I spotted this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-24509/Near-death-patients-afterlife.html
This is the best near-death/obe study I have ever read.
It's actually a large multi centre study and will be reporting in much greater detail I would hope quite soon. They placed cards on a shelf above the patients, the cards being visible only if the patient was floating near the ceiling. Parnia was hoping to have at least a few positive card IDs, but I don't think they had any positive IDs. This isn't too surprising with the small numbers involved (4 NDEs), but is disappointing.
Never the less, I believe all the patients were monitored so it could be established that brain "death" was present. Patients were interviewed, and their narratives compared with what actually happened in the theatre (I believe) . A prime objective, with the monitoring and the interviews is to establish whether the patient was conscious and lucid at the time of brain death. The Mail's article implies that this might have been established. We have to wait for the full report (and the book!).
Sam Parnia has been discussed hear before . I thought for his study he should put a Barbie, g.i. Joe doll , or gumby , in a box on a high shelf in the operating room , instead of a card . Its not some thing normaly in an operating room , and easy to remember .
This article actually was published in 2001. However, the Aware study, which I thought it referred to, is due to report this month. When I first found the article it seemed to have a recent date on it but I managed to research the article and get it's real date. We have been waiting years for the Aware study results. Hope they report soon.
Quote from: desert-rat on September 13, 2013, 20:55:32
Sam Parnia has been discussed hear before . I thought for his study he should put a Barbie, g.i. Joe doll , or gumby , in a box on a high shelf in the operating room , instead of a card . Its not some thing normaly in an operating room , and easy to remember .
You're quite correct, the chances of someone floating above his body noticing something as ordinary as a card, during such an extraordinary experience, is slim.
http://www.horizonresearch.org/main_page.php?cat_id=279
"At this time, they anticipate being able to release the preliminary results obtained during the first five years of the study in September or October 2013 to mark the fifth anniversary of the launch of the study."
Where are the results?? I guess they have nothing really special. However they should have been released these results already..
Yeah, I'm still waiting too... it's annoying.
I have many years experience in OBEs and did a lot of experiments in terms of verification. First I thought it must be real, because it looks so real. But everyone who do this for a longer time comes to the result: its all in your mind.
There are many crazy stories around the world about obe, near death experiences. Someone will say, why should all these people lie?
But you must realize, there are also many storys about ufos, nessie, big food and so on. People can lie on themselve. And sometimes, they lie for money and a little bit attention. So go to bed, start an obe and make your own experience and do not read so much stories.
I hope this study will be serious and give us the results so that esoteric people can change their perception about obe s. I love this phenomenon, but reading all this bovine excrement from some esoteric people on the internet disturbes me.
To Ofen , I think you meant big foot , but big food is ok too. On big foot I have this idea that he shape shifting humans playing big foot . That is why you never find and bodies , or bones .
http://www.bfro.net/
http://www.goldencorral.com/locator/
http://www.panchos.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin-walker
The big foot thing seems kind of mysterious. But there was a recent study that came out with DNA humanoid type creature that paraphrased proposed some type of big foot as it's origin. And it was published in a mainstream journal. So it was well done. I think this is some good indication that we need to look more. But not necessarily that there are big foots around out there.
Not intending to derail a Sam Parnia thread . On big foot , he/she is worthy of a thread of his/her own . I have started a few on other forums . One idea of mine is that there are a few humans that know how to shape shift in to a big foot . Kind of like the cival war re in actors . For a few days they play the role of a big foot . Then go back to a human . Just an idea of mine , who knows .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_shifting
Quote from: Ofen on November 04, 2013, 18:13:41
I have many years experience in OBEs and did a lot of experiments in terms of verification. First I thought it must be real, because it looks so real. But everyone who do this for a longer time comes to the result: its all in your mind.
There are many crazy stories around the world about obe, near death experiences. Someone will say, why should all these people lie?
But you must realize, there are also many storys about ufos, nessie, big food and so on. People can lie on themselve. And sometimes, they lie for money and a little bit attention. So go to bed, start an obe and make your own experience and do not read so much stories.
I hope this study will be serious and give us the results so that esoteric people can change their perception about obe s. I love this phenomenon, but reading all this bovine excrement from some esoteric people on the internet disturbes me.
I guess it's fair to say that I disagree with most of what you said.
Much of the phenomenon can be explained and attributed to the physical body yet there is much that can't. You seem to think that what can't be physically explained must be a lie (I assume because you haven't had the same experience and if you did, you were able to rationalize it away).
My introduction to this phenomenon was spontaneous and not welcomed. For years I was able to rationalize much of it away but just as soon as I did, another experience would occur that was not easily explained (not with my old frame of mind anyhow).
In the end, it only matters to the individual and no one else. :-)
To ofen , you might want to watch some of the N.D.E. videos on you tube . In Robert Monroe's first book he wrote about visiting people he knew while out of body , and asking them later if they were doing what he saw them doing . There is a story of a British m.p. that appeared before Parlament to cast his vote in his astral body even tho. his phy. body was sick in bed from the late 1800s or early 1900s . A lady had an N.D.E. where she saw a pair of shews , a few days a janitor found them . You can try telling these people that it is all in there head .
Dr. Albert Taylor was on Art Bell's new show Dark Matters on Nov 2/2013. He was talking about his earlier APs that started when he was young boy and how later on his in his life he found ways to verify them as "real" to himself. Dr. Albert Taylor is a acclaimed Scientist who works for NASA and various other organizations/agencies. He talked about NDE's and his current research with them as well. I really enjoyed the first part of this interview. At first he had a lot of doubt lot of doubt in what he was doing, so he decided to do his own experimenting with the phenomenon and because of his position in Science, he was very reluctant in saying anything to anyone about this, especially his colleagues .
In the second part of the interview he spoke about his research into the Paranormal and Ghosts as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6Xl9a7qMAY
@ desert As I already said, these are all just stories. I cannot understand you, you can experience your own OBE one hundred of times and proof to yourselve if its real.
I guess you never had experienced such incredible stories like these people in the magazins or monroe. Why you believe these people? They could write these experiences just for money! If an autor writes a book or an article about his experiences in OBE where he writes, that nothing is magical about obes, that all is just in your mind like a dream and that is his opinion, nobody would read this.
And why are so many people so naive, thinking that if someone who experienced an OBE or near dead experience, that this person must be a good person who could never lie?
Quote from: Ofen on November 05, 2013, 15:26:02
@ desert As I already said, these are all just stories. I cannot understand you, you can experience your own OBE one hundred of times and proof to yourselve if its real.
I guess you never had experienced such incredible stories like these people in the magazins or monroe. Why you believe these people? They could write these experiences just for money! If an autor writes a book or an article about his experiences in OBE where he writes, that nothing is magical about obes, that all is just in your mind like a dream and that is his opinion, nobody would read this.
And why are so many people so naive, thinking that if someone who experienced an OBE or near dead experience, that this person must be a good person who could never lie?
I guess in the end, the only proof that will be good enough for you is the proof you can find yourself! :-)
This is true for all of us! :wink:
Quote from: Ofen on November 05, 2013, 15:26:02
And why are so many people so naive, thinking that if someone who experienced an OBE or near dead experience, that this person must be a good person who could never lie?
calling them liars is the last resort for many skeptics when all their arguments fail (which they mostly do), it is highly illogical too...
btw, if you're interested in validations check this link out and read it thoroughly, of course, they all might just be liars. :wink:
http://da-lai.lima-city.de/OBE/index.html
Seriously, I've had my own validation(s) of different kinds, some more direct, some more indirect, and so had many here. I / we don't lie! :x
Moreover, lots of validations you can gather from literature on Remote Viewing and NDE literature too. None of them is lying either, how dare we judge?
And btw: nobody says it's a piece of cake, it is not easy to prove, because this physical reality is the default mode not easy to overcome for our consciousness, getting validations while acting from the viewpoint of another "plane" (e.g. "Astral") in another state of consciousness but gathering data for this same physical reality is a feat not easy to master (but it IS possible)
Sorry, but "liars" ... that's the most ridiculous thing I've read here so far. :|
What I want to say is, that most of them are lying to themselves.
I had also some stories where some of you would think that this is a real evidence. For example I started an obe where I was flying to my brothers house (I live in another town). There I went to the fridge because I wanted to eat something. In the upper shelfs there were a lot of bottles of beer.
Normally there is no beer in the fridge, because my brother usually dont put them into the fridge. But there was something I was more surprised: in the bottom shelf there was a single bottle of coke. I was really wondering why there is a coke there. Because my brother don't drink coke. I drinked the coke, taste was good :)
After 2 month of this experience I visited him. And as I opened the fridge, there was this coke and I remembered sawing this coke in my OBE. Apparently he changed his drinking behaviour. He buy almost every day a coke and put them into the bottom shelft of the fridge.
So this could be a good story for evidence, BUT I dont want to lie to myselve. I remembered hardly when I saw my brother before this OBE experience and could it possible that he drunk coke before and I also saw it? And yes I remembered there was one time where he buyed a coke before my OBE experience.
Yeah, do not underestimate your mind! You can forget things and see them in your OBE again and there it could be new to you but you saw it already.
So whats your story?
There's so much on the net written by those who have little or no experience. They read books and repeat the words without ever experiencing it for themselves. That makes lots of stories that are half truths.
@ ofen, Some of us on this site have real experiences that come true. There's a time delay before the event so nothing is a reminder of anything that already exists. Your coke experience is far too common to be used. Millions of people drink coke so forget it. You've got to look at something far bigger and it must be a single happening. This is not inside your head at all or some misguided imagination. Close your physical eyes and see whats real.
Ofen you sound a bit like James Randi in the you tube video that I am posting a link to . In another you tube video a guy is stating there will be a time when Randi is a ghost and he is still saying that there are no ghosts .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NwKkbd2e-c
Yeah there should be some people with their OWN true experience. But where are they? Most of the people only tell stories of other peoples who write about other peoples who experienced something unusual. And then there are so many peoples who read esoteric books about OBE, that their experience about OBE is distorted and they believe in everything ( ghosts, angels, dead people flying around). They should not follow these ridiculous theories, this does not help to clearly understood this phenomenon.
There are too much theories out there, the best explanation is still that it is all in your mind. Because your mind has the power to create these worlds. If you can get informations through obe then in evolution these people would survive at the best and everyone would do an obe. But actually only some people do this and they have no advantages to those who dont because its all imagination and just for fun.
I hope the aware results bring some esoteric people back to reality.
ps: I am not Randi, I am Ofen
I only stated that you sound like James Randi . I have yet to a.p. myself , but I have had some dreams that I am sure were from being out of body . I willed my self to give my phone # to any one that I might meet while out of body during sleep . This is a post I made on it ,on another forum .
http://halfway.oceanfalls.org/index.php?topic=2656.0
I made refference to Robert Monroe in some of my posts but I dont know if ever one hear know who he was , he left the phy. for the astral in 95.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Monroe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4_-PDqQ9bM
If any one hear does not know who Sam Parnia is ,I will post the wiki. This thread started out on his research . There is more info on the net that is easy to find .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Parnia
QuoteBut everyone who do this for a longer time comes to the result: its all in your mind.
Not everyone. This is the kind of sweeping statement that always makes me cringe.
"Always". Was on purpose.
Who is this "everyone", lol? :? All the famous authors and others I know that AP have never come to the conclusion "it's all in your mind".
I don't state my own experiences here, because #1 They occur so frequently, that there wouldn't be any more room on this Forum for yours any other member's comments anymore, lol and #2. I don't want you to have MY experience, I want you to have your OWN.
If everyone here was to write down every experience they have, LD/AP (whatever you want to call it), then there would be many people here trying to look for these things while they are in the Non Physical Realm/Reality or even duplicate them. Since this is a personal journey, why would others need to see what you did or experience what you do?
The funny thing here is that you have had a successful NPR event and you still are questioning it, lol. I guess you need to do some more experimenting before you come to your own rational conclusion.
Many people come here to this Forum to learn this practice. Many of them have been trying for months, some years and yet they still believe and have the will to keep trying. You should count your blessings! :wink:
"All the famous Autors..habe never come to the conclusion 'its all in your mind"
As i said already, no one would read books about this phenomenon if the Autor says its
All in your mind. This book would be boring and no one would buy it.
With OBE there is a market of esotheric freaks who needs new stuff and magical stories.
Monroe knew how to sell and he made a business of this phenomenon. He is like Uri Geller.
Quote from: Ofen on November 05, 2013, 19:08:48ps: I am not Randi, I am Ofen
... but are you related in any way? :-D
Seriously, it is a tedious discussion we had here before with other posters of the usual Randi disciple kind. You show what most superstitious skeptics show and that is
cognitive dissonance. Here's a good article:
"Perpetual Denial of Evidence and Cognitive Dissonance"http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/evidence.php
Proof of your cognitive dissonance is that you did not even bother to read my link, true? Here it is again, and it is just a collection from
a few websites only:
http://da-lai.lima-city.de/OBE/index.htmlThere you also find explanation for what you and everyone of us experiences and what is called "reality fluctuation". Which is why on the "astral plane" not everything is as in the physical because your thoughts and other "higher" realities intermingle with data you receive from the physical. Still you can get verifications when you FOCUS on the data from the physical and ignore or accept other "reality fluctuations". It is naive to expect everything to be like in the physical because you are not "entirely" in the physical then. It's because in your "astral body" you get data from different layers/planes of reality (realities!), including your own thought forms, therefore you have to kind of "sort it out" for yourself - Simple as that!
So you must please rather
ask yourself:
Why didn't I focus on verifiable data and check on it afterwards instead of the (even instantaneously obvious) "mistakes".Instead you only focus on the thought forms / reality fluctuations in order to save your world-view to explain everything away. So next time: try again and please concentrate on data that you can possibly verify and do not expect to be everything like in the phycial or do not let yourself be distracted by fluctuations. These happen (not necessarily but they do).
I recommend you should also revise your view of reality and perception of reality which is a very backward reductionist one. You should also not succumb to the brainwash (in the media and mainstream science) that we undergo from materialist philosophies and pseudo-skepticism.
Here's a good book to not fall into the trap of pseudo-skepticism which is just another religion:
Robert McLuhan - "RANDI'S PRIZE: What sceptics say about the paranormal, why they are wrong and why it matters""http://www.amazon.com/RANDIS-PRIZE-sceptics-paranormal-matters/dp/1848764944/
I highly recommend it. :-)
Regarding NDEs there is one example of Susan Blackmore, another "skeptic", who manages even to explain away an NDE where the patient flew through the ceiling out of the clinic and saw a tennis shoe on the roof of the hospital, which was then later found by one of the staff indeed. She does not really explain it away but finds a "way out" by sidetracking and beating about the bush until her readers actually have forgotten the original story (which is by no way debunked) after all. The same here with you.
Moreover, Remote Viewing has been proven in the laboratory (e.g. by the Pear Labs) by scientists (!) over and over again beyond doubt. The statistics is undeniable. It IS possible go get verifiable data. Don't fall into the pseudo-skeptic trap or into the traps of any materialist superstition.
And to get on-topic again, one last comment (and then I'm out of here because it makes no sense discussing skeptic superstition over and over again...) on the Parnia study:
It has been said before here or elsewhere that if not enough 'clear' verifications (or none!) result it does not (dis)prove anything. Reading a number sign in a surgery would be the last thing you think of when you undergo an emergency / cardiac arrest / NDE etc. So again, it's all about a skeptic self-delusion, nothing else (which your "brothers in the faith" from the Randi.org-Forum seemingly suffer from).
(http://www.near-death.com/images/graphics/hospital/veridical%20operation%20cartoon/you_are_dead.jpg)
:wink:
Some think that we , our consciousness , is just left over energy on the serfice of a black hole . Our reality is just an illusion , so who knows .
Quote from: Ofen on November 06, 2013, 05:03:00
"All the famous Autors..habe never come to the conclusion 'its all in your mind"
As i said already, no one would read books about this phenomenon if the Autor says its
All in your mind. This book would be boring and no one would buy it.
With OBE there is a market of esotheric freaks who needs new stuff and magical stories.
Monroe knew how to sell and he made a business of this phenomenon. He is like Uri Geller.
I know at least one author (Anthony Peake) that says it's all in your mind- all of it- and his book is not boring, and it has sold well, IMO. I, an 'esoteric freak' highly recommend it. In fact, you should buy it, read it, and get back to me about it.
So many opinions.....
Quote from: CFTraveler on November 06, 2013, 20:39:29
So many opinions.....
Yes, but in the end, the only opinion that really matters, is the one you prove to yourself to be true! :wink:
How is this book from Anthony peake called which u have recommended? I want to read t.
I see a number of books written by Anthony Peake listed on Amazon . One is on a.p. ,the others I see are all med. phy. books .
http://www.amazon.com/The-Out---Body-Experience-History-ebook/dp/B00FIMWB34/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1383870802&sr=8-10&keywords=anthony+peake
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=anthony%20peake&sprefix=anthony+pea%2Caps&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aanthony%20peake
http://www.amazon.com/The-Out---Body-Experience-History-ebook/dp/B00FIMWB34/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1383870802&sr=8-10&keywords=anthony+peake
That's the one.
:-D Thanks for that reference on James Randi pretty interesting guy, on a side note I was watching how he exposed James Hydrick and now years later how he is trying to get out of a mental hospital. I remember how he fooled a whole country and was on the spotlight for a short time. So sad how society failed him and how he out smarted everyone.
Ofen, You are like a ray of golden sunshine after a long and hard winter. Finally someone has come to spread the light on us ignorant folks who just don't know any better.
Better yet, you are to us what the Russian Army was when they were driving the Nazi's back west. Every bomb or shell that exploded just a single kilometer closer to the concentration camps gave those poor souls the ability to hope once again since they knew their liberation was soon at hand.
For no one here knew that their was another possible explanation: It's all in our heads. Your theory that if if was trur, then the people who access to all this information would have some huge advantage over those that don't...What are you talking about? :?
Please don't lose all your credibility by saying, "Well if you can project, than you can get the Lotto Numbers." Or maybe you were referring to those of us who can throw soccer size balls of flames at our enemies.
The only advantage we have over anyone us our previous self. I am not in the business of calling people liars unless I am speaking to one. It's a shame that you may have had a few incredible dreams and stopped short at thinking , "Wow. I'm a smart guy and I have finally had an OOBE. Now can I can report back that it is all in our heads and we can get back to the important stuff, like who is gonna win this years VMA's Award.
Ofen, Anybody can do this and with time, they will eventually prove it real to themselves if they maintain an open mind.
Your coca-cola story where you saw your brother drink a coke one time explains exactly how you would of had a dream in which you saw he had more cokes in the exact same place in his fridge where you saw them at in your dreams. That could have been a minor validation in our book but not the jaw dropping type that many of us have had on more than one occasion.
But hopefully this report will just bring us back to your reality where we are all equal until we are not.
ok, you have a better story than mine? I know u can only prove to yourselve. I am curious what it could be, I want to listen about your experience. And dont cite any spiritual autors, share with me your own experience.
If this story is good, I will tell you another story, an self-experiment I did for myselfe two times on OBE. Since then I know the power of your mind and its limitation. Since these experiments I know it is all in your mind.
Quote from: Ofen on November 13, 2013, 18:43:25
ok, you have a better story than mine? I know u can only prove to yourselve. I am curious what it could be, I want to listen about your experience. And dont cite any spiritual autors, share with me your own experience.
If this story is good, I will tell you another story, an self-experiment I did for myselfe two times on OBE. Since then I know the power of your mind and its limitation. Since these experiments I know it is all in your mind.
I generally consider it an exercise in stupidity to try and prove anything to a skeptic but there may be a few here who may want to hear the story.
In January of 2006, I was having a normal dream. I don't remember any specifics but I'm sure that I was saving the world or something like that. To make a long story short, I was told by someone in the dream to call my sister in the morning and tell her that the bag was behind their deep freeze.
We hadn't talked in a few months and I had already lost her number. No problem there since that one of the many great things that moms are good out.
I called her first thing since she lived in Maine and I was calling from Texas which meant that I was already an hour late. I could tell she was frantic and when I asked her why, she told me that she was missing the weekend sales from a benefit they had for my nephews school's fundraiser. It was almost two-thousand smackers. I told her to calm down because I knew exactly where it was.
She was a little annoyed at having to triple look behind the freezer but low-and-behold, it was right where the guy in my "dream" said it would be.
Using your logic of reducing skills, I could dismiss this all as coming from my mind because I already knew I has a sister and a school age nephew. I'll admit hat I had never visited them in Maine but common sense tells me that they have a freezer to keep their perishables from spoiling.
Good point OFEN, I am already convinced. :roll:
Ok that's the strangest story I ever heard, I respect your perception that there could be something more. But it was no OBE, sounds like remote viewing? Sometimes I hear also voices before OBE but they say things that doesn't make sense.
Now I tell you about my experiment: I wanted to know how you can taste food in OBE and if its like in reality. So my first experiment was about to buy an Mc Chicken from Mc Donalds and I ate a half of the Mc Chicken before I went to bed and the another half I wanted to eat in the morning.
I started my OBE, fly to the Mc Chicken which was near to my bed. I opened the package and there I saw a full Mc Chicken. I ate only a half of it and it tasted a little bit dry but however there was the typical Mc Chicken taste so I was surprised how real it was. On the next morning I forgot that I ate the one half the night before. I went to the package, opened it and expected a full Mc Chicken. But there was only a half, so I thought first I ate it in OBE. I was scared, I asked everyone in my home if they ate a halfe from my mc chicken ( which was hidden on a cabinet) but of course they didnt. A few weeks later I realized, that I ate a half of the Mc Chicken before I went to bed and i just forgot it.
So this experiment showed me, that in OBE you can have almost the same taste of a certain food you know like the taste in reality. But what about food you never eat before? What taste would it have in OBE?
I buyed pralinen I never ate before and I had no Idea how they could taste by looking at them. I put three of them on my cablinet and then I ate them in OBE. All three pralinen tasted like nothing. It was strange, It was like eating a cardboard.
This experiment showed me, that it must be all in your mind. Your mind cannot create a new taste, because it dont know how these things could taste. It has no memory about it. So your OBE must connect with your mind, since this I believe 100 % it is all in your mind.
So Ofen, what you are saying is, if you didn't have an OBE, then no one else could be having OBEs. Is this right?
I want to say that I prooved for myself and other people should also try to proove to theirselve and not just read books about how real OBEs are. The story about the bag behind the fridge might be very scary and nice to read but you should build your beliefe if OBEs can be real or not primary about your own experience in OBE.
But most of us have had experiences in which validations happened, and others in which nothing but self-created things happened. But I don't see how that proves anything. It's like saying, go outside, look, is there a school bus? Some days yes, some days no. Does that mean that because on Tuesday I didn't see a school bus, it means that there are no school buses? Should I ignore (in my own perception) the times I saw the school bus?
I can safely said that at least three (or four) times in my life, I went out and saw what was happening, which was later validated by others.
I obviously can't prove it to you (and I don't want to, I know what I experienced was part of consensus 'objective' reality) but I know at least in those instances, that undoubtedly the experience was verifiably real.
What I don't understand is why you say things that you can't know- what others' experiences and opinions are like.
Quote from: Ofen on November 14, 2013, 14:09:58
I want to say that I prooved for myself and other people should also try to proove to theirselve and not just read books about how real OBEs are. The story about the bag behind the fridge might be very scary and nice to read but you should build your beliefe if OBEs can be real or not primary about your own experience in OBE.
But he said he had an experience in which he believed- a validation. Are you saying that because you proved you only hallucinated his experience must have been a hallucination too?
Here is a thread in which people talk about their own experiences (mine is in there, possibly in the beginning). Are you saying that the data doesn't count because it doesn't fit your worldview?
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_permanent_astral_topics/validation_thread-t25607.0.html
I dont want to change my whole worldview just on stories some people experienced. If I would experience such unbelievable stories on my own, I would gonna go crazy. It would destroy my complete worldview from one day to another.
I made a lot of experiments in OBE at the beginning to get to know this phenomenon better. Until now I had NEVER experienced something that would change my normal worldview. On Obe I looked at cards to see if I can read them, I remebered things, I interacted with food, Objects, with my cat, talked to my family members to see if they can remeber my visit, read books in OBE. There was nothing unusual or paranormal (Just the coke story maybe but thats it).
Ofen, I appreciate you trying to clear things up for me but my experience was an OOBE. I just didn't go into greater detail with a skeptic because I have a 100% accuracy rate of guessing their reply will be yeah..but.
By the way, did you notice that you tried to explain it away by saying it might have been another phenomenon (RV), which can be just another form of an OOBE.
I'm sorry to hear that your first grade science experiment with chicken mcnuggets was enough to completely change your mind about the OOBE.
I'm not trying to purposely be rude but I find it shame that you have given up so easily.
Just so you know, 99.9% of all validations happen unexpectedly. Otherwise, someone would have sued James Randi a long time ago for not paying up the million bucks that he never had any intention on wagering in the first place.
If you really do have OOBE, I suggest you give up on the silly experiments so the real mind blowing stuff can begin. Never mind, I just read where you're scared of having to change your worldview so you're better off not having OOBE. :-)
No one here wants you to change your worldview based off of our experiences. That would just make you a fool. We want you to have your own. :-)
You say 99.9% of all validations happen unexpectedly, I ask me really why! why u cannot control it if its real possible to get new information in OBE. You would have such a big advantage.
I will be skeptic, but you are right. I will try again some experiments! OBE is a big secret and I do not really know how this another world really works. For example why you can hear music from a orchestra you never heard before and it sounds good? the mind has such great power!
Quote from: Ofen on November 14, 2013, 20:58:33
I dont want to change my whole worldview just on stories some people experienced. If I would experience such unbelievable stories on my own, I would gonna go crazy. It would destroy my complete worldview from one day to another.
I made a lot of experiments in OBE at the beginning to get to know this phenomenon better. Until now I had NEVER experienced something that would change my normal worldview. On Obe I looked at cards to see if I can read them, I remembered things, I interacted with food, Objects, with my cat, talked to my family members to see if they can remember my visit, read books in OBE. There was nothing unusual or paranormal (Just the coke story maybe but thats it).
But I think this is what you're not getting- No one is asking you to change your worldview. We are simply saying to not deny or disparage our experiences because they don't fit in yours. In effect, what you're saying is- since your experiences, verified or not, were not replicated by my experiences, you are lying or deluded.
You don't have to believe anything-just don't declare that our experiences are not valid.
Ofen, I like your conviction to your experiences. They are incredibly limited though. A grain of sand on a beach sort of limited.
I'd suggest a more scientific approach, be skeptical by all means, you'd make a perfect student if the denial was left out.
No one can convince you and all the stories are just that. You'd not make anything up too with this mindset.
You're travels in the RTZ are a beginners level experience. Let's see how you'd react if you simply "KNEW" an event was going to happen. A dream or whatever label you wish to call the experience, you are there, seeing and feeling the emotions of many people who knew their end is about to happen. Then the event occurs, you witness eveything and wake up a tad emotional (massive understatement).
A week later in our real time you watch the news and it hits you in the face. Every little detail you were involved in exactly as previously seen (second time emotional upset).
I can guess this sort of validation would impact your delusion in one go. Now imagine having this occur for over thirty years, it's a validation to me.
Are you up for the challenge to learn what you can achieve?
You may not get to the previously mentioned experiences for some time if ever. It will take you away from this limited real world copy you've only experienced so far.
I have one for you Ofen! :-)
Two years ago MJ and I were to have a store in our local Mall. We paid the contract for the store and were set to open it in 30 days. I did a Phase session and saw that I was in the Mall, but working at a Kiosk, not a store and that I was selling 2 completely different products, that we had never sold before. Actually they were 2 products that I didn't know anything about. We had our own inventory ready to go as it was and had no need for these other 2 things.
Trusting my vision, I searched everywhere and set up a line of distribution with the needed companies. I told MJ of my vision. She didn't want to hear any of that talk. A store gave her an area to paint and sculpt her beautiful Dragons. It gave us a bathroom, a sink, a door, etc. In the past we had sold on Kiosks, but for the previous 4 years we had a temporary store location. I finally talked MJ into ordering a "small" amount" of these two new things, one being a Salt Lamp, the other a Glass Blown Jellyfish. I upped the order though, unbeknownst to her.
Two days before we were set to go in the Mall, MJ phoned them for our key. About 5 minutes later we received a call saying they had made a terrible mistake. Our store was in Michigan, not Minnesota. Michigan is a looooooooooooong way away from Minnesota. This hit MJ like a knife in the heart. She had spent the last month and half sculpting Dragons and preparing for our store. The only option the Mall office had was to give us a Kiosk and so my Astral vision came true.
That year we sold Salt Lamps on one side and Glass Jellyfish on the other. Had I not of seen it in my vision we would have taken a major financial loss. We can't sell her Dragons on a Kiosk. There is no where for her to sculpt or paint them there. A Kiosk is a small booth in the aisle of a Mall that is approximately 7 ft wide by 10 ft long. Our store was to be about 60 square feet.
By the way here are the results of aware study:
http://www.abstractsonline.com/Plan/ViewAbstract.aspx?sKey=98ecd07e-214a-4bc4-9e2a-3e16692fdfb7&cKey=d6b5998d-9962-42c8-b184-a57d57ef8353&mKey={951E351E-429C-4B2E-84D0-8DA73B00DE45}
"Placement of images corresponded with only 33% of all CA locations. " What that mean? Does it mean, that only 33% of all CA locations had placed images?
If I understand correctly, there are 16 of 2060 cardiac arrest who had a real NDE. And there is ONE of 2060 who accurately described details corresponding with a verifiable period of at least 3-5 minutes of CA. But in his room they had not placed images. So all in all no one saw these Images.
It says that out of 2060 cardiac arrest patients, only 657 survived.
Out of that 657, only 152 would do an interview.
Out of 152, 30% (roughly 46 people)reported what qualifies as an NDE according to the study but no one reported seeing God or a white light. They only reported what they perceived to be happening in the room.
From there, they only tell us a tiny bit about two cases, not that only two people had the NDE.
Unfortunately they can't predict when and where someone will have a heart attack so no survivors that were interviewed happened to be in a room with prearranged images.
These are doctors doing a scientific kind of test . It would be interesting to know what the Greyson test is . I would think that some of Sam Parnia's colleagues read these forums and would do as I suggested and put a Barbie , g.i. Joe , or Gumby in a box in a high place in the operating room .
Quote from: Ofen on November 13, 2013, 18:43:25
ok, you have a better story than mine? I know u can only prove to yourselve. I am curious what it could be, I want to listen about your experience. And dont cite any spiritual autors, share with me your own experience.
If this story is good, I will tell you another story, an self-experiment I did for myselfe two times on OBE. Since then I know the power of your mind and its limitation. Since these experiments I know it is all in your mind.
I'd love to share several dozen experiences but since you 'know', it would be of no value to you. :-P
QuoteAuditory and/or visual experiences during unconsciousness may be a relatively common phenomenon. Even though these experiences may not reflect the conventionally defined NDE and may be different, they may indicate that consciousness may not cease as expected with cessation of heartbeat during CA
Sufficiently vague. Five "mays".
Parnia has admitted that he is seeking follow-on funding so don't expect he will cut his own head off with any firm "NDE's are real" conclusions. I expect that he
may get one or two veridical hits that he
may spin into another set of "mays".
TylerSnotgern show your stories. Maybe Sam Parnia read this article so his next study will not be about NDE but about OBE. There he can do the image tests with 1000 of OBEler.
And then there is no "maybe these, maybe that" as a result.
The results of any study on NDEs and OOBEs will always be interesting and will garner much attention from interested parties but ultimately, nothing will come of it. Believers will believe and skeptics will doubt or outright disbelieve.
yeah, look at the results of this 5 years study. But what about a gigantic study with OBEler? Because of internet there are more OBEler than in the 70s or 80s. You can find them more easier.
And then you do it with modern science and not with the science methods n the 70s where some people like Uri Geller can foul scientists.
The whole Aware Study failed. 5 Years study for this? They want to go on with it but it would be better to stop this right now!
Or there should be someone else who leads this study, someone who has knowledge about this stuff. What do you think?
We've only seen the abstract. Has anybody read the full text? Regarding getting someone else to lead it, Sam Parnia is more than competent. Just watch any of his YouTube videos. He's good.
Here is a recent article that briefly mentions Dr. Sam Parnia's results of his studies on 152 "Survivors".
"During the AHA meeting, Dr. Sam Parnia, head of intensive care at Stony Brook University Hospital in New York, reported early results of a 25-hospital study of how frequently cardiac arrest survivors see or hear things while their hearts are stopped. Of 152 survivors interviewed, 37 percent said they had recollections from the unconscious period. Only two recalled actually seeing events and one described any events that could be verified. None saw images mounted in the treatment room as part of the experiment."
Here is the entire article: http://www.newsnet5.com/news/science-tech/scientists-looking-closer-at-what-happens-when-body-dies
As Mr Parnia is also quoted in this paper, I put it here instead of making a new thread.
Came across this good science paper debunking (or at least criticising heavily) the materialist theories to 'explain away' NDEs as a mere brain phenomenon. It's by the Department of Neurosciences, University of Padova, Padova, Italy / Italian Center of Clinical and Experimental Hypnosis, Torino, Italy / Department of General Psychology, University of Padova, Padova, Italy
http://www.deanradin.com/evidence/Facco2012NDE.pdf
If you're not familiar like me with medicine terminology some parts might be a bit difficult. However, I think it is still readable also for a medical layperson.
Quote from: Astralzombie on November 18, 2013, 09:26:06
The results of any study on NDEs and OOBEs will always be interesting and will garner much attention from interested parties but ultimately, nothing will come of it. Believers will believe and skeptics will doubt or outright disbelieve.
Yep, if you're trying to get the [pseudo]skeptics to buy in with any magnitude, good luck with that. Ain't happening.
It's the fence sitters or the uninitiated that may come across to the proponent position, they are the few, low hanging fruit(s). :wink:
Sam Parnia has apparently published something in the journal Resuscitation:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/life-after-death-near-death-experience-study-shows-awareness-continues-after-brain-shutdown-1468822
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/life-after-death-largestever-study-provides-evidence-that-out-of-body-and-neardeath-experiences-may-actually-be-real-9780195.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/10/08/life-after-death-study_n_5950582.html
http://www.resuscitationjournal.com/article/S0300-9572(14)00739-4/abstract
The PDF may be above, I've not checked it yet, time...
Thanks Szaxx
Yeah thanks.