I've reached my limit...Enough is enough...

[Squeek]

I specifically did not target people who know English as a second language.  Sorry if that wasn't made clear to you.  I apologize for making you feel the way you felt, and let anyone else know the only concern I have with this is for the people that have English as their primary language.

Don't feel sad. []  No criticism was meant towards you.

~Squeek

[beavis]

Squeek Did it honestly take you longer to type it out the "right" way?

beavis Jeff, that argument doesnt hold up if you dont like what they taught you, like if it was an anal sex class.

Jeff that arg not hold up if u dont like what they taught , like an anal sex class.

Ys it tuk longer 2 type currectley.

Jeff Mash The way I look at it is this. I was forced to take English classes all through High School, and I'll be damned if I went through that hell for nothing!

Beavis, my arguement DOES hold up, if you keep it in context. To use your example, if I was forced to go through an anal sex class all through high school, even if I didn't like it, I wouldn't come to an online sexuality forum for anal sex and post about other positions.


In my example, you will use your new anal skill because you dont want to have gone "through that hell for nothing".

[Syke]

... receiving or giving?.. lol.

bugger it. im just gonna type the way i feel comfortable.
yes i've taken english since i started school (i've failed since year 8 due to lazyness) but even if i type without the use of complete punctuation or capitalisation i think i still get my message aross quite easily.

Squeek, you say this is only targetted at those of us who have english as our primary language... well if it's such a big deal why don't you want other people speaking their own language correctly. they spent just as much time learning it.

some of you are speaking as though english is some holy, superior language. you want those who have been learning it since birth to type it perfectly and those who havnt to try their best.
do you go about your every day activities speaking with perfect crisp pronounciation?... if you do, you're a rare find as there's no point if you are simply comunicating with your fellow man

the point im trying to get across is that english is just another language. no specialties about it. as long as the majority of the readers can understand it, there shouldn't be a problem.
-Syke

[Squeek]

English isn't a superior language, but it is the one we use here at the forums.

And with your example of pronunciation, I say yes.  There shouldn't be a time when the language you know best is used less than any other time.

What I don't like is the primary counter-argument.  The majority of the defense is "...as long as people can read it..."

This in not read can be though it order is.

Nobody types like that, but the point is, that's proof that it's still readable, but it makes no sense.  I could find examples for you, but why don't I just let you do that for yourself.

This topic was aimed towards finding the source of the problem and resolving it.  I didn't want to start another debate.

~Squeek

[jc84corvette]

I think if tyou can read it, then its ok. My opinion.

[Syke]

when i said readable i meant understandable as im sure other people who used that 'defence' did.

im not sure what you were trying to prove with that highlighted example.
yes each individual word was readable in itself, but the sentance wasnt, so the point wasnt received by the reader.
but when people use sentances like "ud h8 2 b lyk dat wouldnt u" the entire sentance is still understandable so everyone knows what youre saying.

stop being such a square and get over it. just continue typing the way you like to and put up with the way others do. you cant change everyone to be more like you... ive tryed []

-Syke

[Squeek]

Short and Sweet.

I will NOT conform to the wrong way.  Don't even make that suggestion!

Numbers shouldn't have ever replaced full words.  Full words shouldn't have ever been shortened, especially since most of the words you've shortened were about three letters long in the first place!

Grr...*shakes fist*

~Squeek [|)]

[beavis]

Syke continue typing the way you like

Squeek I will NOT conform to the wrong way. Don't even make that suggestion!

[Squeek]

Once again you've missed the reference point here beavis.

quote:stop being such a square and get over it. just continue typing the way you like to and put up with the way others do. you cant change everyone to be more like you... ive tryed

Does it make sense now?

Once AGAIN!  This is NOT MEANT to be a debate! Don't make it one!

Read carefully to find the main point of this topic.  It is in the last line of one of my posts.

~Squeek

[James S]

See if I can put this more objectively....

Since reading my first Dr Seuss book, I have learned to read english in it's standard accepted format. Even considering the change in rhetoric and addition of new words over the years, the syntax of the english language, whether it is right or wrong, has remained constant over the past few hundred years.

Admittedly compared to other languages, English is badly messed up, but it's what is used here, and is what has become the world's defacto international business language, so lets just accept that and get on with it.

The advent of SMS & text messaging hasn't changed the english language. What it's done is add a new dialect to the language. Just like Jargon, it is a more specialised form of the language used for a specific communication medium.

When I open up a novel, I find it easy to read because it is written in standard english. When someone sends a text message to my phone using SMS jargon, I have to concentrate more on reading it because I'm effectively having to interpret it. I also find it much harder to read sentences, paragraphs, or in some really bad cases I've seen here, entire posts that have no proper capitalisation or punctuation, and poor spelling. It becomes so hard to read that I just give up on it and go on to the next post. It's a shame because that person might have written something of real value to me, but it's just to hard to read.

Because we have ample text entry abilities on this forum, it is not necessary to use the SMS style abbreviated dialect. The main function of this forum is to pass on and discuss ideas. Isn't presenting that idea in a clear and easy to understand manner more important than how fast it is typed?

Consider also the number of people we have on the forum to whom english is their second language. They already have to mentally interpret what people are writing, so why make it any harder for them?

Actually most non-english speaking members of this site write in much better english than many others here, simply because they take more care about what they're doing to translate their thoughts correctly.

Now to be less objective - I think it is unfair that people wan't to beat up on Squeek because he want's to see the level of communication here improved. I don't wish to sound like a snob, but most members are here because they are thinking people, typically with higher than the average IQs. There should be no excuse for people to write like they have single figure IQs, especially when you look at the complexity of some of the issues discussed on this forum.

It's not about conformity, it's about communicating.

Regards,
James.

[theNEO]

I don't see a problem here.  People just lazy at the keyboard that's all.

[Syke]

Squeek I wasn't telling you to conform to anything. I was telling/asking you to stop trying to get other people to conform to the way you want them to be.

I was saying that you should just get over the fact that people are different and put up with it. Not that you have to become like them, just don't diss them.

-Syke

[TheSeeker]

Wut did jOO say 2 meh?[]

[Mobius]

Hello all

It's been a long time since I have been here & out of all the posts I could have read this is the one that caught my attention. A strange thing on this type of forum, since everything to do with the main subject of this forum/site (OBE's & AP's etc)being very abstract & imprecise things in themselves. Semantics, is just as futile a subject there as it is here on the physical.

You can quite easily change yourself, but you can rarely change others.Unless they want it.

Squeek, I thank you for bringing up the difference between "loose" & "lose". That is something that really annoys me & it's funny that in this world of ever increasing acronym & abbreviation usage, that people actually make the word "lose" longer! by spelling it "loose". Hell, they could have saved themselves an "o"! []

I also thank you squeek, for showing me that this is not just an American thing. As it is Americans I most often see spelling it this way.

However, as you would know, being either a teacher or journalist or one in training. The "English" language has changed so much since it was first used as a written language & we don't exactly walk around saying "Egad, thoust hath smite me!" anymore do we?

If anyone should be complaining about the use of the "English" language, it should be the English. When you say that people should take the time to learn the "correct" way of writing "English". Do you mean the American way of writing "English"? As it is the USA who has already done away with the "correct" way of spelling a word in the "English" language & decided it would use it's own way of spelling things.

Here in Australian schools & Universities, when you type something in a word document,we/they have the choice of using an "English", "Australian English" or "American English" spell check. Just out of curiosity, do Americans only have an "American" spell check?[]

I pity newcomers to the "English" languange, as they have to learn the proper meaning of many words that all sound similar e.g. where, wear, we're & hear,here & there,their, they're, all meaning different things, but all sounding the same. A child born into the language already understands the meaning & only have to use the spell check to correct themselves once something has been written. Never needing to really know the correct way, unless, they choose a job that requires them to type or write without the aid of a spell check.

I remember my Grandfather saying to me (because of his lack of understanding at the time). "What is the use of writing on a computer, as opposed to a type writer? Look at all the complications added to what should be a simple task. You have your keyboard & about a hundred extra tools to supposedly help you in writng a letter!"

He would have scoffed at his great grandfather saying to him "what do you need a contraption (a typewriter) to push letters onto a page for you? When you can just write it with your hand?"

Are we looking at ourselves now, in this time, as resistant to change as our predecessors were? Fast forward the button of time a few hundred years & do we think we will still be using keyboards? I'm sure if everything isn't by that stage mind controlled, it will be at least voice & motion controlled, largely doing away with our need to write "anything" correctly. I wonder if the ancient Egyptians scolded each other for leaving the tail feather off a dove in their heiroglyphs? Or do the Chinese concern themselves with someone not drawing a line a smidgin longer than it should be?

Squeek I am wholeheartedly with you on the lack of some peoples spelling abilities (people who do not use english as their first language are exempt),grammar & syntax. But I wonder, are we just people resistant to change?

Good journeys all

Mobius[8]

[greatoutdoors]

Squeek, good for you for expressing the thoughts of many of us! Stay the course![] I don't worry about posts that contain a few "typos"; we all make them. But when I see a post that looks like a 3rd grader's work I have two reactions:

First I check to see if the writer is from an English-speaking country. If not, I cut them a great deal of slack and admire them for their second-language abilities -- I am an "English only" moron and not proud of it. (I know, of course, that you aren't addressing those folks anyway).

Second, if the writer is a primary English speaker, I assume he/she is either very young or very ignorant and in either case dismiss their thoughts as useless at the very least.

I think it was you who said that people are judged by first impressions and made the point that this also applies to a written impression. That is absolutely true.

Syke, you certainly have a right to speak/write in any way you wish. Just realize that the more you do it, the more it becomes a habit and habits can be horrendously hard to break.

Mobius, I recall reading something a long time ago that dealt with Chinese writing skills. It indicated that they do, indeed, pay a lot of attention to accuracy and, as a result, written Chinese is a very hard art to master. I agree with you that our word processing abilities will keep evolving (so long as we don't destroy ourselves too soon). But the lazy among us will likely always find a way to mess it up. []

I agree, too, about the difference between American English and English. "Sulphur" vs. "Sulfur" comes to mind. But, hey, we have to play the hand we're dealt! I just believe we should play it as well as we can. []

[cailin]

Jeff, I totally agree with you on this one, and it's a pity because people lose out when it's so hard to read their posts.

Notice how I got their right, he he.

English is a beautiful language is'nt that enough of a reason to keep it as it is?
We have certainly lost enough beautiful words already, condemned to dictionaries and old novels.
Read some Jane Austin and see the difference, there was so much eloquence in speaking, such a descriptive language.
I would say that other languages also posses this quality too of course.

So all I want to say is, lets just try and keep the language beautiful!
If for nothing else but that reason alone!

[Kazbadan]

Hey Squeek, do´nt lose your mynd our you wil start getting crazy...truli. []

Now, talking serious, you must remember that there are many people like me that doesn´t speak english. I learned some english in school at some years ago, but i forgot important rules and i´m always making confusion with some basic rules (specially in the verbs).

Maybe we should learn Esperanto, the universal and easy to learn language. I started at some time ago and i know to say some basic things:

La kukoj estis bonaj! translation: The cookies were good!
Mi estas Kazbadan. I´m Kazbadan.

Learn it, it´s fun and easy.

[The AlphaOmega]

Just for the record, writing without paragraphs is a valid form of writing.  It's called free-writing, in which you simply spill out what you are thinking without pausing or creating a new paragraph for each thought.  It's even taught in college english.  The english language is the hardest to learn for other nationalities because there are so many different ways of saying things.  Fact of the matter is, proper grammer is not actually proper in the english language.  So though you may get upset because some don't start new paragraphs ,or may use slang... it's all still the english language.  Suck it up!

[Wyzeguy211]

I haven't read this entire topic, so bear with me, please, if this has been said before:
There are only two good reasons for speaking/writing bad english:
1) It isn't your first language.
2) You're an American. Because everybody (read: nobody) knows that mercilessly butchering the English language is right up there with: letting their government decieve them, possessing 2.3 (made up number) guns in EVERY household, and bashing the religion of their nation's founders, on Wyzeguy's Unofficial List of Things Most Americans Do Best.

Personally, I try to type English as best as possible.[8D]

[Mobius]

Hi all

The AO, you are absolutely right about free writing with it's lack of paragraphs. Some people just dont feel the need to break their writing up into blocks of sentences & I believe that is their perogative.

While I agree with those who say they find it difficult to read when people write like that & often skip the message altogether. It's really just my own lack of adaptability that has stopped me from paying attention to something that is there. Because it's not what I am used to, or it's not the way I have learned it myself.

After examining some of these posts in question. I find that most of the spelling "mistakes" are really just people who have spelled the word phonetically. That is, they have spelled the word as it sounds.

I gather the reason the word "lose", doesn't get spelled like "looze" or "looz", is because the people that are spelling like this, have had at least "some" education & know that the word contains an "s" & not a "Z", so they spell it "loose".

Wyzeguy?!!!! *Mobius rubs his eyes & read Wyzeguys post again*. Are you a real American? Or are you an immigrant? I thought that putting down your own country was a right that was reserved for us Australians, the British & Canadians. Don't tell me you have been infected!

I am honestly curious about this, so can an American please answer my question in my last post? Do you guys only have an "American" spell check in your word documents? Or is there provision for "English" spelling in there?

Wizeguy, I am also surprised to see your reaction to guns, being an American & all. Not that it has anything to do with this subject, but for yours & anyone elses information. We had a great gun debate on this site about a year ago. I was one of the few who were against guns & the majority of members (mainly Americans) were pro gun.Peaceful Warrior was the main backer of the need for every peace loving individual to stock up on an arsenal of weapons. Check it out, twas quite entertaining, however, war won the day against peace & I walked away with my tail between my legs.[B)]

A few examples of the difference between American spelling & English spelling.

English spelling American spelling
authorise authorize
aluminium aluminum
organisation organization
criticise criticize
centre center
metre ( as in kilometre) meter
wharfe wharf
colour color
axe ax
arse  butt (lol)

Ok, good journeys all

Mobius[8]

[Squeek]

I like how simple it is to take a global issue such as this and centralize it down to just one country.  There are the three major English speaking only (or so... whatever) countries here: The UK, The US, and Australia.  These are my primary targets, not just America.  I agree that we have a lot of stupid people here that could care less for the English language as it is, but then there are the radical teenagers such as myself who really do care for the words I proclaim across an entire planet.

Speaking of which, the problem did not originate in the United States, the problem originated in the Internet.  How could "simplified and faster" text have come about if there were no reason to type "faster"?

And just for kicks... I don't have a gun in this household, I don't care for any religion, and I do not mercilessly butcher the English language.  I don't like to be associated with those who do, so thanks for the "most" in your sentence.

I have taken a quick look around for the newest set of errors and have located this error.  It takes place in the transition of contractions to text.  While it is easy to say "Would've", you really pronounce that broken word as another real English word.  This is the root of the problem in this situation, where the partial " 've " has become "of".  Would of, could of, and should of are all wrong...  It's just the way it goes.  Would have, could have, and should have.

One more thing, Even though you pronounce "Used to" without the double d sound, you don't spell it that way.  Throw that D back where it belongs in the word "used", and don't leave it as "Use to".

Let's keep it going! [|)]

~Squeek

[Mobius]

Hi all

Hahaaaaaaa!!!!!! Squeek.Tis quite funny your discomfort at slight mistakes in grammar. Shows how pedantic this subject really is. First it was the spelling, now it is the grammar. Next it will be syntax.

I took the liberty of writing my posts in a word document & then pasted them in here. After using the spell check, I re-worded the posts & removed something from here & there. So my question is, why pick on poor ol "used to" (use to)? .

What about it's (its) or don't (dont) or else's (elses) or perogative (prerogative) or heiroglyphs (hieroglyphs) or hey, I've got a good one! I spelled "Squeek" wrong (squeak), oops! But then again, so did you. You chose a mispronunciation as your name, cool.

Since we are going to get pedantic about the subject. What is with your lack of understanding of how nouns work? Why do you spell "English" as english?. Would you do the same for america (America)? []

quote by squeek

"This problem lies in proper use of english"

Dont you mean the proper use of american?[]

I noticed that you decided to use the spell check on your post after your first couple of entries. So why the change now?

Quote

"Speaking of which, the problem did not originate in the United States, the problem originated in the Internet". I wonder who invented the Internet?

You are right however, that this is not a problem that is unique to America. I just about have to run my little sisters emails through an online translator to decipher what they are saying, so I know its not unique to Americans. I just found it ironic, that an American would get so wound up by everyone else's use of the English language.[]

Watt is the point anyway? Wood you mined if I rote like this, but the spell cheque was run threw it and found no mistakes? [] Wood that make it write?[]

But hey, I am glad to see another American (or anyone ) say that they that dont have a gun. But I guess that's not to say you dont want one, can't afford one or dont support their use in resolving conflicts (this is exciting, maybe I should dig up the old gun debate post again to see how it ranks now that the Iraq war is over). Lesson learned there Wizeguy. Most is similar to saying the majority. We can't pretend to speak for everyone (politicians & board of directors excluded). They only need 51% of people agreeing & that is a majority. Who cares about what the other 49% have to say, they didn't win.

Edited by Mobius for maximum spell check devastation.[8D]
Good journeys all

Mobius[8]

[Jrd]

Chill out about the use of language on a online forum...were not all her to impress eachother with who can post the most intellectual and grammatically correct post..atleast Im not. I have found something like everyone else in here that I think is completly amazing (possibly the next step in the evolution of the mind) and if we are going to hinder peoples sharing of ideas because they now feel intimidaded to post them then that is negatively effecting us all. I am very clevor college student (despite my slap-dash post) and sometimes, like right now, i do not feel the need to act so intellgent and check every word i write. i just want to share with all of you and learn from all of you. So I think if its that much of a petty problem about run-on-sentences and such  then start by questioning the meaning of language in the first place.... i think its to share and profit from eachother.. and in that case the rules of grammar are caging  us in sort of speak in the ways we can express our ideas. I HATE RULES

[Tisha]

Hee hee!  You forgot Canada, Squeek!!!!!! []

Anyway,  THE 1st CARDINAL RULE OF WRITING:  CONSIDER YOUR AUDIENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This could be translated into:  BE CONSIDERATE OF YOUR AUDIENCE!!!!!!!!!!  And who, exactly, is the audience at Astrlpulse? The whole globe of English-speaking people!  People of any age, nationality, IQ, political affiliation, religion!  We have a lot of ground to cover.

English newspapers, knowing their audience, take great care to keep their communications to a clear, concise, 8th grade reading level, because they want to reach as many people as possible.  I suggest we try to do the same here. In fact, it is immature and self-centered to communicate in ways that put a burden on the reader.

Squeek, I think you'd enjoy these books by Karen Elizabeth Gordon:

The Deluxe Transitive Vampire
Torn Wings and Faux Pas: A Flashbook of Style, a Beastly Gide Through the Writer's Labryinth
The Disheveled Dictionary
The New Well-Tempered Sentence
The Ravenous Muse

I had the pleasure of "chatting" with my 11-year old daughter this week on the internet (she was writing from her school library), and she typed in the same annoying shorthand that other young folk do, using "k" for okay, etc.  Teachers have a difficult time convincing children that their essays need to be written in REAL english, not internet-chat-speak, because many kids don't even know the difference.  

Unfortunately, I think us old folk are going to lose this battle within a decade or two.  Soon, "k" will be in Webster's Dictionary, along with ROFL, IMHO, etc.  After all, McJob is already there!

(I guess I'll weigh in on the gun issue:  Where I live, I don't need one.  However, if I moved to a scarier place, whether a dangerous inner city, or a remote forest with large wild animals, I'd own the appropriate firearm for the situation, and I'd know how to use it.[}:)])

[Squeek]

I heard about McJob going into the dictionary, and that was the funniest thing I've heard since "phat" and "yadda yadda yadda" were added.

I want to attend one of these meetings where they vote on new words to be added...  That would be so cool.

Anyway, sorry I left out a few other contractions and other commonly confused words; the ones I listed were just the ones I've seen more of in recent days.  Of course those are valid as well.

I apologize to Canadians. [|)]

~Squeek