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Lighten, I think that's a great question and one I've been pondering.

How much of our current identity do we lose or move beyond between lives? Do I 'return' to a baseline soul consciousness when I die? Personally, currently, I think the answer may be yes, based on my perceived 'mental' state when I project. I seem noticeably distant or disconnected from my current physical/mental/emotional/life status when I have an obe.

In my physical state, I sense an undercurrent of fear and loss of identity associated with obe and death.

How much of that is natural? I'm no longer that 8 year old boy; I've certainly left something behind, if not many things...how do I choose to characterize it? As something I've lost or something I've evolved into...?

With Obe and Death, what within me is fearing the transition? Is it the Ego described by Freud? To give it a name for reference, is the Ego that quasi-biological/metaphysical link that fears it's own extinction upon death? Maybe the Ego does get left behind, and it's scared and fighting for it's survival...

All the exit symptoms that we report early on in our attempts, aberrant noises, screams of 'No!', 'Stop!' and 'Don't do that!'...the lurking FEAR and shadowy, cloaked figures that all seem configured to divert our intention on projecting...is this all simply a manifestation of our Ego trying to desperately hold onto its position in our consciousness? Because we are about to leave it behind?

Just some thoughts.

I'll add my 2 cents to Stookie's and Xanth's excellent advice.
Yes, sometimes you need to relax and "take a breather" in order to gather momentum for the next step, and these "steps" may be smaller or less obvious than you first thought.

Imho, you may need a greater degree of "intention" of what to do next; where do you want to go? Who do you want to see? What do you want to do next?...quite often, I'll find that I've expended all this energy and preparation to achieve an exit...and then I'll just float there with no real distinct purpose or intention in mind---and it just doesn't occur to you automatically, at least for me and probably most of the time for me. So I have to work at it step by small step, building in secondary and tertiary "intentions".
Sometimes this works and others I just head off in a random direction, not quite accomplishing what I had originally planned.

Seems to me you could just patiently wait for the hypnogogics to slow down to the point where the 3D blackness returns and then express an intent to visit this place or that person...or you could step into the vision screen at some point, knowing that it's likely a Lucid of some degree and change your circumstances from there. Myself, I usually get sucked into the Lucid and go from there. The initial energy and exhilaration of experiencing the vision screen can be overwhelming.

Great work, keep us posted!

Thanks for the info CFTraveler,

I have to ask too, can you expand on the idea of 'third eye projections'?

threemoons, it's a pleasure sharing ideas with you and I get the feeling you'll travel far and fast in your endeavors!

The Monroe courses have been a huge temptation for me, especially since his place is just a couple hours away, literally in my back yard. A little personal history: Monroe's first book was my first OBE introduction that I discovered when I was 13 years old. When I was a young twenty-something, around 1982, my friend had a cabin in the Blue Ridge mountains that I would weekend at and one afternoon I realised that Monroe's home in Afton was only 20 or so miles away; I drove through the town and inquired but was told that he had moved, whereabouts unknown. As it turned out, he had only relocated some ten miles away. I still wonder what possible, different direction my life might have taken had I found the place...heck, I'd have swept floors for minimum wage at the time.

But then again, around the same time, I almost hopped a bus to Oregon to join an ashram with Bagwhan Shree Rajneesh...he got busted and deported by the IRS a few years later.   "Focus on the breath in, focus on the breath out, focus on the turning." Way cool at the time...

But hey, back to your original post for a moment. It seems you can quickly relax to the point of seeing hypnogogic imagery; my experience and understanding says that you should passively observe this until it slows considerably. Then you can 'step into' one of these scenes, but you'll just be in some dream of your own creation (which can be fun all on its own) or you can wait a moment longer and let all the images fade, leaving a white screen or a black screen. Most experienced OBErs describe a black screen and label it the 3D Blackness. In that blackness they wait for and look for a three-dimensional quality or depth to develop, then look for an inconsistancy or subtle difference in the texture, which indicates a portal of sorts...they focus on that and are drawn into it, and are transported into a much 'truer' astral realm.

I've done the hypnogogics, seen the 3D screen, but I don't think I've taken the plunge successfully, rather I have dived off into some lingering dream hypnogogics, then maybe shifted astral; it can all get quite confusing. Most of my OBEs have been the traditional lift out/wander around the bedroom type.

So read up on the 3D Blackness. And I forgot to mention the Astral FAQs here as well.

You also mention Paralysis. It's good that you don't get bothered by that; it's a great roadsign that your body is sufficiently turned off that your spirit can go have some fun! Try just floating out, or rolling or stepping out. During this time, you may experience the Vibrations which can be disconcerting but are perfectly normal and another good roadsign to exit.

Have fun, EV.

I'm prone to do the 'wine thing' too much and honestly, that's the singular thing that slows my progress...no excuse for it, I just have to resolve to clean up that part of my life if I truly want to advance.

Finding quiet time is a challenge, I know what you mean.

As far as books or readings to recommend, I can suggest several: Robert Monroe has 3 wonderful books-Journeys Out of the Body; Far Journeys (a favorite); Ultimate Journey. They are a great read and should be taken in succession for best effect to properly understand his personal journey. That being said, I don't recommend them at first; they don't offer much in the way of techniques so that doesn't help you get out or get much closer to understanding the mental perspective for achieving an exit. His experiences do run practically the entire gamut of OBE/astral possibilities, and best of all, he delivers it without any occult or esoteric overlay, just commonsense reporting. Early on he invented/discovered Hemi-sync audio entrainment, and started an OBE research foundation, you should google The Monroe Institute. He left us quite a legacy and is properly considered one of, if not the modern day pioneer of OBE exploration.

Out of Body Experiences--by Robert Peterson; a good read with balanced perspective and a fair number of techniques.

Adventures Beyond the Body--by William Buhlman; this is next on my list. It is well recommended by others, looks to have a broad perspective (I'm not too keen on 'just' one perspective, whether it be Occult, Theosophical, Wiccan, Kaballistic or whatever; take it all in and decide what to do with it later).

Voyages into the Unknown--by Bruce Moen; Another book on my list. He went through the Monroe Institute programs and wrote several books that are well regarded; with him you'll read about "retrievals".
For more on retrievals, search for posts on this site by Ginny...great stuff, great insight from her.

Soul Flight--by Donald Tyson; currently, I'm halfway through this book and it's a well-written history of the whole OBE subject, from Druidic/Pagan/Shamanic beginnings, through Occult and Theosophic traditions, up to CIA remote-viewing experiments.

Astral Dynamics--by Robert Bruce; Alongside Monroe's work this is considered a recent classic. It's long, gives extensive advice on "energy work" for the dreaming/etheric body that I have found very useful, and gives a perspective on OBE's that includes a multitude of etheric/astral entities that one may encounter, including "negative entities". Some people encounter these things and some don't...nevertheless, the information and advice is excellent.

Again, some of the best information is right here. Dig into Permanent Astral Topics, check out "Techniques", Focus 10, and the Frank Kepple Resource...all great stuff.

Hope this is helpful, EV.

threemoons, I don't meditate in the traditional sense but very rarely these days; a great practice, no doubt, but being an impatient voyager, I pursue certain aids or alternate methods. I have used, over the last couple years, the Monroe Gateway cd's and currently a Tibetan Chakra meditation cd.

All the above is good stuff and is, no doubt, helpful and maybe necessary preparatory work, but for me, my best results have come from the WBTB method, where I wake up in the middle of the night and then settle back to observe the hypnogogics, and transform them into something that i can "step into". What I step into can range from a Dream to an Etheric/RTZ OBE, to a Phasing OBE.

How often? Well, that depends on my level of Intent. If I'm serious, and apply myself daily, then maybe twice a week, depending on other factors. With daily living, work and lots of stress...I can go for months with nothing. With that said, it's so dependent on the individual and how much effort you want to put into it.

As to whether AP is real or not, it's either real or a hell of a complex hallucination that defies any scientific explanation, and I mean not even close! When you find yourself "out", you'll know it beyond doubt. Hah!, as far as premeditated hallucinations/dream fantasies go, I've spent far more time visualising myself frolicking with the ladies at the Playboy Mansion...and sadly, never been able to manifest that "reality" like I have my other OBE adventures  . Proof enough for me!

As to "seeing your sleeping body", even that's not so simple as it may seem. The first few times I did notice a "body" in my bed; but when I specifically looked for my body, there was only an empty "space" where my body should have been. The next time, I tried to look at my body but found I could not turn my head towards my body except with the utmost difficulty...I can only surmise that somehow, subconsciously, I was unwilling to deal with the fact of seeing my "separate" body.

All very fascinating stuff. Does it point towards Spirituality and an evolving Afterlife; I haven't verified that for myself but it sure seems to point that way in big NEON letters; so I'll keep searching...

Onward, EV.

threemoons,

welcome to the forum! Your description of your experiences indicate a good number of "pre-exit" symptoms. The trick is recognising which one's to pay attention to and follow, and which one's to ignore; all the while not getting too excited by the overall experience, thus short-circuiting the process.

My best advice, first, would be to suggest that you research this site as far back as possible, and work your way forward, say, starting with Permanent Astral Topics and then this section (Discussions), paying particular attention to Posters such as Frank, Ginny, Adrian, Upstream, James, CFT, TVOS and many others (with apologies to anyone I'm forgetting ). Actually, everyone's comments are instructive to the difficult process of interpretation of what we are dealing with...there are no instruments or gauges that we take with us, it's all subject to our interpretations/current belief systems...but most Posters add small but nonetheless significant pieces to the overall "Grand Picture", some which you may recognise in your current experience, some maybe not until later. Keep a journal; you'll find it a good resource later.

At some point, you need to tackle the Frank Kepple Phasing Resource...it's invaluable.

Also, do a search on the "3D Blackness"; that's the next step beyond the hypnogogic imagery that you seem to be encountering. Great stuff and good, quick progress on your part.

I say this as a slightly younger contemporary (47). I have been meditating on and off, trying for OBE's for 30 plus years with only sporadic, accidental success...that is until discovering the sheer wealth of info on sites such as this one.

Also, check out MABA (MindAwakeBodyAsleep) and WBTB (WakeBackToBed).

Just some thoughts to get you started; only about 50 hours of research.

Enjoy, have fun and see you out there. EV

gil-galad,

I think Stookie's advice is right on target for a direct, conscious state exit. I think it applies to almost any state or condition you may find yourself in, when the "opportunity" presents itself. But like he said, it's a delicate balance between "passive" and "active". Too passive, you fall asleep; too active, you wake up.

Personally, I've yet to project from a totally conscious, just meditating kind of state. My conscious mind just would not give up control; or if it did, I simply fell asleep. So, I looked for a kind of back door method. What I have found some success with was the WakeBackToBed method (WBTB).

WBTB means that you follow your normal sleep pattern but interrupt it. Say you normally go to bed at 11pm and wake up at 7am. With WBTB, you set your alarm for 3 or 4am. Now, you can do one or two things: you can simply roll over and head back to sleep while trying to retain some conscious awareness and apply some exit techniques; or, you can get up and stay awake for 10 to 30 minutes and then return to bed for a meditative attempt. Different time periods have different effects, and no doubt, will work with varying success for different people.

Sometimes, I can flip off the alarm, roll over and instantly feel the vibrations kicking in, and have an easy RTZ/etheric exit. Sometimes it goes nowhere.

Other times, I can get up and putter around for 15 minutes, return to bed and get vibrations and a very lucid OBE.

Then again, sometimes I get nothing, no matter what I try.

One time, I propped up my pillows so that I was almost sitting up in bed, relaxed...and the next thing I knew, my body was snoring and asleep...while my mind was totally awake. I saw hypnogogics, the mind screen, the 3D blackness. That was the first time I truly understood Monroe's description of Mind Awake/Body Asleep...and I undertook an interesting set of astral phasings (and experienced the difference between phasing and traditional projection!)

For me, the key seems to be that, after several hours of sleep, my physical body has rested enough so that it doesn't just drag my consciousness down into oblivion, but also that my mind is not so active that an OBE is impossible.

Oh yeah, rundowns. Stookie makes a great point in that an active, moving visual is key to initiating an exit, at least in some instances. You really have to discover this for yourself. When you enter that meditative, pre-exit stage, keep things moving along in some visual manner. Selski offered the trampoline visual; try a rollercoaster, or jogging through the woods... I somehow ended up sledding on snow (backwards!) down some hills, first by my own visualisation, then it took on a life of its own---the next thing I knew I was dumped on my head, unceremoniously, onto a snowy road... and it felt totally real! I was there!

Anyway, that's what currently is working for me. Maybe it serves to help re-wire or re-program my circuitry so that I can one day OBE at-will as Stookie describes. Onward and (hopefully) upward!

Hope this helps a little, EV.

Panthau,

I think that you are closer than you realise. It may have been "just a dream" but don't discount its significance. Your dream was clearly OBE related and indicates that your subconscious is working on and re-evaluating physical/astral reality relationships. On a conscious level, you may think that you've already settled this issue, but on a deeper level you're still "coming to grips" with the concept.  Just as dbmathis said, you may be doing some "re-wiring". I've noticed the same thing in my own practice.

Remember, even your dreams are taking place on an "astral" level. They may seem low-level and inconsequential at the time, but in fact are necessary groundwork for the road ahead.

And it's perfectly allright to take a break for a couple weeks and not pursue anything "astral", even preferable. Forget about it completely; do other things totally unrelated. That gives your subconscious time to digest what its learned and assimilate.

Then, don't be surprised if something unexpected may happen, without your "willing" it.

Life works that way on many levels.

Don't rush it, this can take some time. The rewards are well worth the effort!

Best of luck, EV.

Whether diorite or Sackrete cement, it's amazing architecture...

And i think the quote by Plato is so apt...but hasn't he always been such?

I agree with more brow or crown chakra work; or maybe just overall energybody work beforehand.

It always struck me as somehow incongruous, reading about others experiencing this 'odd' phenomenon...that was until it happened to ME!
I remember easily detaching by my feet and rotating my feet skyward, only to realise that I was pivoting at my head and otherwise 'stuck'! I kept tugging, trying to float straight up, with no luck. Finally, with a fair amount of frustration building, I just rolled straight up and over and back, flipping out the backside of my head and into a significantly different OBE environment than what I was used to...made me realise there might be a whole lot more truth to Monroe's description of rolling 180 degrees and exiting through the back of his head into a different world than I initially gave him credit for.

It's amazing: given some time, effort and the resulting experience, nearly everything described by the more notable OBE explorers can be validated; at least by my own, personal results.

Enough to keep me looking. Best to all.

EV

I certainly understand the difficulty sometimes, in describing these experiences. Often, I'm at a strange loss for words.

Is what you're talking about maybe, 'phasing'?

I think I've done both; and the old-fashioned, etheric? OBE appears with much more 'physical' qualities and descriptors, while 'phasing'  seems much more mental, with instantaneous 'shifts' in awareness/place/time. No vibes, no noises, no warning...just the shift.

Is phasing a slight evolution beyond the traditional OBE? Or just the other side of the same coin?

Just open-ended questions, I don't know. Although my own practices have seen a gradual reduction in vibrational intensity towards a 'warmth' of vibes and more mental shifting.

EV

Like Stookie says,
you've observed a couple key aspects already, and yes, the proper conditions can appear rather quickly and unexpectedly.

Keep in mind that you want to always maintain a curious, yet impassive, unemotional attitude when exit symptoms start happening...just let the process unfold and see what happens next, always trusting that you are safe and secure. It can get noisy and freaky! Just roll with it!

Devour as much information from this site and its archives as you can. It all serves to help direct and correlate what you are likely to experience...it sure did for me and still does. Like you said, 'without it I wouldn't be where I am'...I couldn't agree more.

See you out there,

EV

I'll try and add a little to CFT's advice,

First, don't get too frustrated; most of us go through this initial difficulty. IMO you are searching for the trigger or set of triggers that, uniquely, will work for you. You will probably 'stumble' on it, and then have to work backwards to figure out what actually worked. So, try different techniques, different times of the day or during your normal sleep cycle. Read up on the techniques offered on this site.

Every meditation/trance event you undertake, even if it is seemingly unsuccessful, serves to 'program' your subconscious/superconscious/astral mind (or whatever) with your 'intent' to go OBE or Phase, and I think that has to help create the neural/astral connections needed to complete the process.

The vibrations are unmistakeable; the noises and voices can be alarming in their realism; the floaty, disconnected feelings are physically very noticeable...these are great roadsigns but not necessarily present for everyone, or every time.

Personally, I've had a few dozen projections, but never from a clearheaded, waking, meditative trancestate, my ego still refuses to let go. But if I set my alarm for 3 in the morning, and then try meditating, my results improve dramatically. The body is rested and relaxed, and the mind is relaxed. However, sometimes I get nothing after 30 minutes of trance, get frustrated, give up and roll over to go back to sleep; and after a minute Bang! There are the vibrations and I'm lifting out...

My neural/psychic connections seem to be getting stronger, but it's still, admittedly, an imperfect process.

Another thing that helps, as CFT pointed out; any kind of preliminary chakra stimulation or Robert Bruces' energy loosening techniques are very beneficial, at least in my experience.

Best of luck and have fun,

EV

It seems to vary with individuals,

For me,  the experience varies depending on one or two things: Intent and Energy. With insufficient Intent, I can be bored, listless and almost immobile. With low Energy, I can be clumsy and almost drunk.

When everything is right, I feel hyper- aware/sensitive/intelligent...like bondgirl3007 says, it's euphoric, both during and after...

Energy work, chakra work and Intent.

Welcome radiospirit!

I think you'll find this site provides a wealth of archival knowledge as well as 'spirited' current discussion.

Personally, I've recently finished R. Peterson's first book; I have Buhlman's book next in line after I finish Castaneda's "The Art of Dreaming".

Look forward to sharing thoughts.

EV

Yikes! Was that bad form?

Only a sincere compliment was intended...

EV

Try getting up in the middle of the night or whenever your sleep cycle occurs. Get good, restful sleep for about 3 to 5 hours, then move around, read, do something that's not too strenuous or 'mentally-activating' for at least 30 minutes...and THEN try your meditation/trance/exit technique. Your body will still be very relaxed and so will your mind. Experiment with both of these time variables. Personally, it can still take me a good 30 minutes or more before something happens. Sometimes, an hour goes by, I get frustrated and give up, I roll over to salvage an hour or two of remaining sleep...and BANG! Things start to happen. WakeBackToBed Method.

Tricky stuff.

EV

Leave it to CFTraveler to hit the nail squarely on its head, just as she usually does...(reply #5).

The thought that JB1987 might be the 'abductor' didn't occur to me until later, but that makes good sense, and gets my vote after some reflection.

Always a step behind, but happy to listen and learn...

EV

You seem to be describing two separate things.

1) When you're still 'in' and spinning, flopping around...just let go as best you can and see what happens; worst thing is you fall asleep. You are, experimentally, fishing around for your own particular exit trigger. Only you can find it. What you read and what we offer here can at best, be only hints for what will work for you. Take notes, keep a journal...a year from now you'll be glad you did.

2) You describe being 'out', even if for just a few seconds or so...realise that this is a normal period of mental adjustment taking place. And it can take many small excursions like this for your 'awareness' to adjust and reorient itself to it's new environment. It's 'Focus Training'. And it can take some time and be quite frustrating literally every step of the way. It's astral baby steps...so look at it as fun and adventurous.

EV

Welcome Lunarflower,

it sounds like you're getting some activity in your brow chakra; keep working with that and do some searching on these forums on 'chakras'. Also, there's a helpful 'Astral FAQs' section worth spending some time on. The more you can read from these 'Permanent Sticky Topics', the more info you will have to correlate with what you experience in the early stages of your practice. Little tidbits of what you read will eventually resonate with what you experience, and then you'll start to have some context to work with.

Go with the flow through your brow chakra; you may find yourself in the RTZ (RealTimeZone) or in the 3D Blackness. Research both those terms.

See you out there!

EV

I think ancient_one states it pretty succinctly,

once I 'tune in', I automatically shift my focus elsewhere and forget about the vibrations. When I rejoin the physical, I may notice the vibrations or I may not. Sometimes I can 'rev' them up again for another excursion, or if my energy is low, I can't and they fade or slow down.

bonthan,

what I was trying to describe in the last paragraph of my response about the WBTB method was with regard to your description of your experience where you explained that you woke up at 7am, got something to eat and then returned to bed.

The Wake Back To Bed method recommends that you go to sleep at your normal bedtime, say 11pm, but rather than getting a 'full' nights sleep ( say you normally wake up at 7 or 8am) instead you set your alarm for 3 or 4am...you get up and putter around for 30 minutes to an hour and then return to bed and begin your meditation or exit process. Now, the trick is, during the 30 minutes to an hour that you're awake, don't just lay there dozing, but also don't go jogging for an hour. Maybe read for awhile, stretch a little, clean your room, write some OBE affirmations...the trick is to do something 'in between' for both your mind and body that both engages them and 'wakes' them up but NOT TO THE POINT where you feel like now you're fully awake and might as well just stay up and start your day.

If you just lay there dozing, you're more likely to fall back into sleep; maybe at best you'll get a Lucid.

This technique serves two important purposes: 1- your physical body has had enough 'deep, restful sleep' that it won't just drag your awareness down into the depths of oblivion; 2- your awareness will still be 'relaxed' enough that you can more easily enter into a 'trance state' which translates to an exit opportunity with more lucidity.

It's a fine line, a delicate balance, to find what initially works for you. Maybe this, coupled with the Buhlman technique that you found is 'your' particular trigger. Experiment and have fun!

And don't necessarily expect any exit symptoms immediately, it can still take an hour or more; sometimes nothing happens for me until I give up and roll over to go back to sleep...then BANG!

After years of evening meditations, toying with exit symptoms, I realised, quite by accident that the early morning tek was my individual trigger. Maybe with time and continued practice, I'll be able to succeed with an early evening exit someday.

Also, what CFT said...ya gotta climb the rope. In more ways than one.

Keep on trucking!

EV

Probably some senior members such as CFTraveler, Stookie, Selski, et al could lend a more experienced viewpoint.

But I'll offer this:

If your friend is interested in and predisposed to OBE and had the possible intent of 'visiting' you, then the answer seems pretty straightforward in that a 'helper' assisted him in coming to visit you. Could have been a seperate entity, if he somehow put out a strong enough desire/message; could have been his 'guide' or even an aspect of his 'higher self'. Who knows?

Sometimes you get exactly what you ask for! Pretty cool.

The idea of 'abduction' would be way down on my list.

EV

Congratulations bonthan,

I'll add a little to what dbmathis said,

In the old days, according to Theosophic theory, you encountered the "Dweller on the Threshold" phenomenon, which basically postulated that every new astral projector would encounter a 'guardian' standing at the 'gates of the astral' challenging any who would think they were worthy to enter...

IMO, and what seems to be the more modern thinking is that this is some residual subconscious fear that you still hold, even though you may be unaware of it, and this is how it manifests, scaring you or challenging you, trying to get you to retreat back into sleepy unconsciousness. Just the simple fact that you didn't let it terrorize you and blow the whole experience is a significant accomplishment. Next time the horsehead may not even appear; if it does (and it might even change form) then you'll need to deal with it.

You have several degrees of options: the best would be to send it waves of unconditional Love, thank it for its gentle warning, but tell it that it's no longer necessary, that you're ready to move forward. Or, you could 'COMMAND' it to leave you alone in any manner of personally suitable ways. Or you could attack it, whereupon it may instantly retreat or give you a good fight...or simply ignore it and focus on moving out of body.

Eliminate negative thoughts as best you can, anywhere, anytime. Also, program your subconcious with positive affirmations toward what you are trying to accomplish; it seems almost too simple, but it is nonetheless very effective.

The other thing I notice is that , yes, the Buhlman technique seemed to work well for you, but also keep in mind the WakeBackToBed (WBTB) method that you may have inadvertantly applied. Your body was rested but could fairly readily slip back to sleep, same with your mind. But you keep your mind occupied 'just enough' while your body slips easily into a very relaxed state, and that's when the fun begins.

Hope some of this gives you ideas.

EV