A word for the so called christians

[narfellus]

Being born, raised, and having followed christianity since i was a wee one, i feel pretty qualified to say that it has good intentions, but they've been buried under generations of misinterpretation and abuse. The Bible has FANTASTIC lessons from the Christ that show anyone in the world how to live regardless of religion, birthright, gender or color. Too bad that message has been butchered so badly. Thank God there are enough people who have been able to channel the Truth.

[aryanknight666]

quote:Being born, raised, and having followed christianity since i was a wee one, i feel pretty qualified to say that it has good intentions, but they've been buried under generations of misinterpretation and abuse.

Good intentions? Matt. 10:34-36, luke 12:51, Isaiah 13:9-16
Jesus said that he came to bring the sword, to destroy families and turn parents against their children, to turn nations against nations, to divide nations, to divide single races and to cause conflict. He said he would not have any pity on pregnant or nursing women when he came to take vengenace, and that people would watch their women being raped and their children being cut to peices before their eyes.

quote:The Bible has FANTASTIC lessons from the Christ that show anyone in the world how to live regardless of religion, birthright, gender or color. Too bad that message has been butchered so badly. Thank God there are enough people who have been able to channel the Truth.

I agree the message has been butchered so badly. People beleive jesus taught love, compassion and mercy. What a pity they beleive in such crap. Do you beleive that what is written in the bible is not the truth according to what you are saying? how then do you know what the "real" truth is?

"regardless of religion, birthright, gender or color"

Jesus taught only to jews, he did not teach to anyone else. He did not help non-jews. He reffered to non-jews as gentiles and (rabbid) dogs. Whenever a non-jew came to him for lessons or help, he degarded them by calling them dogs and chasing them away. Also how can the teacings of christ be for someone of any religion? He taught  he is the ONLY way to god, the only way through god is to him, anything else will get you thrown in the lake of fire. He critized people of other religions and their ways, and on the day of judgement he will cast people of all religions into the lake of fire.
As for "fantastic lessons on how to live", well;
If I were to follow christs example, I would not help people of my own race. I would tell them I am not here to help dogs.  matthew 10 5-6, Matthew 15:24, matthew 7:6, matthew 15:26, mark 7:26-27
I would not work to earn a living. I would leave it up to "god" to give me money. When jesus and his disciples were hungry, they simply stole whatever food they wanted.
Matthew 6:25-34, Matt. 12:1-2, Mark 2:23, Luke 6:1-2.
I would spend any extra change on myself instead of perhaps dropping it to the needy on the streets.
Mark 14:3-7. Mark 14:7
I would hate my family and disrespect my mother. Jesus treated his mother with disrespect, rudely calling her "woman" when he spoke
John 2:4, 19:26
I would not consider my bioligcal father to be my father. I would not call anyone on earth my father.
Matthew 23:9

There are alot of others but I dont feel like mentioning them all.

[Wronski Feint]

Its funny really, that if you look a christianity its sorta like magic. At the beginning of church you pray, which is called the Invocation. Then you pray to God to do things for you like wizards (or what have you)do with other gods.   I think magick is only wrong if you use it for evil or worship the devil.

[James S]

Thanks Wronski Feint. []
That's just what I was getting at.

Prayer & invocation - seems to meto be the same thing especially if it's for good purposes like healing, or bringing about something useful. But according to christian doctrine, it depends which side of the fence you're on as to whether it's good or evil!

I sometimes wonder what most christians think of one of the most important "rules" of whichcraft - "do what you will but harm none!" I wonder how much ministers in days gone by considered this rule as they were killing people accused of being witches.

- James.

[aryanknight666]

The reason why you see similarities between magic and christianity is because either victorian era ritual magick is based of christian rites or christianity ripped alot of its rites and rituals off ritual witchcraft.

You're missing the point Wronski, all other religions are meant to be worshipping of the devil - and all magick is meant to come from the devil. According to christianity ALL magick is evil. Thats what it means when it says "evil" - just that, something that "god" says is evil. Evil is in the eye of the beholder.
I think you will find worship of the devil to be very scarce.
Modern LaVeyan Satanists are for the most part athiests and don't beleive in satan as a real being.
Traditional Satanists beleive Satan to be a real being, but they do NOT call him "the devil" and do not think of themselves as "Devil Worshippers".
I personally am a traditional satanist. My soul is dedicated to satan, signed in blood.
Ave Satanas

[Palehorse]

quote:Originally posted by aryanknight666


Good intentions? Matt. 10:34-36, luke 12:51, Isaiah 13:9-16
Jesus said that he came to bring the sword, to destroy families and turn parents against their children, to turn nations against nations, to divide nations, to divide single races and to cause conflict. He said he would not have any pity on pregnant or nursing women when he came to take vengenace, and that people would watch their women being raped and their children being cut to peices before their eyes.

Context, context, context.  Jesus wasn't *aiming* to turn people against each other -- he was warning his followers that this was what would inevitably happen.  It's not really all that surprising -- once some Jews started embracing Christianity, the non-Christian Jews often reacted violently, sometimes even causing conflict within families.  This is what happens anytime you introduce a radical new ideology to conservative religious people.  It'd be a bit like having a modern fundamentalist Christian family where one member converted to LaVeyan Satanism.  Said member would likely be disowned or worse.

As for the bits about vengeance, the "end of the age," etc., you're again ripping this violently out of context.  All of these were predictions about the imminent Roman-Jewish war in 70AD.  His message consisted of warning anyone who would listen that the old order of things was about to be done away with, so get out while you still can and don't be swept up in the consequences.  There is evidence that the Christians in Jerusalem understood Jesus to mean exactly what I'm telling you he meant -- as soon as they saw the armies approaching, they fled into the mountains as per Jesus' explicit instructions.  This is recorded by the historian Eusebius.

Those who chose to stay brought about their own destruction; Jesus needn't have lifted a finger.  Ironically thinking that this was their "battle between light and darkness" in which the "coming" messiah would deliver victory, they slaughtered the Roman garrison stationed there, provoking them into all out war in 63AD.  By the year 70 (7 year tribulation ring a bell, anyone?) the walls fell, the temple was destroyed, the city razed to the ground, and all its inhabitants slaughtered, scattered or enslaved.

quote:
Jesus taught only to jews, he did not teach to anyone else. He did not help non-jews.

The message of the gospel writers and Paul is that the ideal was for Jesus to come for the Jews, and have them be the "light" to the rest of the world.  What exactly do you think Jesus would have meant to the average Pagan outside a Jewish context, if he didn't first have a strong foundation of Jewish followers?  

quote:
He reffered to non-jews as gentiles and (rabbid) dogs. Whenever a non-jew came to him for lessons or help, he degarded them by calling them dogs and chasing them away.

Chapter and verse, please.  For one, "Gentile" is not a derogatory term anymore than "Jewish" or "Christian" are.

Anyway, the only instance that comes to mind is the Greek woman in Matt 15.  Yes, he *did* call her a dog... but I have a theory that we're missing a lot by not knowing the tone of this conversation.  I get this impression by the fact that the woman is called a dog, yet strangely doesn't give up and storm off -- rather, she gives a persistent and rather witty reply.  My thought is that it's possible Jesus was being tongue-in-cheek when he called her a dog, as a way of poking fun at the senseless social prejudices of his fellow Jews, and the woman, who was in on the joke, gave him the answer he was looking for.  What's more, he didn't "chase her away" -- he replied that her strong faith had healed her daughter.

quote:
Also how can the teacings of christ be for someone of any religion? He taught  he is the ONLY way to god, the only way through god is to him, anything else will get you thrown in the lake of fire. He critized people of other religions and their ways, and on the day of judgement he will cast people of all religions into the lake of fire.

No.  To correct all the errors here would require an essay unto itself.  Fortunately, I've addressed all the misconceptions about hell and the lake of fire in an essay I wrote a few years ago, heh.  If you're interested, it's at http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/palehorse13x/hell.html

quote:
I would not work to earn a living. I would leave it up to "god" to give me money. When jesus and his disciples were hungry, they simply stole whatever food they wanted.
Matthew 6:25-34, Matt. 12:1-2, Mark 2:23, Luke 6:1-2.

And obviously no one minded, because no one accused them of stealing.  Ancient hospitality is funny that way.  However, they *were* accused of breaking the Sabbath, which was the whole point of what they did.  Jesus used it as an opportunity to point out that it was the spirit of the Sabbath, rather than the letter, that was important.

quote:
I would spend any extra change on myself instead of perhaps dropping it to the needy on the streets.
Mark 14:3-7. Mark 14:7

He was commending a woman who did a nice gesture for him.  As a guy who could cause food to multiply on demand, I think he was entitled to enjoy a rare bit of good hospitality himself.

quote:
I would hate my family and disrespect my mother. Jesus treated his mother with disrespect, rudely calling her "woman" when he spoke
John 2:4, 19:26

I've actually seen this a lot among ancient writers/speakers.  It appears to have just been a convention of their language, rather than being rude.

quote:
I would not consider my bioligcal father to be my father. I would not call anyone on earth my father.
Matthew 23:9

It has been said, and I agree, that Jesus was aiming to create a "family" structure that went beyond the accident of birth that is one's biological family.  He was trying to create a family of believers who embraced each other as such by choice, looked out for each other, and joined to serve the community as a whole.

That said, I simply take this verse as a command against giving any one person too much spiritual authority.

quote:
There are alot of others but I dont feel like mentioning them all.

Good, because I don't feel like refuting them all.  

[Palehorse]

quote:Originally posted by James S


I sometimes wonder what most christians think of one of the most important "rules" of whichcraft - "do what you will but harm none!" I wonder how much ministers in days gone by considered this rule as they were killing people accused of being witches.

Actually, this is only part of the Wiccan Rede, and Wicca has only been around for about fifty years.  As such, not all witches are bound by any such rule, and I've seen quite a few practitioners of witchcraft have a good hearty laugh at the expense of anyone who would suggest that witchcraft is all flowers and sunshine.  Even Wicca has its share of nastiness -- in its 161 laws, it condemns those who break any of said laws to "the hell of the Christians" (which just amuses the shyte out of me for some reason).

For those who killed *anyone* in the name of Christ, it'd be much more relevant to point out his own commands against violence of any sort.  Those who committed these acts were doing so completely against the teachings of Christ, and, in their lust for power and authority, often killed many other sincere Christians too.

[James S]

"Even Wicca has its share of nastiness -- in its 161 laws, it condemns those who break any of said laws to "the hell of the Christians" (which just amuses the shyte out of me for some reason)."

LOL!! me too! []
Kind of defeats the whole purpose doesn't it?[B)]

As a witch, I rarely refer to anything Wicca, as I'm not a Wiccan by the current sense of the Gardinarian religion "Wicca". I'm one of those out-of-date types that still refers to witchcraft in terms of ancient Celtic wise-craft. As I mentioned in another thread, the word "wicca" is Old English, pronounced "witcha" meaning "wise-one". But that's why I call my self a witch and not a wiccan.

All gets a bit pedantic doesn't it?

When I think of the phrase "do what you will but harm none", this phrase goes way way back. You're right though, there are enough covens out there practicing dark magic and such that have turned against the basic principles of wise-craft.

I consider that the three fold law, as well as a good dose of karma will catch up with them soon enough, as too with those christians that consider it the "will of God" to slaughter all those hethens, pagans and heretics. Man's laws are often subject to interpretation. The Universe's laws are another matter alltogether.

[]
James.

[thankful]

Palehorse,

Bravo on your article "To hell with hell".  These are my views also, I hope more Christians will "get it". I fear that too many are stuck in their traditions, though.  Too bad for the flack that Carlton Pearson is getting for believing the doctrine of all people being saved, eventually.  I think what we're really getting saved from is ourselves and the consequences of our own actions.  What a loving God!

What are your views on the bible condemning magick?  It seems to me that it is more condemning the dark side of it, and also idolatry.  Why would you need to consult other gods when you have the Most High God?  This is like consulting a private in the military when you have access to the General?  It is an insult. It makes sense to me that I should ask things of my Creator and not of a created being.  If I was the Creator I guess this would tinkle me off, too.  I'm just trying to make sense of it.

I have read that the word sorcerer in the bible, properly translated means poisoner.  So this would make sense.  Also, Daniel was a magician and practiced occult arts and this was not condemned.  I see Kabbalah all through the New Testament.  Paul talks about the "mysteries".  It amazes me how many people put down the Bible when it is one of the most spiritual books around.   I think they just haven't read it with spiritual eyes.   I actually feel energized and purified when I read it. Jesus said that the things he did, we could do too, and greater.
As a Christian and a searcher for truth and reality, as I've been reading a lot of metaphysical stuff, I keep saying "hey, that's in the bible, and that's in the bible".  The bible is full of paranormal stuff.  Visions, dreams, healings, prophecy, miracles, etc. etc. etc.  I've often wondered if on the day of Pentecost when the room they were in was shaken, if this was not really the vibrations you get before an OBE and the tongues of fire were not seen in the astral.  I've wondered if being filled with the Spirit is not really the Kundalini rising.  And as the Kundalini rises and the sidhis are manifest, is this not the gifts of the Spirit?  And love, peace patience and the other fruit of the Spirit, are these not the transformation that happens when the Kundalini rises?  Maybe the Essenes always wore white because they knew this was the best for their aura and were vegetarians because this freed up energy for spiritual pursuits.  One can go on and on.  Like maybe Jesus said "these (demons) don't come out except by prayer and fasting, is because these give the extra energy that is necessary for the healing/exorcism.  It may be different (christianized) terminology for the same thing(metaphysical). Jesus taught things to the 72 that he didn't teach to the masses.  He taught things to the 12 that he didn't teach the 72.  He then taught things to the 3 that he didn't to the 12.  And then there was John who laid his head on his breast and heard his very heart beat.  Meaning you can be as close to God as you wanna be, and if the teaching is hidden doesn't that mean occult?    I really believe Jesus came to show us the "Way" and not start a new religion.  If Jesus nailed our Karma to the cross then Wow that is Good News and that is awesome!!! Any thoughts?

Peace,
thankful

P.S. To any who may reply, let's have mature discussion, I'm very sensitive to being lamblasted.

[Palehorse]

quote:Originally posted by thankful


I think what we're really getting saved from is ourselves and the consequences of our own actions.  What a loving God!

Well said, and thanks for reading my essay.  Glad ye liked it.  []

quote:
What are your views on the bible condemning magick?

Well, I think it's deeply tied in with God's intentions with the ancient Israelites.  He was in the process of introducing Himself to a world in which the idea of Him (as a monotheistic, transcendent deity) was completely foreign.  As such, He needed to develop a following of people who were completely separate from their neighbors in mind, body and soul.  Magic at that time was deeply intertwined with Pagan ritual, and was thought to operate through the power of Pagan deities, so it's easy to see why it was so forcefully condemned.

It's interesting that the views I've been developing since I showed up here have actually given force to this argument.  Meaning, if you're the true, pre-existent creator, trying to reveal yourself to humanity, and you've got all these thought-form beings running around in the form of Sumerian, Babylonian, Assyrian deities, then what do you do?  You try to cut off their main source of energy: magic and ritual.

Does that mean magic is okay today?  Well, I think that's up to individual judgment, but it's a leap that I for one am not yet willing to make.  Though, I also have to say that the definition of "magic" is extremely blurred, probably due to our much greater body of knowledge de-mystifying much of the world around us.  Yesterday's magic is today's placebo, and probably tomorrow's useful tool.

quote:
Also, Daniel was a magician and practiced occult arts and this was not condemned.

Example?

quote:I see Kabbalah all through the New Testament.

Eh, as far as I know, Kabbalah was not developed as a body of Jewish mystical literature until a lot later.  I would say that if it is in there, it's only a product of the writers being Jewish, and thus practicing a distinctly Jewish-flavored mysticism.

quote:Paul talks about the "mysteries".  It amazes me how many people put down the Bible when it is one of the most spiritual books around.   I think they just haven't read it with spiritual eyes.

 

True, but now you're getting into theology, mysticism, miracles... all rather different from magic, IMO.  Note: you might disagree on the mention of miracles, but I see a fundamental different between the way Jesus worked miracles, and the way a witch might cast a spell.  The witch is attempting to manipulate energy for a specific effect.  Whereas, I believe Jesus simply had the power to inspire a person's innate ability to heal himself, as evidenced by his signature phrase "your faith has healed you, now go in peace." Another interesting example is in Mark 6:5 -- Jesus was in his own hometown, but "could do no miracle there" because of the people's lack of faith.

quote:
As a Christian and a searcher for truth and reality, as I've been reading a lot of metaphysical stuff, I keep saying "hey, that's in the bible, and that's in the bible".  The bible is full of paranormal stuff.  Visions, dreams, healings, prophecy, miracles, etc. etc. etc.

Indeed... that's why I don't understand the typical conservative evangelical Christian response to any mention of the paranormal.  However, I'm still not convinced that magic fits on that list, or that a Christian could use it while still being true to his religion.

 

quote:I've often wondered if on the day of Pentecost when the room they were in was shaken, if this was not really the vibrations you get before an OBE and the tongues of fire were not seen in the astral.

Hm, very interesting idea; hadn't thought of that before.  I had an experience myself a few weeks ago where it felt like the air mattress I was sleeping on was being forcefully shaken from side to side, but I'm pretty sure the sensation originated internally.  So, your idea isn't too big of a jump.

quote: I've wondered if being filled with the Spirit is not really the Kundalini rising.  And as the Kundalini rises and the sidhis are manifest, is this not the gifts of the Spirit?  And love, peace patience and the other fruit of the Spirit, are these not the transformation that happens when the Kundalini rises?

I only know what little I've read here about kundalini, but I'd have to disagree.  Being filled with the spirit is something portrayed as being initiated by God, whereas people have described spontaneous kundalini rising that really screwed them up physically and mentally.  Somehow I don't think God is accidentally dumping too much Spirit into people and causing them meltdowns, heh.


 

quote:Maybe the Essenes always wore white because they knew this was the best for their aura and were vegetarians because this freed up energy for spiritual pursuits.

Yeah, they're an interesting group, especially with their possible connections to James and John the Baptist.  I plan on learning as much as I can about them in the future.

quote:Meaning you can be as close to God as you wanna be, and if the teaching is hidden doesn't that mean occult?    I really believe Jesus came to show us the "Way" and not start a new religion.

Heh, I'm involved right now in a debate on another forum, with a guy who believes that mysticism, and anything hidden or having anything to do with the idea of gnosis, is completely anti-Christian.  I raised many of the same points you have... and he hasn't answered yet.  This should be fun.  :X

quote:
 If Jesus nailed our Karma to the cross then Wow that is Good News and that is awesome!!! Any thoughts?

I think you've raised some excellent points, and are really on to something with much of what you've said.

[thankful]

Hi Palehorse,

The reference about Daniel is in Daniel 5:11 where it says Daniel was "made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans and soothsayers".  This is probably because he was more skillled than the rest of them and so was put in charge of them.

Also, there is a reference to Joseph divining with his cup in Genesis 44:5.

Sometimes the bible says not to divine and then others times we see His people divining, like when the apostles drew lots to replace Judas as apostle.  This was a big decision, but they prayed and believed God would show his choice.  After this event, there is no reference to divining, probably because the Holy Spirit was given, but sometimes I wonder if it's O.K. in decisions in which you can't get a "word" from the Holy Spirit.  I know many Christians "throw out the fleece", this really isn't any different.

I just want to be a Berean like in the N.T. and find out what's really what and not accept the status quo, just because we were taught to accept certain things. Sometimes you really have to look at things with a whole new paradigm to get at the truth of something.

Have you ever heard of the Akashic records?  If it really contains the history of the world and every thought, event, etc.  then it should be possible to find out what's what once you're developed enough.  This is one of my goals.

Also about the Kabbalah, is means "received" and is an oral tradition that was handed down supposedly since Moses.  Things were just written down much later.  But if you read a few things about the Kabbalah, you can begin to see references to some of its beliefs in some of the things Jesus and Paul say.

I'm having the same experience in reading things about magick, I keep saying to myself "hey, that's in the bible, and that's in the bible."  I'm thinking that magick is a word that directs a force that people call chi, orgone, psi, mana, etc.  Some same the Hebrews call this force, ruach.  So is magick directing this force to accomplish your will?  Maybe it's just the negative aspect that God is against, like poisoning people, deceiving people, anything that hurts people.  Jesus was actually accused of being a magician when it was said that he casts out demons by the prince of demons.  This is what goetic magicians do.  I guess this is a form of high magick.  I'm not saying that he was a magician,  but as the son of
God certainly, he knows how the universe operates. Scripture takes on a different meaning when you really know the context and meaning behind the words.  There is so much to learn, and explore and learn I will!!!

As far as the kundalini,  the bible says that the Holy Spirit is like a refiner's fire and also that He transforms us, this seems to be the testimony of people with raised kundalini, they feel they are different people, feel they are being purified and get psychic gifts.  What if the bible just has different wording for things that are the same in other cultures?  Food for thought.

Do you have OBE's or are you doing the NEW exercies from this site?  You sound like you're a Christian that wants to find things out for himself.  Go Bro!

Shalom

[Anonymous]

quote:Originally posted by aryanknight666

The reason why you see similarities between magic and christianity is because either victorian era ritual magick is based of christian rites or christianity ripped alot of its rites and rituals off ritual witchcraft.

You're missing the point Wronski, all other religions are meant to be worshipping of the devil - and all magick is meant to come from the devil. According to christianity ALL magick is evil. Thats what it means when it says "evil" - just that, something that "god" says is evil. Evil is in the eye of the beholder.
I think you will find worship of the devil to be very scarce.
Modern LaVeyan Satanists are for the most part athiests and don't beleive in satan as a real being.
Traditional Satanists beleive Satan to be a real being, but they do NOT call him "the devil" and do not think of themselves as "Devil Worshippers".
I personally am a traditional satanist. My soul is dedicated to satan, signed in blood.
Ave Satanas

Hi, just out of curiosity, why did you choose to dedicate your soul to Satan?  Who is Satan exactly to you, and who exactly do you believe the Christian Trinity is?  I'm curious, as I've never actually talked to a real Satanist before.

[Rastus]

I won't even comment on how to go down the dark path (my phrase for ways to find out just what real terror and fear is all about).  Why?  Because it's a one way journey, and the point of no return is very close to the starting point.  I will not risk Karma by pointing someone in the direction, even in the guises of how "not to".

James S:  Interesting comment.  I am guility of using "Wiccan" and "Witch" interchangeably.  I know it's not the same thing.  Even say "Wiccan" isn't universal, since the US Wiccan church probably has much different views than the one in Britian.  I suppose saying "Witch" is like saying "Christaian", in that Christian implies Catholics, Espiciapalinas, Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists, Unitatians, Greek Othodox, and even Mormons.  Talk about no 2 groups agreeing on anything!!!  So it is also true of sects of Witches?

Time and again I keep making this mistake.  I'll wait for the Karma bill in the mail []

For what it's worth:  Christians always bad mouth the competition.  Every religion does, how else are you going to get converts?  There magic is "evil" and ours is "good" is carved in stone in every religious playbook (with a few exceptions, but we aren't going there).  And of course most of you aren't synical enough to understand power politics.  Why is magic "bad"?  Because Adepts can impersonate "higher powers", thus they can influence people from a religious context.  Having recently surfaced from severe depression, I absolutely shudder at the thought of having no morals and being adept!  Talk about wreaking havoc [V]

[aryanknight666]

quote:I won't even comment on how to go down the dark path (my phrase for ways to find out just what real terror and fear is all about). Why? Because it's a one way journey, and the point of no return is very close to the starting point. I will not risk Karma by pointing someone in the direction, even in the guises of how "not to".

Do you even know what karma is?

What is my perception of Satan?
He is the lord of this earth, the creator of mankind, the true God of humanity.
How do I perceive the trinity?
There is no one, monotheistic "God". This is a deception, there are in fact many gods that make up "YHWH", although on of them is probably called jehova. As for "jesus"? He most probably did not exist. Either he did not exist at all, or he was in fact just a normal man. If the nazarene did in fact exist as he is detailed, he is an alien-human hybrid. I guess this also might provide some insight into how I think of the nazarene:
"Behold the crucifex, what do you see? pallid incompetence hanging from a tree".
JHVH and his angels are psychic feinds, when a christian dies, he is simply procesed into a soul factory. Angels also feed off mages who are stupid enough to stick with them, and also normal christians.
JHVH and his angels are concerned with the destruction of humanity, which they will attempt on the so called "day of judgement".
However, Satan is in love with humanity and he will come back and personally rip a new arsehole for this pathetic excuse for a "God".
Satan was also the sumerian diety "Enki" and the egyptian diety "Ptah". The pagan gods astaroh/ishtar,inana, beelzebub/baal, and many others are what have been branded as so called "demons". They are in fact the true and original Gods of humanity.

[Palehorse]

quote:Originally posted by thankful

Hi Palehorse,

The reference about Daniel is in Daniel 5:11 where it says Daniel was "made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans and soothsayers".  This is probably because he was more skillled than the rest of them and so was put in charge of them.

Ah... yeah, but Daniel himself is only portrayed as interpreting dreams, posessing wisdom and such, not necessarily practicing magic himself.  Also, I'd imagine when you're a Hebrew living in Babylonian exile, and the king offers you the third highest position in the empire, you take it without asking questions... especially when your failure to do so would probably win you a trip to the executioner.  Heh.

quote:
Sometimes the bible says not to divine and then others times we see His people divining, like when the apostles drew lots to replace Judas as apostle.  This was a big decision, but they prayed and believed God would show his choice.  After this event, there is no reference to divining, probably because the Holy Spirit was given, but sometimes I wonder if it's O.K. in decisions in which you can't get a "word" from the Holy Spirit.  I know many Christians "throw out the fleece", this really isn't any different.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that while we've been having this conversation.  There's definitely a lot of this sort of thing throughout the Bible, which makes for a lot of grey area that most Christians don't seem willing to acknowledge.  In particular, there seems to be a lot of things condemned in the OT, that in reality was simply a case of writings by the northern and southern kingdoms taking cheapshots at each other's customs and religious practices in the name of God.  (At this point I must plug the great book "Who Wrote the Bible? by Richard Friedman, which is where I'm getting most of this info.)

quote:
I just want to be a Berean like in the N.T. and find out what's really what and not accept the status quo, just because we were taught to accept certain things. Sometimes you really have to look at things with a whole new paradigm to get at the truth of something.

Absolutely.  For this reason, I predict that whatever form the Christianity of 100 years from now takes, the next big movement will take place outside the mainstream institutional churches.  They're set up in such a way that by definition encourages spiritual stagnance and passivity, and I think we're already seeing signs that the human need for true spirituality won't settle for that anymore.

quote:
Have you ever heard of the Akashic records?  If it really contains the history of the world and every thought, event, etc.  then it should be possible to find out what's what once you're developed enough.  This is one of my goals.

Yes I have, and that's one of the big reasons for my interest in this too.  I would LOVE to take a peek back at 1st century Palestine and get a lot of questions answered, assuming it's possible.  Another possibility that both excites me and freaks me out a little bit -- if time is non-linear, and assuming Jesus was as spiritually adept as we think he was -- would he be able to see me when I went back for a visit?  Now *there's* one to wrap your mind around, heh.  

Y'know what though, one thing I was worried about was that since the astral is said to be so subjective and malleable, and there's SO much interpretation, bias and vested interests surrounding the life of Jesus, was how hard it might be to find out any truly objective facts.  Even if I did pull it off, I think I'd probably doubt myself and wonder if my subconscious simply made the whole thing up.

quote:
I'm having the same experience in reading things about magick, I keep saying to myself "hey, that's in the bible, and that's in the bible."  I'm thinking that magick is a word that directs a force that people call chi, orgone, psi, mana, etc.  Some same the Hebrews call this force, ruach.  So is magick directing this force to accomplish your will?

I think it very well could be, but I also think that's probably why it was forbidden.  For most of us, having the power to get what we want on demand could be pretty disasterous.  That's why it's said "seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness, THEN all these things shall be added unto you."  

quote:
There is so much to learn, and explore and learn I will!!!

Indeed there is.  And it definitely sounds like you're on the right track.

quote:
As far as the kundalini,  the bible says that the Holy Spirit is like a refiner's fire and also that He transforms us, this seems to be the testimony of people with raised kundalini, they feel they are different people, feel they are being purified and get psychic gifts.

I agree that the after-effects and the imagery associated with the infilling of the Holy Spirit, and Kundalini raising, are very similar.  However, I still see big differences between how the events themselves are portrayed.  With the HS, it always seems to be a voluntary thing, and I've never heard any negative effects reported.  With the Kundalini, there are reports of spontaneous and premature raisings that the body can't handle, which are said to cause serious damage.  In light of that, I'm really not sure if the two concepts can be reconciled.  If the HS is a manifestation of God, then I don't know why God would fill someone in this way if He knew they couldn't handle it, and would suffer actual damage.

quote:
 What if the bible just has different wording for things that are the same in other cultures?  Food for thought.

Yeah, the above nonwithstanding, I do think there's a lot of that in there.  There's a ton of material in the prophets, and from the apostles for instance, that sounds suspiciously like AP and related phenomena.

quote:
Do you have OBE's or are you doing the NEW exercies from this site?  You sound like you're a Christian that wants to find things out for himself.  Go Bro!

I've never had an actual OBE myself, but I believe I've come very close.  For as long as I can remember I've had the occasional instance of sleep paralysis, a few lucid dreams, and some other odd experiences, some of which I described in this thread: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13368.  I originally came here out of a desire to further explore things I was already experiencing spontaneously.  I've been experimenting a bit with NEW since I read Astral Dynamics a few months ago, but I've been pretty inconsistent with it.

You're right though -- I'm a Christian, but one who questions everything and isn't willing to take anyone's word for it.  My belief system is based about half on trying to figure out and implement what was originally believed and practiced by the 1st century Church, and half on trying to find Truth out for myself via firsthand experience.  This is why I'm majoring in religion and hopefully making a career out of it -- I figure any other career would divert my time and attention away from my search for truth, whereas this one would allow me to simultaneously satisfy both my hunger for knowledge and my need to make a living.  And, as for firsthand experience, that's why I'm so interested in AP.

[Palehorse]

quote:
What is my perception of Satan?
He is the lord of this earth, the creator of mankind, the true God of humanity.

On what do you base your perception?

quote:there are in fact many gods that make up "YHWH", although on of them is probably called jehova.

Actually, "Jehovah" is simply an anglicized version of YHWH... they just changed the Hebrew letters to their closest English equivalents, and added some vowels.  Same with Jesus, whose Hebrew name was Yeshua.

quote:
As for "jesus"? He most probably did not exist. Either he did not exist at all, or he was in fact just a normal man.

I think I find your first claim even more extraordinary than the claim that a man rose from the dead.  How do you explain all the accounts of his life that were circulating towards the middle of the 1st century?  What would be the motive for making the whole story up, especially since professing it could often get one tortured and killed in horribly nasty ways?  If he was a normal man, then how did he manage to alter the course of history, while all the other numerous would-be messiahs during that period quickly faded into obscurity?  If he didn't rise from the dead, then presumably his many opponents could have easily produced a body and ended the whole movement before it started -- why did this not happen?  How do you explain the sudden change in his followers, from a depressed and sorry bunch who had just lost their leader, to a devoted group with a purpose, ready to die for their beliefs, who swept across the Roman empire relatively quickly?

quote:
JHVH and his angels are psychic feinds, when a christian dies, he is simply procesed into a soul factory. Angels also feed off mages who are stupid enough to stick with them, and also normal christians.
JHVH and his angels are concerned with the destruction of humanity, which they will attempt on the so called "day of judgement".
However, Satan is in love with humanity and he will come back and personally rip a new arsehole for this pathetic excuse for a "God".
Satan was also the sumerian diety "Enki" and the egyptian diety "Ptah". The pagan gods astaroh/ishtar,inana, beelzebub/baal, and many others are what have been branded as so called "demons". They are in fact the true and original Gods of humanity.

What is your source for all this information?

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the scholarly questions, Palehorse.  I was going to say it is easier to believe Catholic dogma than what aryanknight just said, as he hasn't provided background for it.

[LordoftheBunnies]

LOL Runlola. []

The Jesus Action Figure, now at Wal-Mart!  Turns water to wine and erases your sins!  Comes with a life-size cross.

[aryanknight666]

If anyone wants to talk to me any further about this for now;
my aim screenname is shunkan shu
my email adress for msn is drunken_dragon_fist@hotmail.com.
I'll make a post later.
On what I base my perception is mainly first hand experience and communications with demons.
You might want to take a look at www.joyofsatan.com

[Anonymous]

Communication with demons?  Wow.  That's a braver step than I would take, what with demonic possession being a very probable after-effect.

[aryanknight666]

Demons can not posses a human, their bio-electricty is so great it would incinerate the comparitably frail human body.
So called "demonic possesion" is either a base level spirit or a purely psychological phenomenon. Angels also have a bad habit of possesing people to try and enforce the right hand path and scare people away from the truth.
Its such a shame everyone has been so brainwashed and had all this RHP crap about Demons crammed down their throats, as Demons are the true and original Gods of Humanity.

[James S]

You know Aryanknight666, I'm beginning to see your version of Satanism as being like radical feminism. You know, the "womyn" that have become just like the men they hate so much?

All I see on both sides of the fence are the same kind of people with the same type of preaching, intolerance and narrow-mindedness. "My God is better then your God" and all that.

Please stop using this forum as a venue for your preaching. I'll say the same thing to you as I say to christians who try this on - evangelism of any religion will not be tolerated here.

Speak about topics from your point of view, sure. You're perfectly welcome to do that, and you do come up with some good points from time to time, but you're also spouting a lot of dogma.

Please leave the preaching and religion bashing behind. It's not welcome here.

Regards,
James.

[Anonymous]

Indeed, one can easily see that aryanknight belongs to a way of thought that does not exist on its own, but seeks the exact opposite of Judeo-Christianity.

Moderator, how does one cross the line from talking about their own truths into "evangelizing".  What does it mean to evangelize?  

A true Christian would know that Jesus preached a Gospel of love, and that telling someone that "my God is better than your god" would be a low form of evengelization.  Wasn't it St. Francis Assisi that said, "Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words."?

Truth is non-moral, and we should be able to easily recognize it.  For example, those who claim to know Truth and get into little, childish arguments are defeating themselves.  Evangelization and rhetoric is best left to the politicians and those who seek to proselytize.  Authentic Christianity is about so many things, humility certainly not least of all.  Why not try some Socratic dialetic?

[James S]

Hi Antonius, welcome to the forums. []

Basically what we see as evangelising here is people either trying to "recruit" others to their religion or belief, or people who push their religion as being the one and only way, and continually put down other beliefs. This shows complete disrespect or ignorance for the beliefs of others.

Speaking of your own truths is fine. This can be quite easily done in a course of a conversation where there is no agressive preaching, but rather just saying it as you see it.  

Kind regards,
James.

[Jonathan]

Hello All,

aryanknight666 wrote:

quote:JHVH and his angels are psychic feinds, when a christian dies, he is simply procesed into a soul factory. Angels also feed off mages who are stupid enough to stick with them, and also normal christians.
JHVH and his angels are concerned with the destruction of humanity, which they will attempt on the so called "day of judgement".
However, Satan is in love with humanity and he will come back and personally rip a new arsehole for this pathetic excuse for a "God".

You're christian bro, you just flipped the names[]