The attraction of the left hand path

[Tayesin]

Hi All,
Why is it so necessary to choose a path of the extreme, whether it is RHP or LHP ?

Has anyone thought about making their own Path ?  Perhaps walking a middle path that is less trodden would be preferable to any extreme.

Extremism is quite natural for us humans, it is how we are conditioned.

Why not forge your own Path, attaching to no-one else's Belief-System constructions ?

VioletRose, I enjoyed the clear thoughts presented in your posts here.

[neutrino]

Ditto Tayesin.  I've thought about this a lot, & used to worry slighty about my 'failure to fit' either of the extremes. Perhaps sharing a sense of purpose & values with a clearly defined group is attractive to many (& to me also sometimes), but ultimately I like to do it my way, choosing what is right for me at this stage of my journey from the various different approaches. Maybe such an individualistic approach is really LHP in some way, but whatever....

[pmlonline]

Why is it so necessary to choose a path of the extreme ...

Has anyone thought about making their own Path ?

So in other words you wish to not believe what the countless Adepts / Liberated ones teach about the universe, your bodies, etc?  What the liberated teachers teach are techniques proven over 1000's of years that greatly improve one's bodies, one's own being, to reach liberation.  In the same manner, one will reach better and quicker results at the gym if they learn proven exercises.

So yes indeed it is your choice to not believe and practice what those liberated teachers before us have already learned.  It is called the scenic route, the long path.  I chose the short path so that I may become liberated and help others.

Not to scare anyone, but they should know that the Anthropoid Apes chose the scenic route.  Yes, the Anthropoid Apes were part of the human kingdom, but were held back at the last great period.  Also remember that the Fallen Angels were part of the Angelic Kingdom, but were also held back.

Peace & Love,
Paul

[Tayesin]

Hi Paul,
Quote, "So in other words you wish to not believe what the countless Adepts / Liberated ones teach about the universe, your bodies, etc? What the liberated teachers teach are techniques proven over 1000's of years that greatly improve one's bodies, one's own being, to reach liberation. In the same manner, one will reach better and quicker results at the gym if they learn proven exercises."

I think we have discussed this last year.  Yes, I choose not to Follow.  I am a Pioneer.  Without those adepts who originally pioneered the way,  there wouldn't be a Way for others to follow.

If something works for me I use it, if not it goes in the scrap pile to be thrown out...  no matter what Master or Adept has claimed it as truth.

I agree with your Gym analogy Paul, bit it is not always so.  Sometimes you find a Gymnast with excellent natural skills that only need to be honed using the proven methods... after which they will not need to follow anymore.

This is what I have done over my 25+ years of Astral and higher experience.   I used the proven paths first, till I reached the boundary of their scope in my teens, and from there I explored on my own.

For many years I have been working with the Guidance I met at age 7, and experinced Oneness and it's enlightening nature a few years ago now through many sessions of Kundalini raising.

What I don't like about the old ways Paul, is that to accept them also means to accept their limitations, and the path is extremely long, compared to my own.  Besides, I do not seek Liberation from the Series of Incarnations I chose to experience on this world...  I am happy to return again and continue with the work to be done in Earth's future.  My choice as I see it.

Thanks for the opportunity to answer this question Paul.

Love Always.

[kalratri]

Hi Paul,

What I don't like about the old ways Paul, is that to accept them also means to accept their limitations, and the path is extremely long, compared to my own.  Besides, I do not seek Liberation from the Series of Incarnations I chose to experience on this world...  I am happy to return again and continue with the work to be done in Earth's future.  My choice as I see it.

Thanks for the opportunity to answer this question Paul.

Love Always.

That's unfortuneate.  Anyone given the opportunity by being given birth into a lineage with spiritual knowledge has every obligation to take it as far as they possibly can.  Every time someone attains a high state, they raise the energy of entire humanity...  It is a horrible burden, but the knowledge you have now CAN BE LOST IN YOUR NEXT LIFETIME...

For me, that would be a complete waste...it takes a lot of work and a lot of practice...I can't imagine if I lost this knowledge in my next life. Win or lose,  I'm certainly going to try my best.

[aryanknight666]

The way I see the left hand path is that it revolves quite a bit around the self. It does not deny or supress the self. The self and the ego are considered to exist and to be important. There is a controlled seflishness in the left hand path. The left hand path does not deny that man is simply another animal, not neccesarily any better then those who walk on all fours, and thus it does not deny the carnal nature of man and the carnal desires of man. Lust, hate and anger are not denied or supressed. Sexuality is not suppressed or denied and is rather indulged in. Sexuality is considered to be important. While the right hand path might deal with ascending energy through the crown chakra and becoming one with 'the all, the one and the all' or 'the source' and being absorbed into a huge energy void the left hand path considers sexual energy to be raw life force, and coiled at the base of the spine it is uncoiled, ascends to the crown chakra and godhead, personal godhead, is acheived.
With regards to magick, magick in the left hand path is used to acheive one's own ends, whatever they may be. The magician tries different techniqes and whatever works best for them then they put that to use, they try whatever they want and anything that they have found to bogus or useless to them they discard. This is chaos magick. There is not really any concept of 'black' magick and 'white magick', at least not in the popular perceptions of the words, nor is there any concept of 'good' or 'evil' and magick is not considered to come from any source or diety.
Does a left hand pather beleive in revenge and vengeance? Most certainly! That is why destructions rituals or 'black magick' is employed in the left hand path. The left hand path definatley involves a beleif in revenge and justice and a fullfillment of these beleifs.
The left hand path is also about wisdom, intelligence, strength, the individual, indulgence, free thought, free opinion, free choice, individualism. Death to the weak, victory to the strong. Weakness and stupidity are looked down on. Being a goat rather then a sheep of the herd mentality, or a wolf; adversary and enemy of the herd menality, predator of the sheep.

The right hand path is more about bowing down and worshipping, prostrating oneself before a certain image or diety, about denying the self and the existance and reality of carnal man and carnal desire, and the denial of sexuality, hatred, anger, lust, etc.
It's more about being a sheep and the herd mentality, accepting whatever you are told from this diety or leader as a truth and not questioning the truth or falsehood of any such statement. It's the 'inherent sin' attitude where the carnal or primitive man is considered evil as is knowledge and power, and we need to be innocent without any strong will so that we do not question whatever 'God' or whoever tells us.
It usually denies sexuality and lust, or the duality of male and female. Sexuality is considered irrevelant and instead abstinence from these sorts of things is encouraged. Rather then ascending the kundalini or sexual energy to acheive godhead, its about sacrificing the self and the ego or ascending energy through the crown chakra to become one with 'the all, the one and the all' or the source. It's not about acheiving Godhead or anything like that because then thats desire and power, which is considered evil. Instead you must sacrifice all of your natural and carnal desires, to try and get rid of the self so you can become one with some sort of a higher plane. With magick, its more about being not using magick for yourself or personal gain unless that personal gain is earnt from helping another person. Its like using magick for others or the 'good or betterment of mankind'. But, one man's pleasure is another man's pain, who's to say whats 'good' or 'evil' especially for mankind? . A right hand path magician thinks himself to be a 'white' magician and profusely refuses any sort of what they call 'black magick', any ties with a destruction ritual or revenge, or using magick to meet one's own ends.
A right hand pather usually carries the attatched stigma from something like christianity into magick and the occult and will only ever deal with an external being who talks about being an 'angel' or a part of the 'god consciousness' or something to that effect. The usually take a base idea from montheism or abrahamic religions with 'God' and the abrahamic concept of 'good and evil' and 'angels' and then try and evolve it into something so that they can lump all religions together and claim that they all conform to this idea. They will of course take out anything they don't like and keep anything that conforms to their idea of the aboslutely right religion, which is usually something like 'new age' or what they call 'spirituality' which is apprently something totally seperate from religions.

[Tayesin]

That's unfortuneate.  Anyone given the opportunity by being given birth into a lineage with spiritual knowledge has every obligation to take it as far as they possibly can.  Every time someone attains a high state, they raise the energy of entire humanity...  It is a horrible burden, but the knowledge you have now CAN BE LOST IN YOUR NEXT LIFETIME...

For me, that would be a complete waste...it takes a lot of work and a lot of practice...I can't imagine if I lost this knowledge in my next life. Win or lose,  I'm certainly going to try my best.

Given birth ?  I choose my incarnations here and elsewhere for my own  purposes Kalratri.  Yes there is responsibility, but not in the way you believe it to be.

I have had other incarnations here, where I have reached similar higher-self awareness and here I am again... it is never lost, only partially forgotten, and then easily Remembered.  Do not forget we have already Ascended from other worlds prior to volunteering to Experience this Earth realm.

There is no win or lose.  I have already chosen to return and continue my work here for the highest good of the Planet and all who dwell upon it.  This I did with full awareness of the tasks involved in the next immediate incarnation.

All is not as most believe it to be, far from it in fact.  Beliefs are confining and prevent you from having experience of anything outside the boundaries of the beliefs you have attached to Kalratri.

Release your attachment to belief structures and you will begin to see far more clearly what is and what isn't.  Then you will come to know what you really are, and, why you are here.

There is never waste, only Experience and Remembering.  All the rest is only Belief structures and as such are extremely fallible and confining.

Love Always.  

[neutrino]

What is the objection in the RHP to using magic for personal gain, if it doesn't involve harming others? Is it just because desire is considered inherently bad in itself?

[pmlonline]

As a preface dear Tayesin, please do not think I am scolding you or arguing.  Under certain circumstances I am very critical.  Down the road many students and disciples will read your statements.  No hard feelings, just Love despite how you may see my words.

Yes, I choose not to Follow.  I am a Pioneer.  Without those adepts who originally pioneered the way,  there wouldn't be a Way for others to follow.
...
I used the proven paths first, till I reached the boundary of their scope in my teens, and from there I explored on my own.

If I understand you correctly, you followed a proven path, but now you chose not to follow.

A good scientist, regardless if they want to be a rebel, will always use experimental data from others.  IMHO Tesla was one of the greatest scientists in all history.  Even Tesla regarded the experimental data from other scientists as priceless.  Without that data / information / knowledge one would have to completely start over from scratch.

If something works for me I use it, if not it goes in the scrap pile to be thrown out...  no matter what Master or Adept has claimed it as truth.

I agree.  That's the difference from a global teacher and a one-on-one teacher.  If that one-on-one teacher truly is an Adept or at least 3rd degree Initiate than he or she will know by inner sight what your exact needs are.  That is an easy task for an Adept.

I agree with your Gym analogy Paul, bit it is not always so.  Sometimes you find a Gymnast with excellent natural skills that only need to be honed using the proven methods... after which they will not need to follow anymore.

I partially agree.  Remember that in all creation there is always someone far above you in vibration and liberation.
Do you not think it is wise to spend a week searching for one of the best teachers rather than spending a lifetime reinventing the wheel dear Tayesin?  My friend, I have been called a rebel by many.  But even I must admit that it is pointless to reinvent something.  I personally prefer to use all previous experimental knowledge for my journey but not the interpretations.  Yes, there are many teachers that I chose not to follow, but that is not the point.  The point is that there are teachers that I follow.  Personally I would never state to students and disciples on the path "I choose not to follow."
Yes there are many body builders who "think" they now have it all; i.e., that they no longer need to learn more.  Let's use a muscle builder as example.  This muscle builder learns to build huge muscles.  So is that the end of the road?  Does that mean he should stop following the path of others who are beyond?  I would suggest that there are people on earth who have learned to use Chi.  Chi is that step beyond muscles.  I know for fact that Chi Masters are many times stronger than any muscle man.

What I don't like about the old ways Paul, is that to accept them also means to accept their limitations

What limitations might that be dear Tayesin?  You've stated that you don't like their ways.  So out of respect for those "true" teachers could you please provide a specific example?  We should put forth some effort into finding the right teacher.  All true teachers offer exercises that go far beyond anyone on earth unless you are an Avatar.

and the path is extremely long, compared to my own.

I completely 100% disagree with you.  There are always teachers far, far, far above you Tayesin.  I do not mean to insult you but I find that statement extremely rebellious.  Perhaps you have not looked hard enough for that teacher dear Tayesin.  There are disciples listening to you Tayesin, hence the purpose of my post.

Besides, I do not seek Liberation from the Series of Incarnations I chose to experience on this world...  I am happy to return again and continue with the work to be done in Earth's future.  My choice as I see it.

I am sure you mean that you seek to stay on this world while being liberated.  If you truly mean what you stated, that you do not want liberation, then that means you want to become part of the next fallen angels.  I am certain you do not wish that.
An Adept is a liberated Soul who chooses to stay on the wheel of life for a while longer to help others.  But note that an Avatar is Liberated Tayesin.  Also know that it is very rare for a Soul to chose to become an Avatar.

Again, no hard feelings, just Love.

Peace & Love,
Paul

[pmlonline]

Why is it so necessary to choose a path of the extreme, whether it is RHP or LHP?

There are many teachers who do not teach these extremes you describe.  All true teachers I have encountered teach a balance of the two paths, Knowledge and Heart.  Who here has put forth the effort to find these teachers?

Love & Peace,
Paul

[SomeBloke]

A good scientist, regardless if they want to be a rebel, will always use experimental data from others. IMHO Tesla was one of the greatest scientists in all history.

Tesla was pretty amazing, well worth reading up on, although a lot of what's written about him sounds like science fiction (e.g. The Philadelphia Project.)

Even Tesla regarded the experimental data from other scientists as priceless. Without that data / information / knowledge one would have to completely start over from scratch.

"We see beyond because we stand on the shoulders of giants" and all that.

[pmlonline]

"We see beyond because we stand on the shoulders of giants" and all that.

Thanks for that very cool and true quote SomeBloke.  I did a google search and found the famous Isaac Newton quote,

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stand on the shoulders of giants.  
- Isaac Newton

Peace & Love,
Paul

[Tayesin]

Paul,
Thank you for taking the time to write a reply so well presented.  

I truly do understand what you are saying to me my friend.

But I do not think you are understanding me, and I apologize for this weakness..  the difficulty to express to you so that you will see it clearly, without it first going through your own belief-system's filters.

I wrote that post without shrinking back for fear of ridicule for what I am, and for what I own about my-Self here.  I apologize also if this offends your sense of tradition and foundation, I truly do.

I mean no disrespect to you or anyone else, but I cannot be defined by your or anyone else's opinions, beliefs and judgments, nor the many traditions of this world.

I am a square peg and cannot be fitted into round-belief-system-holes.

You said, "If I understand you correctly, you followed a proven path, but now you chose not to follow."

I took what worked and discarded the rest.  Still do.   Just because one path offers some good things does not imply that it must be doggedly stuck to all the way to the end of the path.  How rigid would that be ?  If it stops working for you, or you find a more effective way, do you then deny them and stay attached to the first one ?  Is that real growth ?

You said, "If that one-on-one teacher truly is an Adept or at least 3rd degree Initiate than he or she will know by inner sight what your exact needs are. That is an easy task for an Adept. "

Yes, it is very easy Paul.  And yes it is inner Sight, AND, communication with their Higher-Self.

You asked, "Do you not think it is wise to spend a week searching for one of the best teachers rather than spending a lifetime reinventing the wheel."

Spend half an hour with me Paul and you will Experience for yourself, your Higher-Self and your Guides.  This is what I do.  No wheel re-inventing here my friend.  Perhaps we could say I am helping to bring in anti-grav cars because the wheel is no longer needed where we are going ?  

You asked, "Does that mean he should stop following the path of others who are beyond?"

This question is reliant upon a perception of "others who are beyond", and exactly what person is making the distinction, and from what belief system base.  There is a note of judgmentalism in your post Paul, as if you want to say, "Tayesin, you are not an Avatar or Adept", yet you cannot know what I am by these definitions.  Nor what you truly are.

The big problem with this type of approach Paul, is, you have absolutely no concept of me and what i am, because you are looking through the windows of your current philosophy or belief-system.  In this way you cannot see what is offered to you because it does not and cannot  fit/compute with your view of the way it must be.

You asked, "What limitations might that be dear Tayesin?  So out of respect for those "true" teachers could you please provide a specific example?"

Take Christianity for an example.  It is a valid belief system with millions of adherents worldwide, yet it has boundaries.  It stops shy of recognizing the truths that many of us here at the Pulse have experienced for themselves, AP, OOBE, etc.  If I attach to that belief-system Paul, then I am restricted in my beliefs and possibilities that I can experience.

The same is true for all belief-systems, no matter what they are or how long they have been around.  Take Tibetan Buddhism for an example.  It was my preferred religion for a time.  It allows for so much more than the restrictive Christian religions, yet, it takes a life-time through the old slow ways, if you are lucky, to reach your High-Self awareness and the Oneness called Nirvana.  Since other ways can bring people to these awareness's much quicker, even this wonderful and traditional religion must have restrictions/boundaries.. because it is a philosophy/belief-system.

You said, "I completely 100% disagree with you. There are always teachers far, far, far above you Tayesin. I do not mean to insult you but I find that statement extremely rebellious. Perhaps you have not looked hard enough for that teacher dear Tayesin. There are disciples listening to you Tayesin, hence the purpose of my post."

It's okay to disagree.  But again you are making a judgment about me and you have no real concept of me.  

If you find my statement "extremely rebellious", perhaps you should look at why You are feeling that.  

What Disciples are you speaking of Paul ?  It is well and good that people seek in various places, this is how Seeds are Sown.

You said, "I am sure you mean that you seek to stay on this world while being liberated. If you truly mean what you stated, that you do not want liberation, then that means you want to become part of the next fallen angels. I am certain you do not wish that.
An Adept is a liberated Soul who chooses to stay on the wheel of life for a while longer to help others. But note that an Avatar is Liberated Tayesin. Also know that it is very rare for a Soul to chose to become an Avatar. "

I do not "seek" it Paul, I have already chosen the next incarnation to follow on my work after the demise of this body.  Please do not be offended by this statement.

"Fallen Angels", this is your belief system talking again Paul.  Please don't minimize me by your beliefs and expectations of what must be.

About teachers Paul...
In the mid to late 70's I had a brilliant teacher, a Rosicrucian (sp) women with clear ability and Sight.  I learned to experience the spirit that I am, in clarity, because of this Lady.  She taught me to hold no concepts about what must be, should be, or could be.  And this I have faithfully continued to do...  not because I believe it to be the better way, but because it has proven itself to be the best way for me... even though I have also tried other ways.

This teacher recognized something and immediately saw into the depths of me.  Within minutes she had me lying on the floor visiting the Akasha, and a quick trip to one past life.  I hold her dear to my heart as the one who first showed me it was Okay to be what I am.

For the past 9 years I have also had a Mentor.  A 70 year old, 32nd Degree Rosicrucian ( or what ever the highest level is ) that is also my greatest supporter.  To quote her from 1998, " You are already way beyond me and what I have experienced."  Please don't see this as ego Paul, it is to show you that everything IS not how Beliefs say they must be.

In the end Paul, if what you are doing is working for you, then that is wonderful and I am happy for you.  

Love always.

PS, When I was a Buddhist, I saw the Dalai Lama once in New Zealand.  We looked into each others eyes and I felt the depth of that beings Compassion.  He smiled into my eyes as we recognized each other.  

Now that Man is what I call a Higher Being.  

[pmlonline]

Dear Tayesin,

Yes, thanks for the post.  You can rest assured that I do not place any emotions in my conversations.  So no, I am not offended.  The reason for my post is to have your words clarified for the sake of others.  That was a major point of my previous post.  Regardless what you meant to say, it's your words that count here.

Perhaps the biggest misunderstanding we have is this.  I always refer to the Lower Self unless otherwise stated.  Although I understand that the Higher Self is part of the Lower Self.  One's Higher Self is included when I state that it is best to follow the path of a Liberated one or teacher of higher vibration.  In other words, by my language, following the Higher Self is indeed following the path of a teacher.
It is my belief that it is best for people to follow the paths as laid out by Liberated Souls.  The path, as laid out by Liberated Souls, does indeed include following the Higher Self.  But until one reaches direct communication with the Higher Self, then it is best to follow the teachings of another liberated teacher.  I must caution that any inner voice must be well tested.  The Desire / Astral body is one's self demons until it is developed and controlled.  It will play the role of Higher Self or whatever it takes to remain in control.

I will reply to your comments in another post so that my main point is not watered down.

Peace & Love,
Paul

[pmlonline]

I will reply to those areas that we either misunderstand or disagree with each other.  I will not comment on any of your personal statements.  All other areas I see that we agree and have clarified.

First I would like to clarify some possible misunderstandings.  I have not stated that any belief system is 100% truth.  I will remind you that the purpose of a spiritual teaching, a group, a path is to speed up spiritual development.  I never stated that one would never outgrow a path.  Again I'll state that the Higher Self is one's best teacher, IMHO.  The teachings I follow teach this.  Although I have never encountered a liberated being who is not part of a spiritual group whether it be on the physical plane, the astral, mental, the buddhic, or higher planes.

Just because one path offers some good things does not imply that it must be doggedly stuck to all the way to the end of the path.

I agree but it also does not mean that we cannot search for a higher path or another teacher of higher vibration.  This often happens early on in ones spiritual development.  Christianity was my first path.  I outgrew it and found another.  I do not need to reinvent a new system.  I would much rather work with a group of spiritual teachers and disciples rather than do my own thing.  I have all the freedom in the world being with a group of high vibration.

You asked, "Does that mean he should stop following the path of others who are beyond?"  ...  You seem to be saying, " Tayesin, you think you are beyond/higher than the adepts and avatars."

I am uncertain how to reply to this.  I was not judging or attacking you.  If you feel that I was, then please show me where I was.  To state that there are beings higher in vibration than you is not a judgment dear Tayesin.  It is a fact.
I know a person that is not even a 3rd degree Initiate that can vanish right before your eyes physically ... poof ... physical is gone ... poof ... physical is there, now across the room.  Does that make my friend a better person?  No.  Does it add some credibility that he's more liberated than most on earth?  Yes.  Does that mean I suddenly trust everything he says?  No.  Trust comes with time.  BTW, when I refer to a 3rd degree Initiate, I am not referring to any organization such as AMORC Rosicrucian, etc.  It is in reference to self-mastery of the three lower vehicles; Mental, Desire / Astral, and Physical.  Note that the Etheric body is part of the Physical world.  A 3rd degree Initiate is liberated from the reincarnation cycle.

The big probem with this type of approach Paul, is, you have absolutely no concept of me and what i am, because you are looking through the windows of your current philosophy or belief-sytem.  In this way you cannot see what is offered to you because it does not and cannot  fit/compute with your view of the way it must be.

Perhaps you could be specific and less broad.  What approach?  You mean the approach of being part of group, working together, and treading a path as laid out by many Adepts?  Also, could you please state where I said to the affect "the way it must be."

You asked, "What limitations might that be dear Tayesin?  So out of respect for those "true" teachers could you please provide a specific example?"
Take christianity for an example.  ...  Take Tibetan Buddhism ... if you are lucky, to reach your High-Self awareness and the Oneness called Nirvana.

Dear Tayesin, did you see my words, "true" teachers?  I am confident that you believe there are paths of higher vibration than the two examples you used.  I am not here to win a debate dear Tayesin, just as I am certain you are not.  Therefore I am puzzled why you would use those two examples.  Perhaps I should have offered an example of a higher teaching.  As an example, please share your thoughts on limitations of the philosophy as taught by the Initiate Max Heindel.  You may not be too aware of his specific teachings so I am not asking you to comment on them, unless you wish.

I think the point was that there are always higher teachings and no excuse not to be part of a group.

"Fallen Angels", this your belief system talking again Paul.  Please don't try to minimize me by your beliefs and expectations of what must be.

I see.  You do not believe that there are beings of the Angelic Kingdom who were held back.  You do not believe in Fallen Angels and Demons?  That is OK.  I am certain you will know of their existence one day.  As a note for you dear Tayesin and not a judgment, I will say this.  One would note that people who choose not to be part of a group, who teach to do your own thing, and who desire to continue reincarnating on the physical plane often are the ones who teach that there are no Fallen Angels.  Scary thing since possession and influence from powerful negatively polarized beings are very real.

For the past 9 years I have also had a Mentor.  A 70 year old, 32nd Degree Rosicrucian ( or what ever the highest level is ) that is also my greatest supporter.  To qoute her from 1998, " You are aleady way beyond me and what I have experienced."  Please don't see this as ego Paul, it is to show you that everything IS not how Beliefs say they must be.

I said that something "must be?"  Could you be more specific and quote me?  I've made statements about history and such.  I've offered some definitions such as 3rd degree Initiate.
Did this person claim a title, 32nd degrees?  It is a big thing amongst Adepts and Initiates of the light to Never claim a title.  You said, "Please don't see this as ego Paul, it is to show you that everything IS not how Beliefs say they must be."  What beliefs are you referring to Tayesin?  The one of that 32nd degree lady?  Again, where is this "must be" coming from?  ...  Not from my words.

The wording of your posts is filled with belief-system words and phrases.  While this is fine for most people Paul, it is not sufficient for me, since I do not attach the same meanings to the words you are using.  At the same time I try to use words that I hope most people can understand, that are different to your's.

What is wrong with a belief-system dear Tayesin?  It means to believe in something.  An Anti-belief system is based on chaos, rebellion, service to self, and dominates in a negatively polarized world.
Your words are the reason for these posts.  My concern is that others who may read your posts might be encouraged to forget about groups and philosophies.  I will state this, the lower planes are more about Self.  The higher planes are more about Others, the Group, Service To Others.  Becoming part of a spiritual group is a good thing.  There are always spiritual groups far beyond anyone on Earth.  Some are on the material plane.  Some are on the Etheric plane.  Some are on planes far beyond the Mental planes.  It is endless.  Avoiding all groups IMHO is a bad thing for positive spiritual development.  I am not suggesting that you are trying to encourage anyone into anything.  What you believe and do is your free will.  I will always offer you my hand for help out of Love dear Tayesin.  I have zero desire to attempt any manipulation in your beliefs or way of being.  Rather, I am concerned with your words, any misunderstandings at Astral Pulse.  It is my right to question you for further details or any misunderstandings.



Love & Peace,
Paul

[Tayesin]

Hi Paul,
Thanks for your reply.

You said, "Again I'll state that the Higher Self is one's best teacher, IMHO. The teachings I follow teach this."

I agree totally Paul.  The difference is this...  I have experienced and merged with the Higher-Self that is Me, no one's teachings were followed to get to there with the exception of the working with Guides in order to awaken to this awareness.  None of it was done by following anyone's belief system, it was my path, here & now.

You said, "I do not need to reinvent a new system. I would much rather work with a group of spiritual teachers and disciples rather than do my own thing."

This is the definitive statement from your post, Paul.  This is your choice, not mine.  And for as long you discuss/argue from the perceptions of your choice, we will continue to disagree on details.

I read the word "Liberated" in your posts and see that the word includes certain meanings relating to the Philosophy you choose to attach to.  I understand it to mean free from the need to reincarnate here on the Earth plane, which I think is the meaning you are intending.  Along with this, is the perception of the word saying that their was something that you needed to be freed from.  If you were not confined and defined by some belief-system, and experienced what you are in the bigger picture, then what is there to be freed from ?

If Liberation means to choose your incarnations in full awareness when you know you do not have to reincarnate anymore, then yes, according to that particular definition, I am liberated, as I have awareness of choosing the lives I Intend to experience here and on other worlds.

The approach I meant is this.....  I post from my experience only, it seems you post based on a philosophy/belief-system.  Because of this, your posts to me are about trying to define me by the perceptions and expectations of that philosophy/belief-system.  And my experience shows me that I cannot be defined by that, I am outside the loop of philosophy Paul, it is one hundred percent Experiential.  No matter what you believe about that.  Said lovingly Paul.

"The way it must be", were not your words, although they are implied by the philosophy you apply to this discussion.  Your chosen philosophy is fine for you Paul, but because it is a philosophy it automatically takes for granted that things must be the way the philosophy states them to be.  And this does not apply to every situation (or every Being incarnate here) that is available for us to experience...  so again we reach it's boundaries.

Paul, you asked me for an example to illustrate that belief-systems have boundaries to them that prevent us from experiencing beyond that limit.  I offered two such examples.  I apologize if they were not what you wanted from me.  Also, I have not read Max's work, I feel no need to do so, as I am already at the Higher-self awareness and about to step 'up' again to the next layer/level.

Some interesting times ahead for me my friend, LOL.  

You said, "I think the point was that there are always higher teachings and no excuse not to be part of a group."

I am not interested in man-written higher teachings Paul.  I can experience for myself what I need to REMEMBER.  We are not here to learn as little souls, we are here to Remember the huge and magnificent Beings that we already are, to know our-Self.  My 'group'(if I have to use that word) exists in the layers above the Astral, and consists of the Beings who support my choices and tasks for my previous incarnatoins, this one and the next.  Their numbers include, the Green Lady ( a large portion of the Gaia Entity), various alien races, the friends from many incarnations in the prior worlds, the angel Uriel, and of course I can't forget the Creative Awareness of this Universe.  I am in good company Paul.  

You said, "One would note that people who choose not to be part of a group, who teach to do your own thing, and who desire to continue reincarnating on the physical plane often are the ones who teach that there are no Fallen Angels."

Paul, I do not subscribe to the notion of Fallen as meaning that their was a state of grace which beings can 'fall' from.  What I see is that these Beings made an Experiential Choice as part of their overall plan of experiences.  For me there can be no value-based judgment applied to those choices, that can be defined as having fallen from grace.  The words are laden with philosophy/belief-system value judgments, which may not apply in the bigger pictures.

About my use of the term "must be".  The philosophical stand point you are using in this discussion brings with it a characteristic of "this is the way it is because those who have followed this path say it is this way".  I am outside of that path Paul and cannot be defined by it's perceptions and beliefs.

You said, "What is wrong with a belief-system dear Tayesin? It means to believe in something. An Anti-belief system is based on chaos, rebellion, service to self, and dominates in a negatively polarized world.
Your words are the reason for these posts. My concern is that others who may read your posts might be encouraged to forget about groups and philosophies."

I think I have spoken about this so often now it is becoming a tad tired.  A belief in Anti-belief is still a Belief.  If we hold no beliefs about how things should be we are open to seeing more clearly what is really there because we are not filtering everything we experience and feel/think through the natural Filters of that belief-system.  

Again, the words used have connotations to them that do not apply in the bigger pictures, even though they may apply to small segregated sections of experiencers.

Paul, is it your Soul's task to show unneeded concern from the basis of an attachment to a chosen belief-system/philosophy ?  Or is it another part that requires you do this ?

What does it really matter if others are reading about how easy it really is to reach our higher-Self awareness, and that by choosing not to follow the old and tried paths we are freed to experience beyond them ?  I see no higher-beings having a problem with this at all, in fact, I am being supported in this task.

The biggest difference between you and I Paul that I see in our posts, is I do not use a philosophy and you do.  The biggest similarity is that we are great Beings incarnating here for our own purposes, the ones that we chose for ourselves.  I am here in the world to continue my work of awakening others to their higher awareness.  This work will be continued in the next incarnation, after the breakdown of what we have in the physical sense now and we are experiencing what we can call 5th density reality.

Like physics, the rules break down at the singularity..  so too does all philosophies and belief-systems.  This is my point.  We are stepping 'up' into higher frequencies and existence layers, and it is my task here to help as many as possible through this phase into clarity of them-Self.  It is what I chose to be born here to do.

Thanks Paul.  I do understand the need to clarify words and phrases used so that as many people as possible can come to understand the Simplicity of our Reality as Great Beings incarnate in this world.

Apologies for the length of this post.

Love Always.

[pmlonline]

Yes, and thank you for the exchange dear Tayesin.

I have experienced and merged with the Higher-Self that is Me

Truly I do not wish to comment on you per say.  I would prefer to keep this impersonal.  I say this because great deals of your comments are about yourself.  From where I come, spiritual groups teach disciples to keep self-attention to an absolute minimum.

no one's teachings were followed to get to there with the exception of the working with Guides in order to awaken to this awareness.  None of it was done by following anyone's belief system, it was my path, here & now.

Did you not say yourself that Christianity got you to a certain distance?  Regardless, I disagree with your conclusion.  I believe everyone is affected by the teachings of the Adepts to some degree.  This planet would have been destroyed without the aid of liberated ones including the Angelic Kingdom.  So here can we can agree to disagree?

You said, "I do not need to reinvent a new system. I would much rather work with a group of spiritual teachers and disciples rather than do my own thing."
... This is your choice, not mine.

Well noted.  Then I understand that you do not or wish not to associate with groups.

I read the word "Liberated" in your posts and see that the word includes certain meanings relating to the Philosophy you choose to attach to.  I understand it to mean free from the need to reincarnate here on the Earth plane ...  If you were not confined and defined by some belief-system, and experienced what you are in the bigger picture, then what is there to be freed from ?

Dear Tayesin, there are laws that govern creation.  Regardless if one chooses a belief system or anti-belief system, but it will not remove those laws in one's existence.  For example, you cannot break the law of karma regardless if you believed 100% that you could.
Liberated means having the freedom to move beyond.  Again, the law of karma binds people to the reincarnation cycle.  Most Liberated people choose to raise their vibration and move beyond the three lower planes.

The approach I meant is this.....  I post from my experience only, it seems you post based on a philosophy/belief-system.

Yes I agree this is one major difference between us.  I really put forth an effort not to draw attention to myself.  It is your right to believe that I know nothing of you intuitively, that I cannot do the things that you say you can do.  There are infinite ways to convey a message without speaking of ones accomplishments and abilities.  It is the undeveloped Desire / Astral body that truly relishes the moment of expressing its power.  It is the Desire body that shall fight to the death for power and a millennia of habits.

Because of this, your posts to me are about trying to define me by the perceptions and expectations of that philosophy/belief-system.

Again dear Tayesin, please understand that my posts are not about you but rather the group.  In this case the group are the people at Astral Pulse.  Yes, I was guided to offer you and two others help, but that help also extends to others by shedding light on paths that have already been laid out by liberated people.  It is the path that you offer to others that I am concerned with Tayesin-- not *you* on the path.  I love you dear Tayesin, but I am not focused on one individual, rather the many.  Perhaps in the future, but for now that focus or concentration is on the many.  One could say that focus is on three people at astral pulse, but no it really isn't.  The three simply were the initial attraction toward the group.

Your chosen philosophy is fine for you Paul, but because it is a philosophy it automatically takes for granted that things must be the way the philosophy states them to be.

Then you do not understand philosophy and science dear Tayesin.  Philosophy and science are not and never have claimed to be the end all be all.  The idea behind science is to understand with best ability all that is observed.  There is no demanding from the true heart of science, no ego.  Perhaps some were hurt from false science though.  Let's not allow those who abused science to taint the very idea of science, the heart of science.  From the physical plane to the highest cosmic realms, science is found.  There are laws built into the very existence of all things that cannot be broken.  The Adepts to the highest Seraphim's understand this.  They understand it and they use it.  It is called science-- Physical science, Astral science, Mental science, and beyond.

I am already at the Higher-self awareness and about to step 'up' again to the next layer/level.  Some interesting times ahead for me my friend, LOL.  

Well good for you.  Shine but always use positive caution my friend.  I enjoy your positive attitude.

You said, "I think the point was that there are always higher teachings and no excuse not to be part of a group."
I am not interested in man-written higher teachings Paul.

As mentioned in previous post-- there are always teachings of a higher vibration and truth from the physical plane to the mental planes to the highest cosmic realms.  As far as Max Heindel, Elder Brothers gave him the information.

My 'group'(if I have to use that word) exists in the layers above the Astral, and consists of the Beings who support my choices and tasks for my previous incarnatoins, this one and the next.  Their numbers include, the Green Lady ( a large portion of the Gaia Entity), various alien races, the friends from many incarnations in the prior worlds, the angel Uriel, and of course I can't forget the Creative Awareness of this Universe.  I am in good company Paul.  

Well good for you again.  As a tool for you and others I wanted to say this.  That before our OBE experiences affect others we should, out of respect for others, do our initial OBE tests.  The first test is for the Etheric body.  As an example one could have a friend in the physical that would place an object at a location and have their friend go there in the Etheric body.  If the Etheric body is well developed then they will get it right every time, 100% accuracy, not 99%
The next test would include the Desire / Astral body.  For this test, one only needs to find an OBE'er who is at the same or higher development.  Such a person is found by focusing on such a person while out of body and going to that person.  The two OBE'ers go to a city in the Astral world and find an object.  When they enter their physical bodies, they call each other on the phone to see if they conceptually agree in detail about the astral object.  The same goes for the Mental planes and so on.

Paul, I do not subscribe to the notion of Fallen as meaning that their was a state of grace which beings can 'fall' from.

It is educational to view the Mental Akashic records of the Angelic Kingdoms past.  This is accurately accomplished when one has truly mastered the three lower bodies.  This was back when the earth was not physical but rather an Etheric planet.  This history is recorded in books from authors such as Max Heindel.  They had their peace period just as earth is about to enter its peace period in a few decades.  Those who would have disrupted the peace period in any way were not allowed to continue their reincarnation on earth.  When teachers speak of fallen angels they are referring to the fact that they were held back.  For those who have developed bodies have the ability to see these cloaked fallen angels.  They are around in great numbers, but very few who have Etheric and Astral sight can see them.  It is our Higher Self and guides that protect us while out of body.  But it is not as though they sit around watching us.  They have a mission and their time is running out.

If we hold no beliefs about how things should be we are open to seeing more clearly what is really there because we are not filtering everything we experience and feel/think through the natural Filters of that belief-system.

A belief system is about being truthful, not about filters.  I believe the filters you and others refer to are the experiences of the undeveloped Desire body.  It is the undeveloped Desire body that filters.  Rather the developed mental unit is a truth seeker and does not filter.  Do you understand what I am saying?

What does it really matter if others are reading about how easy it really is to reach our higher-Self awareness, and that by choosing not to follow the old and tried paths we are freed to experience beyond them?

There is a huge difference between reaching Higher Self awareness and Fusion / Born Again.  It is my will to shed light on what the negative energies are attempting with their great force as their time comes to an end with the dawn of the 1000 years of peace.  That the anti-belief systems, anti-group, desiring the dense planes of existence with reincarnation and lack of liberation is not following the light.  Yes we have our free will and I respect that.  That is one main reason why I do not wish to comment on anyone specifically.  Do I not have the right to shed light on this topic?  

Like physics, the rules break down at the singularity.

One may view a far higher physics theory via a developed desire body with the assistance of the Higher Self by visiting the Halls of Learning in the Astral plane.  Or better yet, for those who have reached true fusion with Higher Self, simply ask.  The Higher Self knows the answer.  The accepted science community reached a material wall quite some time ago.  Hence, they began a new idea as you touched upon.


Love & Peace,
Paul

[daem0n]

someone has to ask this question, so i'll be the messanger to kill
what are the symptoms of undeveloped desire body?
what are the symptoms of developed desire body?
i'll refrain from commenting
thank you

[Tayesin]

1. Did you not say yourself that Christianity got you to a certain distance?  Regardless, I disagree with your conclusion.  I believe everyone is affected by the teachings of the Adepts to some degree.  This planet would have been destroyed without the aid of liberated ones including the Angelic Kingdom.  So here can we can agree to disagree?


2. Dear Tayesin, there are laws that govern creation.  Regardless if one chooses a belief system or anti-belief system, but it will not remove those laws in one's existence.  For example, you cannot break the law of karma regardless if you believed 100% that you could.
Liberated means having the freedom to move beyond.  Again, the law of karma binds people to the reincarnation cycle.  Most Liberated people choose to raise their vibration and move beyond the three lower planes.


3. Yes I agree this is one major difference between us.  I really put forth an effort not to draw attention to myself.  It is your right to believe that I know nothing of you intuitively, that I cannot do the things that you say you can do.  There are infinite ways to convey a message without speaking of ones accomplishments and abilities.  It is the undeveloped Desire / Astral body that truly relishes the moment of expressing its power.  It is the Desire body that shall fight to the death for power and a millennia of habits.


4. Again dear Tayesin, please understand that my posts are not about you but rather the group.  In this case the group are the people at Astral Pulse.  Yes, I was guided to offer you and two others help, but that help also extends to others by shedding light on paths that have already been laid out by liberated people.  It is the path that you offer to others that I am concerned with Tayesin-- not *you* on the path.  I love you dear Tayesin, but I am not focused on one individual, rather the many.  Perhaps in the future, but for now that focus or concentration is on the many.  One could say that focus is on three people at astral pulse, but no it really isn't.  The three simply were the initial attraction toward the group.


5. As mentioned in previous post-- there are always teachings of a higher vibration and truth from the physical plane to the mental planes to the highest cosmic realms.  As far as Max Heindel, Elder Brothers gave him the information.


6. Well good for you again.  As a tool for you and others I wanted to say this.  That before our OBE experiences affect others we should, out of respect for others, do our initial OBE tests.  The first test is for the Etheric body.  As an example one could have a friend in the physical that would place an object at a location and have their friend go there in the Etheric body.  If the Etheric body is well developed then they will get it right every time, 100% accuracy, not 99%
The next test would include the Desire / Astral body.  For this test, one only needs to find an OBE'er who is at the same or higher development.  Such a person is found by focusing on such a person while out of body and going to that person.  The two OBE'ers go to a city in the Astral world and find an object.  When they enter their physical bodies, they call each other on the phone to see if they conceptually agree in detail about the astral object.  The same goes for the Mental planes and so on.


7. It is educational to view the Mental Akashic records of the Angelic Kingdoms past.  This is accurately accomplished when one has truly mastered the three lower bodies.  This was back when the earth was not physical but rather an Etheric planet.  This history is recorded in books from authors such as Max Heindel.  They had their peace period just as earth is about to enter its peace period in a few decades.  Those who would have disrupted the peace period in any way were not allowed to continue their reincarnation on earth.  When teachers speak of fallen angels they are referring to the fact that they were held back.  For those who have developed bodies have the ability to see these cloaked fallen angels.  They are around in great numbers, but very few who have Etheric and Astral sight can see them.  It is our Higher Self and guides that protect us while out of body.  But it is not as though they sit around watching us.  They have a mission and their time is running out.


8. A belief system is about being truthful, not about filters.  I believe the filters you and others refer to are the experiences of the undeveloped Desire body.  It is the undeveloped Desire body that filters.  Rather the developed mental unit is a truth seeker and does not filter.  Do you understand what I am saying?


9. There is a huge difference between reaching Higher Self awareness and Fusion / Born Again.  It is my will to shed light on what the negative energies are attempting with their great force as their time comes to an end with the dawn of the 1000 years of peace.  That the anti-belief systems, anti-group, desiring the dense planes of existence with reincarnation and lack of liberation is not following the light.  Yes we have our free will and I respect that.  That is one main reason why I do not wish to comment on anyone specifically.  Do I not have the right to shed light on this topic?  

Love & Peace,
Paul

Hi Paul,

1. No, I didn't say Christianity got me part of the way.  I learned from it that it was not the way for me.

I see the statement about earth being destroyed if not for the Angelic Kingdom as being a belief only, based on the word of another person.  

Yes, agree to disagree will be fine.

2. My understanding of Karma is different to yours.  I see it only as the mechanics of our choices in life, with no good or bad atachments to it.  I see that we are the one's who choose what contracts we have and what we have manifest through the mechanics of karma.

Is is fine for others who are Liberated to choose to move beyond this world.  I choose to return because of my personal interest and associations with the world's spirit.  

3. Paul, I have not said I believe you know nothing of me Intuitively.  I said you know nothing of Me, and this is very true, you do not, otherwise you would KNOW where I am coming from.

" that I cannot do the things that you say you can do."... dear me.  
Paul, nowhere have I said or implied this to you.  This is a statement from You, not from me.

"Speaking about accomplishments" is a biased Judgment about me Paul.  What I do here is SHARE from my experience so that others can see how easy things really are if we stop complicating things all the time with our addictions to Beliefs.

4. Bears repeating......
"Again dear Tayesin, please understand that my posts are not about you but rather the group.  In this case the group are the people at Astral Pulse.  Yes, I was guided to offer you and two others help, but that help also extends to others by shedding light on paths that have already been laid out by liberated people.  It is the path that you offer to others that I am concerned with Tayesin-- not *you* on the path.  I love you dear Tayesin, but I am not focused on one individual, rather the many.  Perhaps in the future, but for now that focus or concentration is on the many.  One could say that focus is on three people at astral pulse, but no it really isn't.  The three simply were the initial attraction toward the group."

I felt it when you joined AP, Paul.  And I know what is behind it and why.  The disinformation is a dead give-away.

Thank you for affirming what I knew.

5. I agree with your initial statement.  My point always is, why go through those avenues when you can experience and know clarity for yourself much quicker using different methods to the ones you mentioned ?

6. I see this as unnecessary Paul, all of it.  By all means question your reality if needed, and we do know, if we are Honest with ourself.  Again, my other point has always been that if you hold no ideas, expectations, beliefs, or other Attachments there is no impediment to your Clarity, as you can observe and interact with what is there.  Nothing else will be there because you hold a Clear Intent, and no baggage about any of it.

7. I see there are Beings who chose a certain path to experience.  Nothing more and certainly not as fallen angels.  I see that all around us now is the Darkness.  I do not see it as opposed to everything good.  I see it as the other half of this creation in the duality layers.  And once we are free from our blind attachments to Beliefs we can move on to working with the darkness within in order to balance out these 'apparent' opposites.

Also, I see no point in using the Akasha for history lessons when we are here making the future.  

By all means see what the Akasha has to offer you in the way of your growth, because that is what we are all initially here for in the first place... to experience this dense duality layer and again Ascend from a world so that we may choose what world we intend to experience next.

8. Honesty is about being truthfull.

A belief system is something you CHOOSE TO ATTACH TO, to make sense of the world you are in and to alleviate the need to be part of something bigger.  

Honesty is an ACT.  It is what we choose to do.

Beliefs are something we use to navigate this experience until we are cleared of the need to use them.  When attached to a belief system, we automatically filter any experience through the beliefs to have them homogenised with the chosen belief about it.

9. again.. "There is a huge difference between reaching Higher Self awareness and Fusion / Born Again.  It is my will to shed light on what the negative energies are attempting with their great force as their time comes to an end with the dawn of the 1000 years of peace.  That the anti-belief systems, anti-group, desiring the dense planes of existence with reincarnation and lack of liberation is not following the light.  Yes we have our free will and I respect that.  That is one main reason why I do not wish to comment on anyone specifically.  Do I not have the right to shed light on this topic? "

Yes Paul, there is a Vast difference between contacting and merging/being that Higher-Self in the world.  Is is not an easy path to walk despite the inappropriate beliefs about it being blissful..  especially in this western culture, as so many people would assume.

"That the anti-belief systems, anti-group, desiring the dense planes of existence with reincarnation and lack of liberation is not following the light."

This is only an opinion.  It is based on your own beliefs about it.  It is only true for You, and those who believe as you do.  It has no place in reality except for those who want to believe it.

You have as much right to post what you like as anyone else Paul.

Lastly, my postings are always about the Self.  Not the selfish.  The self I refer to always is the Higher-Self.  It is what we are, except most people are not aware of it in themselves.  Even fewer have direct knowledge or personal experience of it as a reality.   It is the the "Self" in "Know Thyself".

My task here is to share that with people, as simply as I can because the reality is Simple.

So the question begs to be asked here, what 'team' is one on who would try to stop the simple sharing of effective methods to experience that Self and Awaken ?

Thank You for more than you know Paul.  

I think I am done with this topic now.

[pmlonline]

Dear daem0n,

The symptoms of an undeveloped desire body are desire for emotions, desire to express power & achievements, desire for excitement, ambition, focus on self, desiring the flesh, etc.
The "desiring of flesh" usually reflects in the desire to continually reincarnate in the flesh.  Often this is a strong indicator that the Shim is being influenced by an external force.  Examples of some possibilities of external forces may be mental bodies or negative beings.

The symptoms of a developed desire body are desire to reflect spiritual Love, humbleness, selflessness, calmness, lack of ambition, desire to help others, etc.

Peace & Love,
Paul