way towards helping them out, I don't see what's so non-spiritual about that.

>>So phenomena like time-travel and future-seeing are only natural, once you get in touch with the NOW.<<

How does understanding that we live in the present make time travel possible?

>>Knowing the above <<

Do you have faith in the above, or do you KNOW it? If you do know it, how did you come to know it?

Just curious

Atlas

[aphexcoil]

To everyone,

My original intent was to separate fact from fiction with respect to OBEs.  Experiences in life can be objective and subjective.  I will give an example of each:

SUBJECTIVE Experience:

A room is 60 degrees F.  Someone comes in from a winter storm and says, "phew, this room is nice and warm!"  Another person comes into this room from a hot summer day and says, "phew, this room is nice and cool!"  Well, which is it?

Whatever the room "feels" like is from perception of past experience.  In other words, if you are cold, the room will feel warm and vice-versa.  Each experience is a correct one given the circumstances for each person.

OBJECTIVE Experience:

Objectivity is based on absolutes.  If a scientist were asked to record the temperature of the room, he would state that it is 60 F.  If asked if the room was cold or hot, he could only state what was absolute -- the temperature of the room.  

Most things in our life, if not nearly all things, are subjective experiences.  Pleasure feels much more powerful when it follows pain.  We as humans live our lives in variations of absolutes that cannot be quantitative.  In other words, we cannot put a specific measurement on subjective experiences.  If I asked you, "How happy do you feel right now," you could state you are very happy or somewhat happy.  If I pressed for an exact measurement, you could not give me one because it is subjective.

We as people are merely a collection of our past experiences -- some of these experiences happened at extremely young ages and helped to shape us in ways we cannot fully comprehend.  We are, in essence, our experiences.  Our memories, passions, goals, dreams and commitments are based on past experiences that have shaped our personality.

This debate about "god / afterlife / meaning of life" has dragged on since the beginning of time -- yet, we are no closer today to solving these ultimate questions than we were back then.  

I think it is important for humans to embrace religion and other beliefs to help them get through life.  If life is merely just a random fluke where no meaning exists in our life, I think people would be heart-broken.  People want to believe in a greater power -- people want to believe in the eternal -- most importantly, people want to believe in purpose and meaning to their life.

However, at the same time, one cannot ignore the evil that lurks in human nature.  Take for instance the five year old girl who was kidnapped, raped and killed.  What kind of a person does this?  Does he have a soul?  We would like to hate him because he represents the darker aspects of our own humanity.  However, do not be mistaken that his traits do not exist within all of us at a core level.  I'm sure everyone on this board has, at one time or another, come close to a breaking point from hatred, anger, rejection or depression.  

What sets us apart from people like him is that we temper our emotions with the collective wisdom we accumulate from experience.  I have always been an idealist and I always try to view the positive aspects of humanity.  If I see a homeless man, I can only help but to stop and imagine what it must be to live his life.  When September 11'th occurred, I couldn't help but to stop and think what it must have been like to stand at the ledge of the window with my back on fire and no other alternative but to jump.  

I have meant many challenges in my own life and, even at the age of 25, I could have never dreamed as a kid how difficult life can be.  As an adult we are allotted freedoms that we don't enjoy as a kid, but with those freedoms come immense responsibilities.  I have learned that, even in relationships, everything comes down to experiences, instincts and patience.  Just recently I broke up with someone that I really loved and that tore me apart inside.  However, that pain only helps me grow as a person and with that pain, I will become a stronger individual in new relationships.

I do not deny that their are things in this reality that may go beyond our science.  This may just be from the shortcomings of our present science or the fact that these things exist outside of logic.  It would be illogical to necessarily assume that the physical universe must operate on constant laws, even though we are taught that in physics.

Now, ahem ...  Getting back to OBEs.  I have had many experiences with OBEs.  I don't talk to most people about it because, in this culture, many people who speak of these things would not be taken seriously or possibly considered a freak.  Worse, they may be considered emotionally unstable or suffering from a mental condition.  That is why I choose to keep my experiences to myself and those closest to me.  

In all my experiences, I have never had any *proof* (in the normal sense of the word) that my experiences were real.  When I say "real," I think it is necessary to define real.  Real, as in this reality, is something that is verifiable by more than one person.  If I spray paint a wall and leave, you can later come by and see the writing on the wall.  Likewise, if I were to have an OBE and if I were also to consider it a *real* experience, I would argue that it must be verifiable in some way -- hence it was all just a dream.  

Many will say, "well I felt myself move around!"  In a lucid dream, you can vividly have all five senses working.  This doesn't constitute *proof*.  Now, if I were to "project," go down the street and read a license tag and then wake up and be able to verify this information, it would definitely lend some credence to my experience.

However, I have never heard or read of any OBE that signified that they were a true projection of the "soul" from the body.  And, to that regard, just what is the "soul."  Do any of you believe that the "soul" is eternal?  How do you account for the millions of new people each day?  Do these souls just get generated from somewhere else?  If souls are eternal, would they even have a beginning?  

The prospect of life meaning nothing and just being a long and drawn-out affair is not a "romantic philosophy."  This is most likely the reason why over 90% of the world is religious -- religion seems to be an innate human characteristic.  It doesn't matter who or what you believe, so long as you have some view of something greater than the "here and now."  

I've read many arguments from reputable sources in science journals that have shown that evolution is a straight-forth process and that we are merely animals.  Anyone who owns a dog or a cat understands they are capable of love and emotion, and basic intelligence.  They can be trained, just as humans are from past experiences.  Why are we so special when compared to every other living thing in this universe?  

We cannot delude ourselves, yet the need to seek out meaning is also very powerful and overwhelming.  I have seen 50% of everything in my life point to "this is just what it is" and the other half suggesting that there is something more.  I constantly find my logic pitted against my faith and emotions, and my idealism to want to accept a greater purpose.  

I have rambled on long enough.  Thanks for sharing everyone!

Jason

[Tisha]

Atlas, I'll try.  I wasn't going to try, because (this is a quote from somewhere) "most leave through the door they came in."  Meaning, why should I try to change you - - - you are where you are, psychically, for a good reason, and I could write ANYTHING here and it wouldn't change your opinion.

But you asked questions, so I'll try to respond.

Q.  " What do you mean that it is "stubborn persistance" that there is a reality and an unreality? Or you saying there is no such thing?"

A.  Yup, that's kind of what I'm saying.  We have a "consensus reality," i.e., some norms we generally agree to so as to operate effectively together in time/space - - - but only generally, because there is obviously plenty to fight over, just read the news.  For instance, when I say black, you THINK you know what I mean.  You might be wrong.  But it's good enough to get us through the day.

However, REAL "reality" is . . . well, it's quite "unreal." (HM, a contradiction in terms? Why, yes!)  And unreality is real.  Anything you can conceive of is real, is happening, is now. Reality is unbelievably, mindblowingly subjective.

For instance, you think you are solid.  You think you are mostly water, because that what the teachers told you in school.  But you are not.  You are mostly dead space.  Whoop!  Who knew?  It's not that the teachers were lying.  They just didn't know how much dead space existed between the atoms that make up so-called solid matter.  Once the human community fully understands and internalizes its inherent spaciness it will start interacting with the world a little differently . . . with different ideas about what is possible.  CONSENSUS REALITY SHIFT!!! Who knows what will come of it?

Q. " Why are you over it? Because it wasn't giving you the kind of verification you wanted? I'm not sure anyone here was arguing that the experience of OB is not real, just about what the nature of the experience actually is."

A.  Some of you might be surprised by this, but I'm a relative newcomer to this forum and the whole OBE scene, so I must confess that my "gotta prove it" phase was short lived.  And I must confess that my boyfriend in Virginia has a playing card on his nightstand, just in case I should decide to visit.  But you know what?  When I launch into the astral, my mind is so preoccupied with spiritual learning that "cards" and "proof" and "science" don't seem to enter into the equation ( I always seem to get a LOT more than I bargained for, when I am successful at achieving an OBE).

Anyway, Atlas, for your question.  After my last two OBEs when I came "home" with the lesson that there is a holographic image of the universe inside of my soul, the whole issue of whether I was really "leaving" my body became kind of moot.  And THAT's why I feel so good.  The whole thing might be in my head . . . but who cares.  I have the entire universe within me.  I am a part of the WHOLE.  Woo hoo!

Q.  Could you elaborate on : "Reality is a funny thing. Perception is a funny thing. The more cosmic you get, the LESS clear it gets and the MORE clear it gets . . . both at the same time."  

A.  Not without sounding like a blithering idiot.  Reconciling dualities/opposites/inconsistencies can be very hard for a human to achieve.  Trying to EXPLAIN it is even harder.  

Q.  I don't know...I think it would be very "spiritually rewarding" to win 60 million and give it all to charities. There is a "reality" where there are starving children in desperate need of food. 60 million could go a long way towards helping them out, I don't see what's so non-spiritual about that.

A.  Win the lottery feed a few thousand hungry kids . . . they poop it out in three days, and guess what, they're still poor.  HM.  Not much help there.  I'd rather work to spread love and do RIGHT- - it's contagious, and then instead of just me doling out the $$$, there are thousands of people doing RIGHT by the innocents of this world, with food, medicine, and justice.  I like my idea better.  Don't get me wrong - - I give $$$ when I can, but OBEing is HARD WORK . . . I don't want to waste it, I want something bigger than money.

Q.  How does understanding that we live in the present make time travel possible?

A.  I'm not talking about living in the present . . . I'm talking about the eternal NOW, all points of time happening at once.  No space/time.  Imagine the Un-time before the big bang.  There is a name for it.  It starts with an S, drat, I can't remember what it is.  The SINGULARITY.  Yeah!

Q.  Do you have faith in the above, or do you KNOW it? If you do know it, how did you come to know it?

A.  Pure faith.  It's good enough for me . . . the proof is my life.

Blessings,
tisha

[Atlas]

>>Atlas, I'll try. I wasn't going to try, because (this is a quote from somewhere) "most leave through the door they came in." Meaning, why should I try to change you - - - you are where you are, psychically, for a good reason, and I could write ANYTHING here and it wouldn't change your opinion.<<

This is not true at all. It kind of bothers me how often I get this kind of "you will never change" response. That somehow a skeptic (which I am not really) is set in stone and cannot be changed. I'm just looking for a little reason and logic, to help me understand things like everyone else.

>>Yup, that's kind of what I'm saying. We have a "consensus reality," i.e., some norms we generally agree to so as to operate effectively together in time/space - - - but only generally, because there is obviously plenty to fight over, just read the news. For instance, when I say black, you THINK you know what I mean. You might be wrong. But it's good enough to get us through the day.<<

Right, but I wouldnt say this makes reality itself subjective, but the interpretation is. For instance, if I get punched in the nose, it doesnt bleed because we "agree" it does..  If I go blind when I lose an eye, I don't think it's because I agree to it This is an objective event that occurs regardless of how I feel about it. How we FEEL about it is different though, and subjective.

>>Reality is unbelievably, mindblowingly subjective.<<

See, what I think is that there is an OBJECTIVE reality that exists independent of observation. The INTERPRETATION of this reality is subjective, but the actual reality is not. Take 9/11 for instance. There are many different ideas about who is responsible, who is bad, who is good, why it happened etc, ...these are all subjective responses, but they are all responding to the OBJECTIVE reality of 2 planes crashing into the WTC on 9/11.

>>Anything you can conceive of is real, is happening, is now.<<

See this is the kind of statement I don't understand. What do you mean? If I think in my head that I can jump from the eiffel tower and fly to london that it is real? Is that what you mean? I can reasonably be sure that no matter what, if I jump unaided from the eiffel tower, I will crash into the ground with a 99% chance of being killed.

>>Once the human community fully understands and internalizes its inherent spaciness it will start interacting with the world a little differently . . .<<

Why? I don't see how understanding that there is space between my atoms changes things. It's not as if because I realize this, I will start being able to walk through walls, right? In what way is this supposed to change one's world view?

>>A. Pure faith. It's good enough for me . . . the proof is my life.<<

I see.

THanks for the response.

Atlas

[Frank]

Patty: The Astral proper is a very stable environment. What I mean is, when you are able to remain completely closed, emotionally, and have all your senses working normally. Which, of course, is *very* tricky to do but by no means impossible.

Problem is, any slight variation from this mental stance and reality fluctuations begin to come into play. In other words, your scenery begins changing and entities begin being created. Which means you stop experiencing the true-Astral and you become engulfed by your own emotional interplay. Which is basically what happens to everybody at first (well, maybe there are the odd exceptions).

Another big stumbling block arises out of this, in that, people think they are indulging in a true-Astral experience: when all they are experiencing is their own emotional interplay. It is extremely difficult to separate the two. Next to imposible, in fact. Unless you are experienced enough to know what to do.

Problem with that is, you get caught in a Catch-22 situation where, in order to know what to look for you need to have had a degree of true-Astral experience... but you will never get a degree of true-Astral experience if you are locked in emotional interplay. As I have said before, it took me over 5 years to get out of this.

Another difficulty with experiencing emotional interplay is you never get to finding out anything interesting. You cannot interact with Astral residents on any kind of meaningful basis; you never get to meet any guides who can take you around and show you what's what, answer questions for you, and so on.

As a result, you get locked in a situation (like Jason, et al) where you know that you are having what feels like an obe experience. However, when you analyse those experiences, there is nothing about them that would suggest they are anything other than lucid dreams.

From that stance, I guess it would only be natural to conclude (albeit wrongly) that obe's are merely lucid dreams.

Yours,
Frank







 

[Frank]

Mobius:

As I understand it, the phasing-in concept is what Monroe used to make contact with the Astral. As I pointed out before, there was no laying down for hours doing any kind of "energy work" or igniting Chakras, etc. He seemed to just lay back and make contact in a few seconds.

The big problem I have is due to what you call: blackouts.

These occur with me initially when trying to make Astral contact, and can also occur during my Astral experiences. Very much in the manner you describe.

Often I'd be laying down relaxing and allowing my focal point of awareness to drift upwards to the top of my head. Then I might blackout for an instant then suddely see the Astral come into view. Or I might jolt back to the Physical, or find myself in a variety of other states.

Because there would be a short blackout I'd get frustrated thinking what happened during this blackout that got me from there to here. The frustration was due to not being able to find out what, exactly, was the mental trigger. Because if I couldn't realise that, then I couldn't repeat it at will. And repeat it at will, is what I am trying to achieve.

That's why I became so enthralled by Monroe's technique of phasing in.

I think I'm getting close. The past couple of weeks I deliberately paid no prior attention to the physical at all. Instead, I've been building a mental picture of two small hands that reside in my head.

I mentally thing of these hands going searching around trying to "hit the spot". They go around massaging various parts of the brain, trying to find the mental switch that has to be thrown in order to make connection to the Astral.

I've had some *very* interesting results with this.

A couple of times now I have found myself at the onset of feeling gentle mental vibrations (that I recognise as the onset of an obe). The difference being, however, I am *entirely* aware of my physical body and my physical surroundings. Problem is, the slight excitement at finding myself being able to do this scuppers the attempt. But that is something I will overcome with practise.

Plus, there is still an ever so tiny blackout in that I am unsure of the exact spot my focal point of consciousness was at when the vibrations came about.

Another thing I managed to do, but again there is a similar tiny blackout, is to be completely aware of my physical body and physical surroundings, yet I have found myself looking at pictures in my mind that are as vivid, and seem as real as any image I have seen with my physical eyes.

In fact, first time it happened I opened my physical eyes to check that they were, in fact, closed. Then it was like there were two images, one slightly higher than the other. The lower image was of my bedroom that I know was coming from my physical eyes as, when I closed them, the image went away.

The upper image was just as clear but, what I was seeing on that "screen", was not of the physical world. It was like someone was playing me a kind of movie. But I couldn't make sense of it all.

As I've said before, another morning, another mystery.

Yours,
Frank