FITNA the Movie (Finally people seem to be waking up)

[abu-usaama]

Ambient Sound
The very fact that you know all this, that you can express it openly, without fear of repercussions makes you part of a civilized society. Like it or not. In Muslim countries there is very little free expression, sharia law, no rights for women who are owned by their husbands, and corruption and all manner of uncivilized things going on. Cutting off hands of a thief, punishing the girl who has been raped rather than the rapist, honor killings, suicide jihadist warriors, kids being told that they get to heaven if they kill Jews and on and on.

Now I only object to the fact that this guy who claims to be American call Muslim countries more civilized than the west. It is absurd. I lived most my adult life some odd 30 years in Muslim countries, I lived in Turkey Iran Afghanistan and Pakistan and I can assure you this is NOT the case.

I would suggest to Osama or whatever that he try to go live in one, or better move to one. He will be dispised for being an American and could get in real big trouble. Anyway he is a young man who loves to do these stunts loves to make these outrageous claims and he really has no idea. Besides that I very much doubt that he is telling the truth. Noone living in America would believe that American or western women cannot go out at night without fear of being right. This is a myth as you well know, yet one that is being told over and over in the mideast. They believe we have sexual relation with animals on a major scale, rape and kill women at will, and generally cook and eat our friends and neighbours. A typical line from clergy in the mideast, watch youtube.YOU know that this is silly.

I tried to define Civilized, and whether you believe that the Western civilization leaves much to be desired it a heck of a lot better than the Mideast..........believe me. I know

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Wrhivp7eQ

i have never personally lived in a Muslim country.

however, one of my friends lived in Jordan for 1 year (he is an American Muslim) and studied in an university there. he was not despised by anyone there and greatly praised the Muslims there in many aspects(he had criticisms as well, in some of their deviation from Islam)

I am living in America and i know in a significant portion of this country, a woman is not truly safe at night. i personally had to pick up a girl who left a house that she was about to be gangraped in, after she asked a group of men for a ride home.

additionally ive personally known a girl who was raped at the age of 11 and consequently was pregnant, and the rapist was never caught.

to be honest, Muslims do not believe that you have sex with animals on a large scale. but we know that you permit it. additionally we know you dont rape and kill women at will, but we know you permit situations in which such instances may be led to occur. additionally, we know you generally dont cook and eat your neighbors, but you allow a tradition of sadism and such "fantasy discussions" to take place without reprecussion.

[abu-usaama]

Okay, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment.

Consider the American system of capitalism. It is a widely accepted fact that the middle class is disappearing as the economy worsens. The middle class gets no assistance from the government. Those who are considered middle class struggle. They make too much to qualify for government assistance and too little to set any of their earnings aside. The government has a lot more control over the poor that it assists. The rich are the ones calling the shots, and there are fewer and fewer of them all the time, and those who remain are getting more and more power.

Consider the crippling effect that corporate America has had on our legal system. Why does our health system require expensive insurance from companies who may at any time choose not to pay for one's cancer treatments or vitally important operations? Why do we pay house insurance, car insurance, medical and dental insurance, put money away for retirement, federal and state income taxes, social security (which is failing miserably, by the way), soaring gas prices, electric, water, and oil? And on top of that, people pay for cable TV, internet, phones, and other services, IF they can even afford them.

Is it not obvious that our capitalist system benefits from people who pile on their responsibilities to someone else? This is what creates jobs, after all- supply and demand.

After 9/11, I was sickened by how quickly corporations were making money off of peoples' patriotism fad. Our country, said to be civilized by some, is without morals, and what "words of wisdom" are spoken have only face value, because those who speak them really have selfish intentions of gaining positions of power. Their philosophy is that the masses are cattle to be herded and manipulated. I draw this conclusion from my own personal observations of daily life here.

The greenhouse gas crisis is going to be VERY profitable for those oil tycoons. They have the money to buy out every solar field, wind farm, and water turbine in the country, if they wanted to, and they will charge a lot of money for their services. This will give them great leverage in the legislative decisions made in Washington DC.

So what does all this mean? It means capitalism is slavery, which is uncivilized. I would rather live in a cave and do my own hunting, farming, and gathering. Of course, doing that in this country is illegal, as all buildings and shelters legally require electricity and running water.

So while I do not disagree that there are problems and issues in the Islamic world, I will never call America a civilized country.

Bravo!

[abu-usaama]

You make valid points, Mustardseed. Freedom of speech is one thing I cherish. I think it is uncivilized of our government to threaten our freedoms with stupid laws, like what Bush has done. However, I think it is civilized to defend freedom.

I know the examples of which you speak, and Iran and Afghanistan are most guilty of these things. Still, it would be foolish of me to say that I know anything about Islamic culture, since I lack experience living amongst Muslims. Therefore, I must ask Osama a few questions:

How does the nation of Islam define love?

How does the nation of Islam define freedom, and how does it regard freedom? Is it important? Why or why not?

What are the effects of fear-based reactions/decisions versus love-based reactions/decisions? How do these emotions affect people?

Why does the Nation of Islam believe homosexuality is wrong? Could there, perhaps, be a rational explanation for this, such as the prevention of spreading STDs, rather than homosexuality being an abomination? My best friends are bisexual and they are more honorable than most.

Why aren't women, the other half of humanity, treated as equals? Do you think any free-thinking woman would ever convert herself to Islam?





Mustardseed is right about women in America. They are not afraid to go out alone at night. He is also right about women in Islam. I saw live footage of the day when America liberated Afghanistan from Taliban rule. The women were so ecstatic they looked like teens at a rock concert.

One other thing I would like to say to Usaama-

All of the examples of American atrocities can be found in any culture around the world. What do you believe makes Western societies worse than other cultures?

It is a constant battle to retain one's freedom. Once you are free from having to battle others, like enemies on a conquest, you are free to battle yourself. The battle that counts most is the one that is fought within.

I rather disagree with organized religion in general. I think it causes more problems than it solves. There are too many mistakes with translations, inaccurate historical references, books that have been taken out/put in by unscrupulous tyrants, etc. along with people who interpret the texts literally and out of their historical contexts. Let's not forget that there are a few versions of the Quaran as there are with the Bible. Too many wars have been fought over religion, even between different sects of the same religion. It is ridiculous and that is why no Muslim will ever see me convert to Islam, nor will Christianity see me a Christian, nor Judaism see me as a Jew. I will not even join Hindu or Buddhism.

I follow my heart and I learn from all paths, but I forge my own.

Secularism is the disease that i believe is most abhorent.

there are different types of love according to the teachings of Islam.

one type is the kind the God places between a husband and his wife:

And among His Signs is this, that He created for you wives from among yourselves, that you may find repose in them, and He has put between you affection and mercy. Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who reflect. [Qur'an 30:21 interpretation of meaning]

another kind is the relationship of love between God and His servants. One of God's names is Al-Wudood which means "The Most Loving"

"And He is Oft-Forgiving, full of love (Al-Wudood)" [Qur'an 85:14]

additionally a believer is to love God more than anything else.


As for love for non-believers, then this issue may fall into two categories.

1) natural love

2) honourable abhorrance.

one may love a person out of one's concern for them and natural instincts, but one must abhor them for their beliefs if they are polytheistic.


As for freedom, this particular quote from Sayyid Qutb's (May God have mercy on him) work, Milestones (http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/milestones/hold/chapter_4.asp)
should be sufficient:

"This religion is really a universal declaration of the freedom of man from servitude to other men and from servitude to his own desires, which is also a form of human servitude; it is a declaration that sovereignty belongs to God alone and that He is the Lord of all the worlds. It means a challenge to all kinds and forms of systems which are based on the concept of the sovereignty of man; in other words, where man has usurped the Divine attribute. Any system in which the final decisions are referred to human beings, and in which the sources of all authority are human, deifies human beings by designating others than God as lords over men. This declaration means that the usurped authority of God be returned to Him and the usurpers be thrown out-those who by themselves devise laws for others to follow, thus elevating themselves to the status of lords and reducing others to the status of slaves. In short, to proclaim the authority and sovereignty of God means to eliminate all human kingship and to announce the rule of the Sustainer of the universe over the entire earth. In the words of the Qur'an:

"He alone is God in the heavens and in the earth." (43:84)

"The command belongs to God alone. He commands you not to worship anyone except Him. This is the right way of life." (12: 40)

"Say: O People of the Book, come to what is common between us: that we will not worship anyone except God, and will not associate anything with Him, and will not take lords from among ourselves besides God; and if they turn away then tell them to bear witness that we are those who have submitted to God." (2: 64)

The way to establish God's rule on earth is not that some consecrated people - the priests - be given the authority to rule, as was the case with the rule of the Church, nor that some spokesmen of God become rulers, as is the case in a 'theocracy'. To establish God's rule means that His laws be enforced and that the final decision in all affairs be according to these laws.
"

As for the idea of freedom of religion:

"It is not the intention of Islam to force its beliefs on people, but Islam is not merely 'belief'. As we have pointed out, Islam is a declaration of the freedom of man from servitude to other men. Thus it strives from the beginning to abolish all those systems and governments which are based on the rule of man over men and the servitude of one human being to another. When Islam releases people from this political pressure and presents to them its spiritual message, appealing to their reason, it gives them complete freedom to accept or not to accept its beliefs. However, this freedom does not mean that they can make their desires their gods, or that they can choose to remain in the servitude of other human beings, making some men lords over others. Whatever system is to be established in the world ought to be on the authority of God, deriving its laws from Him alone. Then every individual is free, under the protection of this universal system, to adopt any belief he wishes to adopt. This is the only way in which 'the religion' can be purified for God alone. The word 'religion' includes more than belief; 'religion' actually means a way of life, and in Islam this is based on belief. But in an Islamic system there is room for all kinds of people to follow their own beliefs, while obeying the laws of the country which are themselves based on the Divine authority."

Our problem with "secularism" and western forms of "democracy" is that they are not truly free systems. A system in which man is the one obeyed is a system of enslavement. A system in which the unfathomable God is obeyed alone, is a free system. Capitalism is just another manifestation of slavery to wealth, men, and corporations, in that such can legislate how they please,  barring people from following God alone.


Worship in Islam is seen as consisting of three parts in balance: love, hope, and fear. if one's worship is completely based on love, without hope or fear, then this is inadequate. and if ones worship is completely based on hope (for God's reward[paradise]), without love or fear, then this is inadequate. and of worship is solely based on fear(of God's punishment), without love or hope, then this inadequate.

Homosexuality is an abomination. it goes against the natural ordination that God has decreed of human beings. STD's is a result of illicit sexual behavior, as the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) explained:

Abdullaah bin 'Umar may Allaah be pleased with him reported that: "The Prophet sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ) approached us once and said: "It is never that immorality (i.e. adultery, fornication and sodomy) prevails in a people to the extent that they do it openly, except that there will appear in them diseases that were unknown to their predecessors."" [Al-Haakim]

this is how it has occurred. AID's is a fairly recent disease.

However, the absence of diseases does not mean the absence of sinfulness for the deed (homosexuality [or fornication]). Homosexuality, in particular, is seen as an perversion. A mention of the story of Lot in the Qur'an demonstrates this:

"The prople of Lout (Lot) (those dwelt in the towns of Sodom in Palestine) belied the Messengers.

When their brother Lout (Lot) said to them: "Will you not fear Allah and obey Him?

"Verily! I am a trustworthy Messenger to you.

"So fear Allah, keep your duty to Him, and obey me.

"No reward do I ask of you for it (my Message ), my reward is only from the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

"Go you in unto the males of mankind,

"And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your wives? Nay, you are a trespassing people!"

[26:160-165]

God created women for us  to be our wives. Leaving them for men is a perversion and a deviation from the natural way that God has laid down for us. This is why homosexuality is forbidden.



The majority of converts to Islam in the 20th/21st century are women.


The media shows you some, yet hides most.


All the examples of American atrocities can NOT be found in every culture around the world. America is the only country to have ever used atomic bombs on people (heroshima and nagasaki). America firebombed tokyo , used flamethrowers in war. Muslim atrocities have never ever matched with atrocities attributed to America.

I think you should not stroke your paint too far. you should consider Islam. Your biases are really just that, biases.

Say: "Verily, Allah's Guidance is the only guidance, and we have been commanded to submit (ourselves) to the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists); [Qur'an 6:71]

[Mustardseed]

Hi Osama
You seem to have plenty of time on your hands, something I do not. In this short post I shall attempt to explain my point of view and will include a few clips that I would ask you to check out.

Our disagreement seem to stem from a few things. Firstly we seem to disagree on the definition of "Civilized". I believe that it is possible to be civilized WITHOUT embracing Islam, and you believe that it is impossible to be civilized without following Islam.

If this is the case we need to define the word we are discussing.......... Civilized. If to you being civilised means being Muslim, then we have nothing to discuss, if we decide to use the dictionary definition of civilized we can discuss this issue.

Some of the most common ways a Muslim manages to keep the upper hand in a discussion such as this, is to attack the religion or political system of his/her opponent, thus sending the discussion into gridlock and as a result, Islam is never really discussed. The other way is  by answering with very long post, quotes and counter claims WITHOUT answering the issues brought forth, which has the same effect has the same effect. This is very clearly seen in the first Video clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYB4pG3kHIY





The answer to the Immam, is that while there has been various wars and atrocities committed by a multitude of different people throughout the history of the world, Islam is the ONLY religion, and the KORAN is the only sacred book which contains COMMANDMENTS for its followers to kill the ones who believe differently. You will naturally say that the jewish Old Testament contains similar commandments, but it does not. The commandment was for a specific region and people, the Cananites and whether oine believes it actually happened or not, it was NOT a commandment to spread the beliefs of the Jews to the entire world by violence. Islam is unique in this.

Secondly I would ask you to consider this. If there had been no America YOU would probably not have been born. For sure you would not be where you are. It is the American Civilization who has made it possible for you to be free. You have never had to suffer poverty, injustice and discrimination like you would have, had you been born to a Jewish mother and a Palestinian father in the mideast. You would be outcasts if you had tried to settle in a Muslim country.

It is normal for a young person to rebel against the norm. It is hardwired into us. Many young Muslims therefore in Islamic countries, have therefor been caught up in this religious fervor, and radicalized to satisfy their youthful dreams. Nothing wrong with that. Youth thirsts after righteousness. In America it is a similar mecanism. Young Muslims rebel against the sneaking secularism that is eating away at their parents generation, many of whom are only Muslim in word. They have taught you that it is possible to live in peace in a forign land have American friends etc something the Koran strictly forbids, and so you rebel as well. Yet you have also been living in America, and know its evil. Since you see the world around you as horrible at times, you have bought into the notion that if only Islam would be ruling all this would end.

In this you make a mistake. I have lived a lifetime in Muslim countries and believe me it is WORSE. This is very hard for you to believe  but it is the truth. Since you have not, you do not have the ability to discuss this issue, because all you can do is show me articles, sermons etc of how things should be in a perfect world, made by people who has it their vested interest in making you believe that ISLAM is the answer to all lifes problems...........it is NOT. You will see this as you grow older.

I find it hard to discuss with you, not because I do not want to hear your points of view, but  because you make claims you can not verify, and expect them to be taken for reality. You might as well say that all roads are paved with gold in the mideast and stick to it. People have told you, you have heard it on the YOUTUBE, you read articles about it on the net, and a friend even brought you back a small piece of it as proof.

A small amount of Gold does not mean that the roads are paved with it however but you have CHOSEN to believe in your teachers and friends, rather than in those who tell you the brutal truth......it is a lie. It crushes you, and in your mind you counciously make a choice to perpetrate the lies by defending them, quoting all the same sermons and tube clips you were "fed" and attacking viciously anyone who claims to know better, anyone who have seen ISLAM in real life.

This is your choice and such is life, people do this in totalitarian systems all the time, simply because they are afraid of facing up to the social disaster of being ostracized by friends and family.

BUT remember this........you are accountable for the truth. Never tell someone that something is true before you have seen it with your own eyes. Stay open and use your common sense, weigh everything you tell others on a scale of truth......cause if you do not you lead them astray into darkness and lies.

Think about it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WLoasfOLpQ&feature=related

This clip says it all, very interesting, I would like to ask your comment on it.

[abu-usaama]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WLoasfOLpQ&feature=related

This clip says it all, very interesting, I would like to ask your comment on it.

its dumb.

[Mustardseed]

well thank you Osama, your  comment says it all. LOL all it does is confirm my opinion that you are indeed very young and rather "uncivilized".

For your information it is good manners refined and "civilized", to attempt to have a conversation, an actual exchange of ideas, with people you are at odds with.

To comment by saying "its dumb" is rather unrefined ignorant and quite offensive. No  further explanation no reasoning just the same old re reiteration of former sentiments.

It confirms to me that you are quiet an ignorant and rather stupid, yes stupid, young man.

stu·pid (stpd, sty-)
adj. stu·pid·er, stu·pid·est
1. Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
2. Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.
3. Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.


But then again how can I claim such things, you are by your own admission a Muslim and superior to infidels like myself, more civilized.

And to all of you out there who perchance happen on this exchange of words.......make up your own minds

Thankyou

[abu-usaama]

well thank you Osama, your  comment says it all. LOL all it does is confirm my opinion that you are indeed very young and rather "uncivilized".

For your information it is good manners refined and "civilized", to attempt to have a conversation, an actual exchange of ideas, with people you are at odds with.

To comment by saying "its dumb" is rather unrefined ignorant and quite offensive. No  further explanation no reasoning just the same old re reiteration of former sentiments.

It confirms to me that you are quiet an ignorant and rather stupid, yes stupid, young man.

stu·pid (stpd, sty-)
adj. stu·pid·er, stu·pid·est
1. Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
2. Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.
3. Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.


But then again how can I claim such things, you are by your own admission a Muslim and superior to infidels like myself, more civilized.

And to all of you out there who perchance happen on this exchange of words.......make up your own minds

Thankyou

well, good luck with your pathetic existence

[AmbientSound]

Usaama, what is secularism? I am not sure I understand your definition of this word.

I believe it is important for people to live in a FREE society where they agree to follow certain rules, laws, and codes. We have to go on what we have in common, what we are collectively willing to tolerate, and what we are not. Here in America, we elect people who are good at solving issues that we collectively face. We elect these people to help us come to a decision about what method should be used to deal with a problem such as a natural disaster, economic problems, what to do if our country is attacked, etc. It is not like being ruled by a monarch, whose word is law. I think this is where misunderstandings are found with America to the Islamic people.

Our government is divided into the federal level, the state level, the county level, and the municipal level. This is to ensure that groups of people can better customize laws for their region and community, where they may have distinguishing preferences or beliefs that set them apart from the rest of the state or country. it is really a brilliant system, if you examine it. The only issue lately is that we have given the federal government more power than it really should have. As you may have read on our dollar bill, "In God we trust," and in our Pledge of Allegiance, you may recall the phrase "One nation, under God." Thus, Islam cannot claim that the United States is enslaved in this way. Since Islamic nations also use monetary systems to deal with trade and exchange, it is not free by MY own definition either.

We all pay our taxes, even though we don't want to. We do it because we recognize that they go to a greater good, that the money is being used to benefit everyone. That is not to say that government is without corruption, as I'm sure you are aware. I am simply pointing out that taxes fund our schools, our police officers, the maintenance of roads and highways, etc. EVERYONE uses some combination of these services, and is therefore responsible for helping out with them.

As for freedom, I do not see how servitude (as opposed to slavery) causes one to be without freedom. If I am serving the people around me, it's because I wish to improve their situation in some way, not because I've got somebody with a whip cracking at my back. If I free myself from serving my fellow man to serve Allah, then how am I free? I'm just replacing one party I am serving with another. Not only that, but I am serving one instead of many. It is no different than moving from one nation to another (Islam is a nation, is it not?). Thus, I fail to see how freedom remains freedom in the Islamic faith. It is not in the nature of a human being to worship a god that someone is trying to force them to believe in. Those who do convert are just lying to their oppressors to stay alive. I am certain that they continue their original religious practices in the privacy of their own homes- unless Muslim barbarians come barging in every now and then just to check on them.

By Islam's definition of freedom, you are anarchists. You claim that you do not believe in being ruled by any man, which is the very definition of anarchy. You claim to be ruled by a higher being that nobody has ever seen, one that has never actually been proven to exist. That is not even inside the definition of theocracy. I could claim to be ruled by a higher being too, but who would believe me? I don't have a holy book like the Muslims.

I very strongly believe that one should contribute as often as possible to the well-being of their community. Now, here is a little secret very few people realize: When you are spreading the good energy and deeds to others, be sure to include yourself. That way, everyone, including you, benefits, and nobody is left worrying about you. It is a greater service to do this than to only serve others.

There is a difference between servitude and slavery. Slavery is what happens when someone makes demands of another, without offering something in return, and threatens them in some way, either by jeopardizing their health or that of their loved ones (well well, sounds a bit like terrorism, doesn't it?). Terrorism is attempted slavery. They kill innocent people who have nothing to do with their problems, and they refuse to understand that free will is SACRED, even in their religion. They do not reason, they kill and make demands. THAT is not civilized behavior.

As for polytheists, I know a couple and they are decent people. I do not abhor them, as I see no logic in doing so. I fraternize with and befriend those who practice magic, Druids, Sages, Witches and Wizards alike. I am more likely to befriend these kinds of people than a Southern Baptist priest or a Mormon priest. I abhor authoritarian religion. If two of my friends cannot get along with each other, I make sure that I do not put them in each others' company and both remain my friends.

Aren't Muslims polygamists in the afterlife? And who ever said the 72 virgins were women? You can't get a disease in heaven.

"God created women for us  to be our wives. Leaving them for men is a perversion and a deviation from the natural way that God has laid down for us. This is why homosexuality is forbidden."

I strongly disagree with this statement, first because homosexuality is not perverse (because that is a subjective viewpoint), and second because it does not answer my original question as to why women are not treated as equals. They have feelings, just like men, and in America, they make better students and sometimes even better leaders. They are often delicate and beautiful, sensitive, and they are happiest when they are free. I speak from first-hand observation. A woman who is free is more likely to tell you the truth and be with you because she wants to be. Women want a guy who is going to respect them and has standards, not treat them like a subordinate. I have a hard time believing that any woman in  her right mind would convert to Islam, especially since she might have to endure genital mutilation. What's wrong with a woman experiencing pleasure during sex? What is the purpose of her genitalia, then, if God says "snip-snip?" Doesn't that imply that Allah is imperfect in his ability to create? Or does he just hate women so much that he creates them with this part of their body so that they can endure the agony of having it removed later on?

Here in America, women and men date each other, and have equal say in the relationship. This gives more likelihood that we will find the person who gets along with us best. The relationship is not based on some mandate that someone scribbled onto paper, it is based on the connections of the mind, body, and spirit. I seek a woman to connect with on a multitude of levels.

Is there any link between the women-converts and the country of Iran? And how do I know that the converts aren't converting because they were threatened?


Usaama, have you ever read Sun Tsu's "The Art of War?" It offers philosophies on combat. You should also look at " The Book of Five Rings," written by the legendary Japanese sword master, Musashi. It may give you a better understanding of Japan's combat mentality.

I have studied seven martial arts, some of which were so brutal I could not make the connections myself of what move to do next. But I understand now why it is necessary to know such tactics. In a violent confrontation, there is no time to think. One must act quickly and waste as little time and energy as possible when incapacitating their attacker (all honorable martial arts practice and preach never throwing the first strike, so if there is violence, it does not begin with us, it ends with us). The Chinese word "Wushu" actually translates to "the art of stopping a fight."

It was Japan that attacked America in WWII, absolutely unprovoked. The atom bomb was used for two reasons: first, to show Nazi Germany that we beat them to the development of it so that they would be far more likely to surrender, and second, so that Japan would surrender. We warned them in advance and they did nothing. They didn't surrender after the first one was dropped, remember that. We weren't out to rule over their country, we just wanted them to leave us alone and all other methods failed. Also remember the Samurai mentality of Japanese warriors. Like Islam's suicide bombers, they would crash their planes into American warships and other targets.

By a martial artist's standpoint, the Japanese delivered the first blow, and America the final blow.

I am by no means suggesting that the detonation of the atom bomb was not a horribly tragic event, but given the circumstances at the time, it was necessary.


As for other atrocities committed in America that can be found elsewhere, go visit South America and Mexico, China, Japan, Russia, just about any nation on the African continent, and Australia. Oh, let's not forget North Korea, where they FORCE Christianity on their citizens, and Iran, which will not allow women U.S. citizens to leave without their husband's permission, if the husband is an Iranian citizen (there was a movie made about this, called "Not without my daughter," and I'm sure you can find it, or parts of it, on Youtube somewhere, if you care to watch).

When it comes to the truth, there are only two things to observe, my friend: Cause and effect. I should state here that it is folly for ANY human being to even begin to say that they understand God. You don't understand God and neither do I, so why should we allow another human being to tell us about God? Just because it's in a book that someone claims to be holy doesn't make it true. I challenge you with one final question: Where is the historical evidence that Muhammed ever moved a mountain? (you may not use your book as a source unless it provides viable dates and references).

I am capable of both detecting and using subtle (spiritual) energies. Within one year, I doubled my salary, acquired a brand-new gas-efficient car, and found the best deal on an apartment in my area. And I am not of Islam. So if Allah hates me so much, he's doing a tinkle-poor job of stopping me from living a good life.

I still maintain that organized religion is a control mechanism used by the elite to manipulate the masses. Its purpose is to simply make sure that the common people of the world never unite. If Islam maintains its attitude toward infidels, then organized religion will have done what it was invented to do.

[AmbientSound]

Confucious say, "Man who fart in church sit in own pew."

[Mustardseed]

well, good luck with your pathetic existence

You see Osama this is where you and I differ. You say you live by a book of rules that you follow, and that following these rules makes God like you better than me.Yet you are a hypocrite who claims one thing and does another.

Let me teach you a few things. First of all, Sarcasm is forbidden in Islam, did you know that.

15) It is of the adab of the high path of Islam to completely abandon and shun guile, deceit, scornfulness, or sarcasm because these are unlawful. Allah Most High says, "O you who believe, let no men scorn other men, for they might well be better than they are. And let no women scorn other women, for they might well be better than they. And do not find fault with one another, or give each other insulting nicknames" (Qur'an 49:11).

Do you not find it odd that I a infidel, am the one to steer you on to the proper path. Mind your words my little friend, for in words, you show what you really are.

This is what I have against you who follow Islam and call yourselves Moslem. You are hypocrites and you are liers. Its that simple. How can you build a good society with and among people who are liers and hypocrites. You cannot, it has never been done and it will never happen. No government can ever exist in peace and no great civilization can ever be built on a lie. It is simply not possible. It defies common sense. It would mean that you would never know where you had people, it would and does create injustice and confusion on a massive scale. This is the very reason the Califate will never be a reality, and this is the reason the Muslim world ceased to exist as a power to be counted on.

Let me explain so you understand it better and think about the implications in a modern world. According to the Koran it is ok to tell lies it is in some cases even commanded. Here are some text on the Hadith

(16) It is of the adab of the high path of Islam to abandon lying, for it is unlawful. Allah Most High curses liars by saying, "May liars be slain" (Qur'an 51:10), in which slain means "cursed" according to the Arabic idiom likening the accursed, who loses every good and happiness, to the slain, who loses life and every blessing. The Qur'anic exegete al-Khazin notes that "May liars be cursed" originally referred to those who sat on the various roads outside Mecca warning people against the words of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) to keep them from becoming Muslim. The verse, however, like other Qur'anic verses, is not limited to the original circumstances in which it was revealed, but applies universally, to the end of time. Those who lie, except in circumstances in which Sacred Law permits it, are cursed by Allah.

(SO FAR SO GOOD OSAMA< HOWEVER>>>>)

(17) It is unlawful to lie, except when making up between two people, or lying to an enemy in war, or to one's wife. It is also unlawful to praise or blame another with an untruth. The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "Lying is wrong, except in three things: the lie of a man to his wife to make her content with him; a lie in war, for war is deception; or a lie to settle trouble between people" (Ahmad, 6.459. H). Ibn Jawzi has said, "The criterion for it is that every praiseworthy objective in Sacred Law that cannot be brought about without lying is permissible to lie for if the objective is permissible, and obligatory to lie for if the objective is obligatory." When lying is the only way to attain one's right, one may lie about oneself or another, provided it does not harm the other. And it is obligatory to lie to if necessary to protect a Muslim from being murdered. But whenever one can accomplish the objective by words that merely give a misleading impression with actually being false, it is unlawful to tell an outright lie, because it is unnecessary.

I believe that this mixture of lies and truth is why Islam came to an end centuries ago, and why it is never to rise again. You are untrustworthy. WE the people of other countries unfettered by your book now knows that to us you are liers, you are sanctioned by your prophet to deceive us and do so all the time. NOTE the word OBLIGATORY.

I suspect that you are not aware of these things. How would you like to be the wife of a husband who has been given the privilege to lie to you with Gods book in his hand, about money matters infidelity etc etc. How do you think you could EVER live in a world with people that you are allowed to decieve. This is what your religios leaders in your sacred ISALAM does all the time. This why a discussion with Moslems, be it on the net or youtube or in person ALWAYS ends up in  confusion. You do not have to follow the same rules as we do, you can lie and decieve in your arguments, and do so all the time.

The fact is that most of the millions of Muslims in the world want to be respected as truthful people, while they follow a book that teaches that it is ok to lie......to us. You see the problem. It is huge. Then when they are faced with this fact they turn to sarcasm and name calling, something they are strictly forbidden..............go figure.

Civilized.................I think not

Think about it, now that is what I call a pathetic religion

pa·thet·ic   –adjective
1. causing or evoking pity, sympathetic sadness, sorrow, etc.; pitiful; pitiable: a pathetic letter; a pathetic sight. 
2. affecting or moving the feelings. 
3. pertaining to or caused by the feelings. 
4. miserably or contemptibly inadequate

[abu-usaama]

Usaama, what is secularism? I am not sure I understand your definition of this word.

I believe it is important for people to live in a FREE society where they agree to follow certain rules, laws, and codes. We have to go on what we have in common, what we are collectively willing to tolerate, and what we are not. Here in America, we elect people who are good at solving issues that we collectively face. We elect these people to help us come to a decision about what method should be used to deal with a problem such as a natural disaster, economic problems, what to do if our country is attacked, etc. It is not like being ruled by a monarch, whose word is law. I think this is where misunderstandings are found with America to the Islamic people.

Our government is divided into the federal level, the state level, the county level, and the municipal level. This is to ensure that groups of people can better customize laws for their region and community, where they may have distinguishing preferences or beliefs that set them apart from the rest of the state or country. it is really a brilliant system, if you examine it. The only issue lately is that we have given the federal government more power than it really should have. As you may have read on our dollar bill, "In God we trust," and in our Pledge of Allegiance, you may recall the phrase "One nation, under God." Thus, Islam cannot claim that the United States is enslaved in this way. Since Islamic nations also use monetary systems to deal with trade and exchange, it is not free by MY own definition either.

We all pay our taxes, even though we don't want to. We do it because we recognize that they go to a greater good, that the money is being used to benefit everyone. That is not to say that government is without corruption, as I'm sure you are aware. I am simply pointing out that taxes fund our schools, our police officers, the maintenance of roads and highways, etc. EVERYONE uses some combination of these services, and is therefore responsible for helping out with them.

As for freedom, I do not see how servitude (as opposed to slavery) causes one to be without freedom. If I am serving the people around me, it's because I wish to improve their situation in some way, not because I've got somebody with a whip cracking at my back. If I free myself from serving my fellow man to serve Allah, then how am I free? I'm just replacing one party I am serving with another. Not only that, but I am serving one instead of many. It is no different than moving from one nation to another (Islam is a nation, is it not?). Thus, I fail to see how freedom remains freedom in the Islamic faith. It is not in the nature of a human being to worship a god that someone is trying to force them to believe in. Those who do convert are just lying to their oppressors to stay alive. I am certain that they continue their original religious practices in the privacy of their own homes- unless Muslim barbarians come barging in every now and then just to check on them.

By Islam's definition of freedom, you are anarchists. You claim that you do not believe in being ruled by any man, which is the very definition of anarchy. You claim to be ruled by a higher being that nobody has ever seen, one that has never actually been proven to exist. That is not even inside the definition of theocracy. I could claim to be ruled by a higher being too, but who would believe me? I don't have a holy book like the Muslims.

I very strongly believe that one should contribute as often as possible to the well-being of their community. Now, here is a little secret very few people realize: When you are spreading the good energy and deeds to others, be sure to include yourself. That way, everyone, including you, benefits, and nobody is left worrying about you. It is a greater service to do this than to only serve others.

There is a difference between servitude and slavery. Slavery is what happens when someone makes demands of another, without offering something in return, and threatens them in some way, either by jeopardizing their health or that of their loved ones (well well, sounds a bit like terrorism, doesn't it?). Terrorism is attempted slavery. They kill innocent people who have nothing to do with their problems, and they refuse to understand that free will is SACRED, even in their religion. They do not reason, they kill and make demands. THAT is not civilized behavior.

As for polytheists, I know a couple and they are decent people. I do not abhor them, as I see no logic in doing so. I fraternize with and befriend those who practice magic, Druids, Sages, Witches and Wizards alike. I am more likely to befriend these kinds of people than a Southern Baptist priest or a Mormon priest. I abhor authoritarian religion. If two of my friends cannot get along with each other, I make sure that I do not put them in each others' company and both remain my friends.

Aren't Muslims polygamists in the afterlife? And who ever said the 72 virgins were women? You can't get a disease in heaven.

"God created women for us  to be our wives. Leaving them for men is a perversion and a deviation from the natural way that God has laid down for us. This is why homosexuality is forbidden."

I strongly disagree with this statement, first because homosexuality is not perverse (because that is a subjective viewpoint), and second because it does not answer my original question as to why women are not treated as equals. They have feelings, just like men, and in America, they make better students and sometimes even better leaders. They are often delicate and beautiful, sensitive, and they are happiest when they are free. I speak from first-hand observation. A woman who is free is more likely to tell you the truth and be with you because she wants to be. Women want a guy who is going to respect them and has standards, not treat them like a subordinate. I have a hard time believing that any woman in  her right mind would convert to Islam, especially since she might have to endure genital mutilation. What's wrong with a woman experiencing pleasure during sex? What is the purpose of her genitalia, then, if God says "snip-snip?" Doesn't that imply that Allah is imperfect in his ability to create? Or does he just hate women so much that he creates them with this part of their body so that they can endure the agony of having it removed later on?

Here in America, women and men date each other, and have equal say in the relationship. This gives more likelihood that we will find the person who gets along with us best. The relationship is not based on some mandate that someone scribbled onto paper, it is based on the connections of the mind, body, and spirit. I seek a woman to connect with on a multitude of levels.

Is there any link between the women-converts and the country of Iran? And how do I know that the converts aren't converting because they were threatened?


Usaama, have you ever read Sun Tsu's "The Art of War?" It offers philosophies on combat. You should also look at " The Book of Five Rings," written by the legendary Japanese sword master, Musashi. It may give you a better understanding of Japan's combat mentality.

I have studied seven martial arts, some of which were so brutal I could not make the connections myself of what move to do next. But I understand now why it is necessary to know such tactics. In a violent confrontation, there is no time to think. One must act quickly and waste as little time and energy as possible when incapacitating their attacker (all honorable martial arts practice and preach never throwing the first strike, so if there is violence, it does not begin with us, it ends with us). The Chinese word "Wushu" actually translates to "the art of stopping a fight."

It was Japan that attacked America in WWII, absolutely unprovoked. The atom bomb was used for two reasons: first, to show Nazi Germany that we beat them to the development of it so that they would be far more likely to surrender, and second, so that Japan would surrender. We warned them in advance and they did nothing. They didn't surrender after the first one was dropped, remember that. We weren't out to rule over their country, we just wanted them to leave us alone and all other methods failed. Also remember the Samurai mentality of Japanese warriors. Like Islam's suicide bombers, they would crash their planes into American warships and other targets.

By a martial artist's standpoint, the Japanese delivered the first blow, and America the final blow.

I am by no means suggesting that the detonation of the atom bomb was not a horribly tragic event, but given the circumstances at the time, it was necessary.


As for other atrocities committed in America that can be found elsewhere, go visit South America and Mexico, China, Japan, Russia, just about any nation on the African continent, and Australia. Oh, let's not forget North Korea, where they FORCE Christianity on their citizens, and Iran, which will not allow women U.S. citizens to leave without their husband's permission, if the husband is an Iranian citizen (there was a movie made about this, called "Not without my daughter," and I'm sure you can find it, or parts of it, on Youtube somewhere, if you care to watch).

When it comes to the truth, there are only two things to observe, my friend: Cause and effect. I should state here that it is folly for ANY human being to even begin to say that they understand God. You don't understand God and neither do I, so why should we allow another human being to tell us about God? Just because it's in a book that someone claims to be holy doesn't make it true. I challenge you with one final question: Where is the historical evidence that Muhammed ever moved a mountain? (you may not use your book as a source unless it provides viable dates and references).

I am capable of both detecting and using subtle (spiritual) energies. Within one year, I doubled my salary, acquired a brand-new gas-efficient car, and found the best deal on an apartment in my area. And I am not of Islam. So if Allah hates me so much, he's doing a tinkle-poor job of stopping me from living a good life.

I still maintain that organized religion is a control mechanism used by the elite to manipulate the masses. Its purpose is to simply make sure that the common people of the world never unite. If Islam maintains its attitude toward infidels, then organized religion will have done what it was invented to do.

First of all, what I mean by secularism is a seperation of religion from state.  Religion encompasses every aspect of life: to God belongs everything in the heavens in the earth, not just churches, cynagogues or masjids. the seperation of religion from law, from  society, from state, is an insult to God's Sovereignty.

We dont have these sort of misunderstanding about America. I personally had a public american education my whole life and understand the system and the ideas behind it. Whether you avoid the question or not, the reality is America is about the rule of the people. The rule of God is not a valid consideration in the system's view.


The reality of such a system, is that it is enslaved to men's whims and desires. It doesnt matter if this is a matter of "majority", or "minority", it is still a criminal system.

Regarding your statement about freedom, the difference is, that in Islam we are going from obeying one that is imperfect(man) to the One that is perfect. And if you didnt pay attention to what I wrote earlier, we dont force people to believe.

you said:

By Islam's definition of freedom, you are anarchists. You claim that you do not believe in being ruled by any man, which is the very definition of anarchy. You claim to be ruled by a higher being that nobody has ever seen, one that has never actually been proven to exist. That is not even inside the definition of theocracy. I could claim to be ruled by a higher being too, but who would believe me? I don't have a holy book like the Muslims.

It's not anarachy because we believe in a Law that is to be followed. The Law that is to be followed however, is not man-made law, but the Law that God legislates and lays down. This(Law) is manifested in the Qur'an and what has been related through the lips of His Messenger, Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him).  The rulers and people entrusted with authority are entrusted to implement God's Law.

First of all, genital mutilation is a cultural practice, not an Islamic practice. No woman do I know of, outside of Africa, has ever had to fear genital mutilation succeeding conversion to Islam. It's just an absolutely ridiculous misconception, and incorrect bias.

Secondly, women are treated as equals in Islam. Men and women are treated in Islam according to the specific natures. The Qur'an says, "and the male is not like the female." As much as you want to treat people the "same", the reality is, men and women are not the same: biologically, emotionally or spiritually. They have their unique needs and rights. Indeed, Islam has always honoured women, to the extent that an entire chapter in the Qur'an is named "Women", due to it's main subject being women's rights and treatment.

Your tone and words used shows that you know very little about Islam, and that your mind is full of nonsense thoughts regarding it. It almost feels degrading to myself to even respond to your nonsense, but I will try to bear with it for now.

Women arent converting because they are threatened. I have known women myself who have converted,a nd love Islam because of the way it honours women, and because of its spiritual fulfillment. But you probably wont believe me; that would  be your loss though.

regarding sun tzus art of war, i have read it.

My friend is Japanese and he is a direct descendant of Samurai. I showed him what you wrote in the next paragraph. He said that first of all no White European or Westerner can understand the Japanese Spirit. Secondly, Wushu in Chinese or Bujutsu in Japanese simply means martial-arts. It doesn't mean "art of stopping a fight."

The fact that you are trying to justify the atomic bombs over heroshima and nagasaki shows how much of imbisal you are.

Firstly, Japan did not attack America unprovoked.  This is a flat-out falsehood. This almost as ridiculosu that the 9/11 attacks were unprovoked. Only one who didnt know the political situation and what the united states was doing would say such a thing.

The united states halted all of Japan's monetary assets and froze their oil supply before Pearl Harbor.. Any country with self-respect wouldnt take such actions lying down.

Secondly, Japan did surrender to the U.S. The United States, however, wanted unconditional surrender.


Thirdly, what fault is the Japanese children? Killing women and children to force a government to surrender is worse than any terrorism that Bin Laden has been involved in.

It wasnt a necesity. With that logic, It was just as much a necesity for the Nazis to round up jews and let them die in concentration camps, as they saw the Jews as enemies and waging a covert war against them. Or how about 9/11? Al-Qaida argues that 9/11 was a necesity, because of America's sanctions on iraq tha tkilled half a million children.

I know I dont understand God. Islam is about recognizing that one doesnt understand God. He is not like anything, He has no co-equal and is uncomparable to anything. However, we know that we must submit ourselves to Him and follow what He reveals. 

About your "challenge", i know my Book is authentic and I would never agree to not using my Book as evidences, because the Qur'an is the ultimate evidence, the ultimate authority. For you to disrespect my Book like that shows that you are both ignorant, ungrateful, and an imbissal.

I am capable of both detecting and using subtle (spiritual) energies. Within one year, I doubled my salary, acquired a brand-new gas-efficient car, and found the best deal on an apartment in my area. And I am not of Islam. So if Allah hates me so much, he's doing a tinkle-poor job of stopping me from living a good life.

One narration of the Prophet Muhammad (may the peace and blessings of God be upon him) should be sufficient for your statement:

"Had this world been worth the weight of the wing of  a mosquito, Allah would not give the kaafir(disbeliever)a sip of water."

this world in respect to the Hereafter is like a drop in respect to the oceans.

Enjoy your good things in this life, for eternal Hellfire awaits those who disbelieve.


As for your next statement, my response is: bahaism is an organized religion,but its precepts revolve around the unity of mankind and making no distinction between people.

[abu-usaama]

You see Osama this is where you and I differ. You say you live by a book of rules that you follow, and that following these rules makes God like you better than me.Yet you are a hypocrite who claims one thing and does another.

Let me teach you a few things. First of all, Sarcasm is forbidden in Islam, did you know that.

15) It is of the adab of the high path of Islam to completely abandon and shun guile, deceit, scornfulness, or sarcasm because these are unlawful. Allah Most High says, "O you who believe, let no men scorn other men, for they might well be better than they are. And let no women scorn other women, for they might well be better than they. And do not find fault with one another, or give each other insulting nicknames" (Qur'an 49:11).

Do you not find it odd that I a infidel, am the one to steer you on to the proper path. Mind your words my little friend, for in words, you show what you really are.

This is what I have against you who follow Islam and call yourselves Moslem. You are hypocrites and you are liers. Its that simple. How can you build a good society with and among people who are liers and hypocrites. You cannot, it has never been done and it will never happen. No government can ever exist in peace and no great civilization can ever be built on a lie. It is simply not possible. It defies common sense. It would mean that you would never know where you had people, it would and does create injustice and confusion on a massive scale. This is the very reason the Califate will never be a reality, and this is the reason the Muslim world ceased to exist as a power to be counted on.

Let me explain so you understand it better and think about the implications in a modern world. According to the Koran it is ok to tell lies it is in some cases even commanded. Here are some text on the Hadith

(16) It is of the adab of the high path of Islam to abandon lying, for it is unlawful. Allah Most High curses liars by saying, "May liars be slain" (Qur'an 51:10), in which slain means "cursed" according to the Arabic idiom likening the accursed, who loses every good and happiness, to the slain, who loses life and every blessing. The Qur'anic exegete al-Khazin notes that "May liars be cursed" originally referred to those who sat on the various roads outside Mecca warning people against the words of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) to keep them from becoming Muslim. The verse, however, like other Qur'anic verses, is not limited to the original circumstances in which it was revealed, but applies universally, to the end of time. Those who lie, except in circumstances in which Sacred Law permits it, are cursed by Allah.

(SO FAR SO GOOD OSAMA< HOWEVER>>>>)

(17) It is unlawful to lie, except when making up between two people, or lying to an enemy in war, or to one's wife. It is also unlawful to praise or blame another with an untruth. The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "Lying is wrong, except in three things: the lie of a man to his wife to make her content with him; a lie in war, for war is deception; or a lie to settle trouble between people" (Ahmad, 6.459. H). Ibn Jawzi has said, "The criterion for it is that every praiseworthy objective in Sacred Law that cannot be brought about without lying is permissible to lie for if the objective is permissible, and obligatory to lie for if the objective is obligatory." When lying is the only way to attain one's right, one may lie about oneself or another, provided it does not harm the other. And it is obligatory to lie to if necessary to protect a Muslim from being murdered. But whenever one can accomplish the objective by words that merely give a misleading impression with actually being false, it is unlawful to tell an outright lie, because it is unnecessary.

I believe that this mixture of lies and truth is why Islam came to an end centuries ago, and why it is never to rise again. You are untrustworthy. WE the people of other countries unfettered by your book now knows that to us you are liers, you are sanctioned by your prophet to deceive us and do so all the time. NOTE the word OBLIGATORY.

I suspect that you are not aware of these things. How would you like to be the wife of a husband who has been given the privilege to lie to you with Gods book in his hand, about money matters infidelity etc etc. How do you think you could EVER live in a world with people that you are allowed to decieve. This is what your religios leaders in your sacred ISALAM does all the time. This why a discussion with Moslems, be it on the net or youtube or in person ALWAYS ends up in  confusion. You do not have to follow the same rules as we do, you can lie and decieve in your arguments, and do so all the time.

The fact is that most of the millions of Muslims in the world want to be respected as truthful people, while they follow a book that teaches that it is ok to lie......to us. You see the problem. It is huge. Then when they are faced with this fact they turn to sarcasm and name calling, something they are strictly forbidden..............go figure.

Civilized.................I think not

Think about it, now that is what I call a pathetic religion

pa·thet·ic   –adjective
1. causing or evoking pity, sympathetic sadness, sorrow, etc.; pitiful; pitiable: a pathetic letter; a pathetic sight. 
2. affecting or moving the feelings. 
3. pertaining to or caused by the feelings. 
4. miserably or contemptibly inadequate

First of all, Mustard, the prohibition of sarchasm is towards fellow believers. I am permitted to insult and degrade individuals like yourself, who's disbelief is clear, and opposition to Islam is apparent.

As for your dumb idea of bringing up the topic of lies, the permitted lies are the lies to one's wife (which would be a white lie to one's wife in english cultural terms), a lie for rectification between people, and a lie during war. However, during war one can still not break a  treaty, and some forms of lies are still impermissible.

Your pathetic existence abhors me. But I feel bad for you more than I hate you, for, I know you are just paving a path for yourself into Hellfire.

[Mustardseed]

First of all, Mustard, the prohibition of sarchasm is towards fellow believers. I am permitted to insult and degrade individuals like yourself, who's disbelief is clear, and opposition to Islam is apparent.

As for your dumb idea of bringing up the topic of lies, the permitted lies are the lies to one's wife (which would be a white lie to one's wife in english cultural terms), a lie for rectification between people, and a lie during war. However, during war one can still not break a  treaty, and some forms of lies are still impermissible.

Your pathetic existence abhors me. But I feel bad for you more than I hate you, for, I know you are just paving a path for yourself into Hellfire.

Well I guess I will have to take my chances about hell fire. First of all .....as you say, could you please show me a few suras that permit you to insult and degrade individuals like me. I would be interested in heading these parts.

As far as my dumb idea of Islam permitting Lies toward unbelievers, it is obvious that all Muslims are at war with the Kaffir, so it is permitted to lie to officials, police, bosses, and other infidels if you live in a country that is not ruled by Sharia.

You may also lie to your wife at will if it to make sure she is not hurt, as in covering up affairs etc. In actuality Muslims in the west have another principle that they use namely that of "Taqiyya"......

.............which literally means: "Concealing, precaution, guarding." It is employed in disguising one's beliefs, intentions, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions or strategies. In practical terms it is manifested as dissimulation, lying, deceiving, vexing and confounding with the intention of deflecting attention, foiling or pre-emptive blocking. It is currently employed in fending off and neutralising any criticism of Islam or Muslims.

Falsehoods told to prevent the denigration of Islam, to protect oneself, or to promote the cause of Islam are sanctioned in the Qur'an and Sunna, including lying under oath in testimony before a court, deceiving by making distorted statements to the media such as the claim that Islam is a "religion of peace". A Muslim is even permitted to deny or denounce his faith if, in so doing, he protects or furthers the interests of Islam, so long as he remains faithful to Islam in his hear

I have cut and pasted the above explanation and translation from a site on the net.

This is why I call you liars, and I call Islam a religion that sanctions and commands lying.

I do find it amusing that when you can no longer support your own claims, and are exposed for being a uncivilized liar, you start threatening with hell fire. So sad, and so ignorant and infantile.
Very typical of many yet not all Muslims.

This issue above is unknown to many westerners and they still cling to the belief that Muslims are good lawabiding people, because they claim to be. This is why they get so surprised when young western Muslims "suddenly" turn radical. They are not aware that they have been deceived on an ongoing basis.
If what is happening in this discussion had been happening face to face, you would most likely resorted to violence or aggression , like most Muslims do.

All that points to a lack of civility.

[abu-usaama]

Well I guess I will have to take my chances about hell fire. First of all .....as you say, could you please show me a few suras that permit you to insult and degrade individuals like me. I would be interested in heading these parts.

As far as my dumb idea of Islam permitting Lies toward unbelievers, it is obvious that all Muslims are at war with the Kaffir, so it is permitted to lie to officials, police, bosses, and other infidels if you live in a country that is not ruled by Sharia.

You may also lie to your wife at will if it to make sure she is not hurt, as in covering up affairs etc. In actuality Muslims in the west have another principle that they use namely that of "Taqiyya"......

.............which literally means: "Concealing, precaution, guarding." It is employed in disguising one's beliefs, intentions, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions or strategies. In practical terms it is manifested as dissimulation, lying, deceiving, vexing and confounding with the intention of deflecting attention, foiling or pre-emptive blocking. It is currently employed in fending off and neutralising any criticism of Islam or Muslims.

Falsehoods told to prevent the denigration of Islam, to protect oneself, or to promote the cause of Islam are sanctioned in the Qur'an and Sunna, including lying under oath in testimony before a court, deceiving by making distorted statements to the media such as the claim that Islam is a "religion of peace". A Muslim is even permitted to deny or denounce his faith if, in so doing, he protects or furthers the interests of Islam, so long as he remains faithful to Islam in his hear

I have cut and pasted the above explanation and translation from a site on the net.

This is why I call you liars, and I call Islam a religion that sanctions and commands lying.

I do find it amusing that when you can no longer support your own claims, and are exposed for being a uncivilized liar, you start threatening with hell fire. So sad, and so ignorant and infantile.
Very typical of many yet not all Muslims.

This issue above is unknown to many westerners and they still cling to the belief that Muslims are good lawabiding people, because they claim to be. This is why they get so surprised when young western Muslims "suddenly" turn radical. They are not aware that they have been deceived on an ongoing basis.
If what is happening in this discussion had been happening face to face, you would most likely resorted to violence or aggression , like most Muslims do.

All that points to a lack of civility.

إِنَّمَا يَفْتَرِي الْكَذِبَ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِآيَاتِ اللّهِ وَأُوْلـئِكَ هُمُ الْكَاذِبُونَ
It is only those who believe not in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, who fabricate falsehood, and it is they who are liars. [16:105]

[CFTraveler]

I've been staying away from this convo primarily because I like to try to understand other religions and don't really enjoy 'other people's religion bashing', but I want to ask a question that struck me here.

Usama, in the past few paragraphs  it seems you are saying that western world, or anyone who is not Muslim are beneath you because we don't necessarily follow the Quran?

I am permitted to insult and degrade individuals like yourself, who's disbelief is clear, and opposition to Islam is apparent.

It is only those who believe not in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, who fabricate falsehood, and it is they who are liars. [16:105]

Sounds like you don't think we deserve respect.  Is this the case?

[Mustardseed]

Yes that is exactly what he believes, though he will probably try to soft soap you, using the doctrine of Taqyiaa which I explained below. It is one of the many reasons it is so hard for the average westerner to see through this veil, this deception. They do not believe that a religion could ever sanction or promote lying. Its just so alien to us.

You and I and the rest of us are according to the Koran, only the Kufr or the kaffir and are in essence no different from a cow or a pig. We are by nature liars, and the Muslims consider themselves to be by nature truthful.

Being truthful or being a liar is not a personal thing in Islam. A Muslim is a truthful man because he confesses that there is only one God and Muhammad is his prophet, a infidel is a liar because he denies this.

The Arabic he wrote translates into:

"but maligned lying (comes from) those who do not believe the revelations of Allah, and those are the liars, (it comes )from Kafr after his faith in God (which he) only hate(s), (the) heart reassuring faith(,) but they (instead) explain disbelief (and will receive) breaststroke (forward, aggressive) anger from God and have a great punishment.

I have put a few words in () to change the actual translation to readable English.

This is why I have asked that we examine the scriptures and what they actually teach rather than the actions of those who claim to follow them, be they Christians Jews or Muslims. This is however a heresy to osama,  who believes Islam and Islamic countries, are far more civilized than the west.

Here is a quote from Osama from below:

First of all, Mustard, the prohibition of sarchasm is towards fellow believers. I am permitted to insult and degrade individuals like yourself, who's disbelief is clear, and opposition to Islam is apparent.

Think about that .........quite thought provoking. If he had been a CHRISTIAN displaying such sentiments he would have been banned from AP a LONG time ago, but it seems that since he is a Muslim and we are all supposed to be so tolerant, he is allowed to spew out such venom and hate propaganda and stand unchallenged. Much like society at large Political correctness is still rearing its ugly head sometime, here and IRL as well.

[abu-usaama]

I've been staying away from this convo primarily because I like to try to understand other religions and don't really enjoy 'other people's religion bashing', but I want to ask a question that struck me here.

Usama, in the past few paragraphs  it seems you are saying that western world, or anyone who is not Muslim are beneath you because we don't necessarily follow the Quran?
Sounds like you don't think we deserve respect.  Is this the case?

respect

noun
1.    (usually preceded by 'in') a detail or point; "it differs in that respect"
2.    the condition of being honored (esteemed or respected or well regarded); "it is held in esteem"; "a man who has earned high regard" [syn: esteem] [ant: disesteem]
3.    an attitude of admiration or esteem; "she lost all respect for him" [ant: disrespect]
4.    a courteous expression (by word or deed) of esteem or regard; "his deference to her wishes was very flattering"; "be sure to give my respects to the dean" [syn: deference]
5.    behavior intended to please your parents; "their children were never very strong on obedience"; "he went to law school out of respect for his father's wishes" [syn: obedience]
6.    a feeling of friendship and esteem; "she mistook his manly regard for love"; "he inspires respect" [syn: regard]
7.    courteous regard for people's feelings; "in deference to your wishes"; "out of respect for his privacy" [syn: deference]


as for honouring you, that is impermissible. all honour belongs to God, His Messenger, and the believers.

im not prohibited from treating you kindly or justly, or being courteous regarding your feelings, but how can i respect your beliefs, that are disrespects to my Lord?

[AmbientSound]

Join the Dark Side...





... and get a free cookie!

[AmbientSound]

Usaama-

You miss the beauty of reality. The world is ALREADY free. It was free before Islam, it is free now, and it shall remain free long after Islam dies away. Your thinking is warped by the distorted lens of Islam. You think that Islam is the only religion that contains wisdom? The only one worth following? Well you are wrong and so is your book.

Experience is the best teacher, and that is the path that I follow.

[Stookie]

but how can i respect your beliefs, that are disrespects to my Lord?

Acceptance and forgiveness?

[CFTraveler]

Abu wrote:
im not prohibited from treating you kindly or justly, or being courteous regarding your feelings, but how can i respect your beliefs, that are disrespects to my Lord?

Thank you.
That is all I need to know.

[Mustardseed]

You may not be prohibited in treating people kindly and justly if they have not yet decided where they stand regarding Islam, but if people have rejected your religion, you are commanded to not only disrespect them but also to attack them, physically if you can, or with words if you cannot get to them, like you do here.

You cannot, nor are you allowed to be kind just and courteous to people who voice opposition to Islam. You said in a post a while ago that you have no problem with executing (by beheading) anyone who commits apostasy, leaves Islam. You and all your brothers who hold the same views, are in my definition teetering on the brink of insanity.

You have stated you believe in Jihad.

and when you say:

im not prohibited from treating you kindly or justly, or being courteous regarding your feelings, but how can i respect your beliefs, that are disrespects to my Lord?

People reply:

Thank you, thats all I need to know.

We are the Kufr Osama!, if I had the same attitude about your religion, that you have about mine, I would be in trouble with the media, and maybe even get a warning from the AP. If I called your Prophet lets say a perverted child abuser, a false prophet and a warmongering terrorist, I would most likely be sternly corrected by my fellow Kuffir brothers and sisters.

Isn't it ironic. I can prove from your own scriptures that all these statements are true, yet in the name of political wishy washy correctness, I am in various forums silenced and condemned, and you are believed and allowed to speak.  Muslims such as yourself support the burning down of embassies, to protest, against being called a violent Religion, (go figure) sympathize openly with your name brother, an insane mass murderer and yet you have, with the help of Taqyiia managed to get sympathy for your cause, using our own beliefs in tolerance, freedom of religion, something you do not even agree with, as your "way in"

I pity you, and I pity the world because it is just the beginning. I am personally against violence, be it from the wacko mass murderer Bush, or the counterpart Osama, but you are not. You believe in the Kalifat, wants to instigate Sharia law, and you will willingly plunge the world into destruction to prove it, all along thinking you do Gods service.

You are so wrong.

[AmbientSound]

That novel Allah's been working on...

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/that-novel-youve-been-working-on/2333499493

[Mustardseed]

OH MY GOODNESS I dont think I have laughed so long and so hard for a long time. Thanks for sharing that It hit right in the center as I have actually been working on a novel for .....you guessed it 3 years. What are the odds. My novel is about my time in Afghanistan, up to the present day, and you are all in it.

[AmbientSound]

Yeah, I got a laugh out of it too, but I feel that I may have went too far with that one, so I apologize to Usaama, even if he would not do the same for me were our places switched.

Usaama should believe whatever he wants to believe, because I believe people in general should, even if I disagree with their beliefs. I do wish he would acknowledge that Christianity's scriptures, which are older than the Quaran, indicate that HE will also be burning in hell for not believing in Jesus. I guess you and I better learn to get along, Usaama. We might be roommates in hell.