Is the Devil real?

[Kojie]

I dont believe in demons or the devil.

[Syko Dragon]

Well, One's Belief in something, or Disbelief, has no bearing on whether or not it exists or not...However, the sad part is, is that the Believing in it, and putting one's Attention towards it sends it Energy...If enough people were to become SO Afraid of the Devil, the amount of time applied to the "Devil" (over so many generations) could, in fact, create a Devil of some sort on the Astral...

But, I think God exists, as does Satan...In some form or another, but also in Forms that we, or at least MOST, wouldn't and couldn't Comprehend...

I've had my share of Demon Fights...And I've had my Share of Revelations...In all my Training, I feel that Energy Work has Confirmed God's Existence, as well as Satan's, even More-so than before...

Good Luck Training...Until we meet again...

[beavis]

"Well, One's Belief in something, or Disbelief, has no bearing on whether or not it exists or not..."

"However, the sad part is, is that the Believing in it, and putting one's Attention towards it sends it Energy...If enough people were to become SO Afraid of the Devil, the amount of time applied to the "Devil" (over so many generations) could, in fact, create a Devil of some sort on the Astral..."

You contradict yourself.

[TruthSeeker]

"The greatest thing the devil ever did was to convince humankind that he did not exist"

Regards,

TruthSeeker

[beavis]

The greatest thing Santa Clause ever did was to convince parents that he did not exist.

[no_leaf_clover]

Truthseeker, can you see how that passage was created by the church to keep people fearing the devil? Or see at least how it could have been created for just that? From an atheist p.o.v., using that statement seems extremely ignorant.

There isn't really a way to disprove heaven or hell, but from what people have experienced in the astral, one can easily see how such ideas could come about. There are spirits that seems friendly, and those that are harmful (negs). There are pleasant places in the astral that could be called heaven and could differ from person to person, and there are those places you'd rather not be. Even when one dies, if you fear going to the stereotype of 'hell', then that person experiences regions of the astral that fit that feeling of fear too well, and as the person becomes more and more frightened, they experience worse and worse conditions, in what Frank has called an endless spiraling action. The only way out of such a situation is to stop reacting to the things around you and become indifferent, which can become difficult to say the least when your conditions are ever-worsening.

When all of these things are brought into the debate as to whether Hell and Satan exist, it's very easy to find the origins of such tales. Sightings of Satan and of Hell in the astral are possible by simply fearing the sight of them, nervously anticipating them, etc., but those are as common as sightings of anything else and are created by the mind. I'm sure people have seen a red guy with horns in the astral, like a stereotyped Satan, as well as firey pits. This is to be expected, right? But the origins of the red character known as Satan go back to old mythologies, and nowhere in the Bible does it say Satan resembles man. In fact, the church doesn't preach that he resembles man, but is a fallen angel, and looks just like the other angels of heaven. So why would people see a red guy with horns? Because both kinds of Satan, the red guy and a fallen spirit that feels 'wrong', could be experienced with negative thoughts. The same can apply to hell: the stereotype of Hell, with firey pits roasting sinners for all eternity, goes back to Dante's Divine Comedy.

The Divine Comedy is an Italian epic poem that is similar to Homer's The Odyssey. In it, Hell is depicted as a firey underworld, and that idea came from the underworld from Greek mythology, which came from the underworld from Sumerian and Babylonian 'mythology'.

You won't often hear the church describing Hell in detail. Maybe your local preacher might, etc., but the church itself doesn't officially say much because of all the possible contradictions, since there are many stereotypes of Satan and Hell that are technically inaccurate in the face of the Bible itself, but the church looks the other way on this as long as people fear Hell and subscribe to their religion.

There are lots of contradictions in the concept of Hell already, such as the fact that an all-powerful and infinitely-forgiving God would let his creations suffer for all eternity even though they may beg for forgiveness. This, however, can be traced back to an inaccuracy in the translation from Greek, where hell was described not as eternal, but for a period of 100 years or an undefined amount of time, depending on how you want to interpret the ancient language. But still, even in the light of this completely obvious translational error, preachers still preach that Hell is eternal on programs such as the 700 Club, while the church doesn't say a single word about translational errors or the like. It took the church nearly 200 years just to admit that they were wrong about the Earth being the center of the universe, and to apologize for all the great thinkers they killed for stating that Earth orbitted the sun!! We had taken pictures of the other planets and had diagrams of our solar system in textbooks before the church even decided to admit its mistake, which shows how forthcoming they are with the truth, doesn't it?

So.. I don't believe Satan or Hell necessarily have to exist, but any number of duplicates of those two things can exist if people believe they do. The church doesn't seem to be extremely anxious to tell us exactly what Hell and Satan are and aren't, and the number of variations on Christian beliefs are as widespread as the preachers that preach them. The astral seems to account for everything for me, and there's really nothing that points the other way.

[jilola]

There are souls that have progressed beyond the understanding of most if not all of us. Meeting one of them would be as meeting God.

There are souls that have sunken so deep into their own illusions as to be beyond the understanding of most if not all of us. Meeting one of them would be as meeting the Devil.

They are still souls like us, they were as were are now and we have the choice of becoming either of them.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[TruthSeeker]

Dear no_leaf_clover,

This is exactly the kind of response I was looking for. Thank you for your thoughts, as it is very important to reveal tre truth relating to this matter.
By this statement: "The greatest thing the devil ever did was to convince humankind that he did not exist", I wanted thoughts to start rolling in. I wanted people to make an effort trying to "prove me wrong". Exellent!

I am sure you noticed the quotationmarks, meaning I was not the one who said it, and this sentence should not be connected to me. I stated this quote to provoke you and to counteranswer by giving a more "truthful" truth.

I, myself do not believe in "the devil"(by traditional terms), nor do I believe in hell. There are higher planes of existence, and there are lower planes existence. If we follow strict christianity we might call the higher planes "heaven", and the lower planes "hell".

Do not follow a religion blindly because you are told to. You have free will, use it and cunclude yourself what is real and what is not. Traditional christianity is perhaps responsible for planting the "rumor" of "Satan"(That is if it really is just a rumor) And sure other religins have done other things they can not be proud of. Find your own path, seek the truth.

God(The creator, Universal consciousness etc.) created all we have around us, and has the power to destroy it all within a fraction of a fractioned second. Why doesn't "he" destroy everything that is "evil", if "he" has the power? He created it for us to learn and develop in the best way possible: By first-hand experiencing "EVERYTHING".

There might however be a devil, a dark lord. A consciousness(single individual or group-consciousness) that controlls "his" servants. But just as everything else he must have been created by God aswell(not a must, but most likely), hence he was created to help us learn and develop.

When it comes to "his" plan(that is IF he exists at all), I do not know. I have not the interest to know what the devil plans. If I understand what God's plan is, I will also understand the devil's big plan(if "he" really has one that is).

Spread love around you, love everything unconditionally. Love the angels, love the demons, love God, love "the dark lord". They are all here for us to learn and develop. We are Gods sons and daughters, and we should not express dislike or hatred towards his exellent "school" or any of its teachers or students.


Sincerely,

TruthSeeker

[no_leaf_clover]

lol. I guess you know what you're doing when it comes to getting what you want out of people, eh Truthseeker? []

[Syko Dragon]

To Beavis:

No, I did not contradict myself, I only gave a possible situation of what CAN occur, not saying it has...And, in it's Trueist sense, it would not be the Original Devil, per se, but rather one created from those who created the image of one "on the Astral"...Also, I'm talking about GENERATIONS of Attributed Energy, not from a single person's belief...

My first point was to point out that just because You or anybody believes in something or not does not mean it is necessarily True or not...That was a statement based on Individual Opinion and Belief, not something cultured over time (which was an alternative view of something that COULD happen)...Someone may not believe in the Devil, but that doesn't disprove if the Devil actually does exist or not...It is a Personal Belief or Disbelief...

Good Luck Training...Until we meet again...

[beavis]

Syko Dragon, You said believing something has no effect on if it exists. Then you said if enough people believe something, that thing receives energy from the believers and that can cause it to exist. Many millions of people (including the last 2000 years) believe the devil exists, so by your thinking he must have been caused to exist, which directly contradicts the first sentence in this post.

I didnt say the devil has been proven to exist or not exist.

[Syko Dragon]

To Beavis:

Yes, I did say that, but that is why I responded, clarifying that a "single" belief or disbelief wouldn't really have an effect on whether or not it exists...I'll restate it, then, if it so suits You, in that it will have a Next to Nothing Effect unless a person spends Countless Hours putting their Attention towards it's existence...Unfortunately, a disbelief wouldn't have as much of an effect since a denial of something's existence sends Energy "around" an idea/thing/etc as opposed to "against" it...

I said I meant it in a sense of Generations of Energy and Attention as opposed to a Single Person's Energy and Attention...

Also, I did say that it wouldn't be the "Original Devil," but a type of "Made-Up" Devil that was supposedly created from the Beginning (which it THEN would NOT have been)...In that sense, it wouldn't TRULY be the Satan that was a Fallen Angel before Time was Time, but one that Simulates the Devil "on the Astral"...

For example, if there wasn't a shield up around a new tennant's house before, but a previous owner had "said" there was one set up since 10 years before the new person occupied it, it is possible for the new person to create a shield around the house with their Belief (over time, that is, and Constant Attention to it)...The idea of the new tennant would be that it was set up 10 years ago, when in fact, it was made by the new tennant...It is a false idea that isn't TRULY what happened, even though it APPEARED to be so...

But, on the reverse side to it, it is also possible for a Shield to be up without the new tennant knowing it at all...The only difference is that the new tennant wouldn't be adding to the Shield...

In that case, it would be More Accurate to say that it is Possible that Humans had Contributed to the Existance of "A" Devil, which is not necessarily "THE" Devil of the Bible (or any from before)...despite if one was created "on the side" from other's belief's or not...

Good Luck Training...Until we meet again...

[fredhedd]

i say...

everything exists.  there isn't anything you can imagine that doesn't.  i believe that to say what god is or isn't is missing the point.  i'm going to do it anyway though. god is existence, thought, creation.  god is our mind, not some entity or being that god is usually imagined being.  god is not the opposite of the devil.  god is the devil, just as we are all part of god.  you can't seperate god from anything.  thinking that everything is god's creation except for the devil is ridiculous.

[beavis]

Syko Dragon, exists or not is gradual. Something can exist only in one entity's mind or in billions. When many think about the same thing, that thing becomes "reality". When one entity thinks about something, that thing still exists but is much lighter in energy density.

[Syko Dragon]

To Beavis:

Which was exactly my point...[xx(]  The only other part I was trying to point out was that the "time" it was created doesn't necessarily mean it is THE Devil from BEFORE we COULD think of such things and gradually create them or not...See what I mean?

Good Luck Training...Until we meet again...

[beavis]

How is "BEFORE" relevant? All time is simultaneous, and if he exists really far away, some people would see him existing before us and some would see him after.

[Lasher]

quote:Originally posted by beavis

The greatest thing Santa Clause ever did was to convince parents that he did not exist.

The greatest thing the Easter Bunny ever did was to begin laying easter eggs.

Lasher

[Varner-LaPrade]

Heaven is an actually place,but not permanent one. In Sichtin's      
books "THE EARTH CRONICHLES" he explains heaven as a spacestation
for the Anunnaki.  

[no_leaf_clover]

But Sitchin says nothing about going there after you die. [xx(]

The only thing remotely close to that idea is in certain Egyptian rituals, where prayers are made that the particular Pharaoah be granted permission to travel to Nibiru and eat of the foods of life and drink of the waters of life, but of course by that time he would already be dead, implying that Nibiru has spiritual significance as well as a physical one...

A place that resembles the christian idea of heaven is beyond the Buddhic level as described in Robert Bruce's Astral Dynamics. I believe this is where the idea of heaven comes from. Just read Robert's section on it. Sounds exactly like heaven is told to be like.

[Varner-LaPrade]

But humans can reach heaven,we wanted to go there so much we built a tower "THE TOWER OF BABEL",but was destroyed and we were dived in three group s with different tounges.


Man should never go to heaven!!!!!

[no_leaf_clover]

The 'heaven' you are referring to is different than what is meant on this topic. The term 'heaven' is modern. The Sumerians and Egyptians referred to Nibiru with such terms as (as closely translated into English as possible based on Sitchin's work) 'The [Celestial Body] of One Million Years', the 'Celestial Abode', 'Abode of Ra', etc., etc. 'Heaven' was applied to Sumerian and Egyptian mythologies because it was something to relate the ancient religion to modern ones and make it easier to understand. The ideas of Heaven have some roots in Egypt and Sumer, but for the most part it must be based on spiritual experiences since it resembles so accurately the spiritual dimension Robert Bruce described.

[Leviiathan]

Truthseeker:

Ah yes, that one single quote you posted about Satan "the greatest thing that Satan ever accomplished was having man deny his existence" (Not accurate, but close enough to the original quote).

I'm agnostic, but I realize I am also a misguided spiritualist who has no grasp of what is going on. Since I am agnostic to almost all forms of spiritual belief, it is hard for me to fall back on a lie, or perhaps the greatest fear of all: ignorance.

As I write this right now, I realize that there is no fear in ignorance other than vanity. What greater irony would there be than to die for a cause only to find out that it was a lie.

I'm skeptical to biblical truth -- because it is errant, diametric, and defeated by page 2 through an illogical account of purpose -- but at the same time, I am not proud or -- how shall I put it -- arrogant enough to turn a blind eye to it. Unfortunately, the more I try and remain agnostic and gray, the more I realize how unforgiving a spiritual world is towards those with a gray perspective.

No matter what I believe these days, there is always that lingering doubt . . . "what if. . . ."

= = =

Whenever I contemplate on God, I think of Him as more of an undefined variable in a great mathematical universe. I think it is necessary this way, for definition brings restriction. I think we can establish that God is undefined because He has no properties, but we can also establish that God, as a number, is absolute and unlimited. So why then, should it make sense to place restrictions, adjectives, or limitations on something so unknown? (more than to simply to satisfy our egos)

[Syko Dragon]

To Beavis:

Well, time in its Trueist Essence may be simultaneous, but the time in which I'm referring to is Geometric Time, which has a beginning, a middle, an end, and all the rest in between...

You can keep arguing that people were to see him far away and some may see him close up, but that is still an invalid argument to try to justify since You're not taking into account what I just said...Instead, You're just going on for the sake of arguing, so I probably won't respond any further for Your Amusement and Closed-Mindedness...

In terms of Your last response, it is an invalid argument in that You just used MY Point in a different way to try to create a seemingly counter arguement against me, using My Point in Your Words does NOT have any relevence towards Growth, just for Arguing (maybe a sense of retaliation from other posts, I don't know)...

You say if some see him before us, and some see him after us, then that is inconsistent with time being simultaneous, and You are arguing from a Geometric Time stand-point...Therefore, to Clarify further and show the relevence of "Before", the "Before" I was referring to is that from the Beginning of anybody seeing anything at all (since a "Before" in Geometric Time assumes a Beginning of such events, not of a Simultaneous Nature)...Thus, the difference of the supposed "Original" Satan and the "Created" one...

Good Luck Training...Until we meet again...

[Allanon]

Jesus Christ is Lord and the Devil is nothing more than a selfish creation.

[no_leaf_clover]

Why didn't Jesus tell us to pray to him? I mean, if he wanted to save us by getting himself murdered, wouldn't he at least tell us about that sort of thing himself rather than waiting for the church to take about 350 years to decide that's what he meant?