Possible theory of how the universe really started

[ImmuredSoul]

Interesting theory . . . could complicate matters more with explosions and stuff of the like, but I think that at some point I'll just contradict myself, for I have no scientific proof for it all. Oh well . . .

Say the earth exploded (off subject, probably, don't know) and little particals and everything went hurtling through the air . . . at some point an organism hit the ground on a far distant planet and started reproducing, but the organism wasn't acustomed to the planet. But say that overtime, the maybe fourth or fifth became partically accustomed to the planet, and began to grow and multiply until they covered the entire planet -- there's no water, because these organisms don't need it anymore. The organisms start to overpopulate and create some sort of substant that would begin to mutate this one or that one, a whole group, a niche, whatever. Well, the morph into these other beings, and then the population goes through the cycle over and over again until finally, there's millions of different species and everything on the planets. Say that there's another planet out there that has the exact same thing happen, except the results were different, bringing millions more of beings to play. Now, what if these planets weren't really planets, but slow moving astoroids and they crashed into one another or something happens where they start to form into one another, creating a really big planet, that kills them all off . . . what was my point?

[Euphoric Sunrise]

It's an interesting theory of how the universe would have evolved, but started, i'm sorry but i don't think so. The same question that can shoot down any other theory of the start of the universe (at least hte ones i've heard of) remains: where did the hydrogen come from? how did the hydrogen exist if the universe was not yet created?

Please keep in mind that i know absolutely nothing at all about Quantum Metaphysics so i could very well have just put my foot in my mouth []
Come to think of it, how did i get into the Quantum Metaphysics forum in the first place? []

[thelou]

Euphoric Sunrise

quote:where did the hydrogen come from?

God made it.[][]

[Moonburn33]

run a search on "virtual particles"

hydrogen is an electron and a proton.  electrons and protons would have existed before hydrogen.  smaller particles would have made up these particles.  finally, quarks and energy would make up these particles.  thank you for your time.

[thelou]

Cool, thanks.

[kiauma]

So where did the quarks and the energy come from?  []

[Adkha]

quote:Originally posted by thelou

Euphoric Sunrise

quote:where did the hydrogen come from?

God made it.[][]

And where did God came from[]?

[jilola]

Well, in order for "nothing" to exist there has to be "something" to complement it. That "something" got compressed and blown up by the enormity of being "everything". The technical term we Creators use for the event is "Egoburst".
The primordial Ego went nuclear sprainig its primordial pineal glandette thus creating two primordial pineal glandettes which promptly fused to creatte the first functional pinal gland capable of creating what's technically called something the Mods here will normally edit, begins with S ends with T and has four letters.
From this initial egoburst the cycle of bursting and sulking ( the contracting of the burst ego) further stuff got created as the leftover Mojo aka energy.

Got any questions?

Seriously though, the theory presented by the original poster is pretty good save for the question "where did the first atom come from?" which I neatly explained above.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[ImmuredSoul]

quote: where did the hydrogen come from? how did the hydrogen exist if the universe was not yet created?

Who says anything has to come from anywhere?

Time doesn't exist; we're just here, moving in what is called Change. Until time was created, it never existed, so therefore how could it have ever existed? How can is exist now? Drop a ball and see how long it takes to hit the ground. Now how do you actually know how long it took? Time is just something made up so that we, peoples, can keep track of the . . . CHANGES!

What's my point again?

[Gwathren]

It started...well, more-less certain number of billions of years ago. OK, yeah, human brain can't comprehend that. But there was another explanation. According to theory this will happen again, but in the other direction e. g. you know the universe is widening. At one point it will star to get smaller. And then maybe all over again. Will your elements start to dissapear and then come back agfain? Or what?

I don't acutally get the meaning that universe is endless. Something can't be endless. And then again, what starts from where the universe ends? If emptiness, then somewhere emptiness has to end? What is left behind, when universe starts shrinking?

OK, whatever. Anyways, What will happen to your elements, when universe starts shrinking? I think the sun was to kill us in 5 billion years[]..

[weetabix]

quote:Originally posted by ImmuredSoul


Who says anything has to come from anywhere?

-> Cause and effect !

According to me (in agreement with M. Frank Hatem's metaphysics), there's only one place where anything can come from.  It's from nothingless.  Anything else will leave us in the doubt.  Like : "And where did God came from".  Nothingless is the only thing that has no need of cause.  So, does nothingless could have the effects that we know (the form of this universe) ? [For complete answer, read about Frank Hatem..]

brief case of nothingless:
1)Nothingless is nullity which is infinite
2)Infinity is necessarily null
3)But, Nullity has no need of being infinite

Here we got consciousness which is the distinction of nullity from infinity which are an whole into nothingless

All is made from this bipolarity :
Atom -> proton vs electron
Relationship -> me vs others
Morality -> good vs bad
[...]


Enough said. Does it make sense ?
-Weeta

[Moonburn33]

almost every religion says that the universe started off as nothingness.... except for the bible.

the word existed in the beginning.

[weetabix]

Really !?  God damn'it, I only heard about the bible...

Can you tell me more ?

-Weeta

[thelou]

Possible theory of how the universe really started, before the Big Bang

In this topic I would like to throw out another theory that I have heard several times over the years.  It is REALLY out there.  But as difficult to believe, it is also just as difficult to deny as a possibility.  I would be very interested to hear what everyone has to say.

Thanks, and here it is.

Notice, of the thousands of books I have read over the years, I unfortunately cannot back up any of this, because I do not remember who/where I read it.  But this information comes from many different sources.

One of the ways that scientists were able to come up with/offer proof of the Big Bang theory is that they discovered that if you take an element (ANY ELEMENT.?)  And condense it enough that it will have a reaction.  After that reaction there is the original element, and trace evidence of other elements.  (One or more, what ever for the sake of argument).

There has been great controversy over the expansion and contraction of the Universe.  Neal Donald Walsh says this is the breathing in and out of God.

Lets say that the Universe was originally only composed of one element.  Say hydrogen.  It expanded out as far as it could at that time.  Then over time (now and further "time" could be defined as thousands, millions, billions, trillions, of years).

Then this one element condensed back upon itself, much like a star does.

Then it exploded again, this time reproducing the same element and also a second.  This would have been the second element to have ever been created.  Over "time" these elements would have expanded to their capacity and then condensed back again.

Each time this happened a new element, or possible several new elements were literally created new.

Over more millennia than the human brain can comprehend this happened over and over.  Each time a new, or several new elements were created.

This brings us to present day in "time" where we have the elements that we have today.

By studding meteors and such scientists have discovered that there common elements and chemicals throughout the Universe.

This could be the steps in the evolutionary evolvement of the Universe itself.  Each time completely destroying what was, and then giving birth to what is next.

[absinthian]

I can put it down real simple. Nothing means NO LAWS OF PHYSICS. Without laws predicting something, anything can happen. When something happens, and it will for no reason, laws of physics get started.

[beavis]

One of the ways that scientists were able to come up with/offer proof of the Big Bang theory is that they discovered that if you take an element (ANY ELEMENT.?) And condense it enough that it will have a reaction. After that reaction there is the original element, and trace evidence of other elements. (One or more, what ever for the sake of argument).

That only means you can crush atoms to break their nucleus, and that different elements are made of the same thing. A bang there doesnt say anything about if a bang started the universe.


Until science explains paranormal things, which obviously exists, it can only guess how the universe started. The big bang is a theory of how PART of the universe started, which is not implied by any evidence to be the same as how the WHOLE universe started. I do not believe in (notice the religious phrase) the big bang, nor do I believe in any religion.

[knucklebrain1970]

You said - Lets say that the Universe was originally only composed of one element. Say hydrogen


My question, that ends all other questions is. Where did the hydrogen come from - say that it was hydrogen.


Excuse me, I'm just being a wisea**

Interesting stuff none the less.

Kevin

[loco]

Stanislaw Lem wrote a very fun book about stars and space, ..."Diaries from the stars" could be an aproximate translation to english (I read it in Spanish)
Well, one of the chapters is about how the narrator (an astronaut) got involved in the creation of the universe. Goes like this (resumed, off course):
He has a cientist friend that is actually in deep research of the origin of that primary atom that was there waiting to "bang" and give birth to the whole universe. The rest of the science community has let the primary atom aside focusing on the big bang. The primary atom is  too tough...The scientist questions go like: "What was doing there for a whole eternity waiting to explode? If has been a whole eternity waiting, why it didn´t explode an eternity before?"...
After deeper and deeper research and evaluating all the possibilyties, he arrives to the conclusion that that atom actually DID NOT exist,and the universe is actually a MISTAKE.
He knows, as a scientist, that some particles occasionally ,and for an almost impossible to appreciate short period of time, brake the laws of physics. They do something "illegal". That is so short and so unnapreciable that actually does not account for a real change in the overall strucure of the fundaments of physics laws, is just a little prank. And as soon it passes everything is normal again. And under the physics laws track again.
So , he thinks further about it all...and the conclusion is that that primal atom was simply not there.There was nothing, but at a certain point something appears breaking all the rules of non existance.The laws are broken for a second: where it has been nothing for an eternity, suddenly, something appears. This would be unnapreciable under every day time measurments, but that tiny moment took place in the middle of eternity...so that moment turned to be as long as the age of the universe.
After he arrives to that conclusion, his main concern is the following:
If the universe existance is "illegal" it wil sooner or later go back to its "legal" state. That misshap (that little particle) will be corrected and the original nothingness will take place again as it should be.Consequences are horrible to imagine...Everything will suddenly disappear!!!
Then he finds the solution: he builds a machine that can be driven so that sends a particle back in time-space right to the exact  place and moment that little "illegal" particle appeared. Paying off the debt of matter the universe is carrying for so many many years.
As you can imagine , that machine is driven by the narrator; the astronaut. That´s why he says he took an active part in the creation of the universe.

Is really an amazing book. Highly recomended.
Might make sense to the topic here? ....mmmm

[gdo]

Do a google on 'string theory'.  It is about the structure of the smallest particles and how they behave and how, possibly are what all substance is made up of.

[Rob]

Have mentioned before that red shift is not related to the speed of stars relative to us, but some other cosmological factor.
Also I am reading a book by Mead on collective electrodynamics where he shows that our conception of the second law of thermodynamics is only half the story (2nd law = entropy (order) always decreases with time when looking at any complete system). Basically there is an existing level of order that things will always tend towards. SO the two founding principles of big bang, and indeed finite time universe, is ahhh in shaky waters!
Rob

[Psan]

I didn't go through all the posts here, but yes I agree, big bang is a dead theory. Apart from technical difficulties there are big logical ones.

Even if partly correct it will not be a theory of origin of universe, only a possible explaination of some observed phenomena (background radiation, drift and red shift etc). Obviously when time is an illusion, we can't speak of a beginning....can we?

For me, universe is just too complicated to  understand while being in the limitations of a physical body.

[Nightwolf]

For me, universe is just too complicated to understand while being in the limitations of a physical body.

Well not that this body is bad its just that we only use a little piece of our brains and we havent enlightened ourselves to the point of "knowing..."

Just my two penny's
... Hey are you looking at my nickle? O_o

^_^

[Psan]

No, on the contrary, human body is most complex and beautiful thing in the known universe. But it remains true that we need to evolve a bit more before we reach the stage where we can think more than space and time, while still in physical plane.

Hopefully, one should gain more understanding of the world and who he is, when he sheds his body finally. But I guess its not that simple, otherwise there was no reason to be in physical in first place.

[Ben K]

i dont think we need to do any more "evolving". its about changing beliefs, not fact. once you change the beliefs the facts start to manifest.

[Nightwolf]

I completely agree with you Ben but my thing of "evolving" includes ideas in peoples minds, including belief systems