FITNA the Movie (Finally people seem to be waking up)

[abu-usaama]

Yeah, I got a laugh out of it too, but I feel that I may have went too far with that one, so I apologize to Usaama, even if he would not do the same for me were our places switched.

Usaama should believe whatever he wants to believe, because I believe people in general should, even if I disagree with their beliefs. I do wish he would acknowledge that Christianity's scriptures, which are older than the Quaran, indicate that HE will also be burning in hell for not believing in Jesus. I guess you and I better learn to get along, Usaama. We might be roommates in hell.

I believe in Jesus.

[AmbientSound]

Do you believe that Jesus is your savior, Usaama?

Below you will find a link that describes the fundamental American philosophies:



http://www.freedom-fight.net/liberty



That is the way it is supposed to be in our country. It is what the Founding Fathers intended. If you still think Western society is uncivilized, consider that the source is not these philosophies, but individuals who are ignorant of them.

There are always examples that you can find about horrible happenings in America. This is due to the fact that given the size of people in the world, and the population of America, which is a very big country, you are always going to have a percentage of people who are deranged or not normal in some way.

Normal people in America (or anywhere else) don't hack their neighbors and families up and eat them. Violence makes a lot of work for everyone and invites anger, hostility, and hatred.

The people who do these terrible things in Western culture are like the people in predominantly Islamic countries and cultures who blow themselves up in the markets and other places, killing indiscriminately, even if the majority of their victims end up being fellow Muslims.

[AmbientSound]

One thing I would like to point out is that we elect people in America to REPRESENT us, not RULE OVER us (I think the link I posted already mentions that). Essentially, we are hiring them to perform the service of carrying out the wishes of the majority. They get paid by our tax dollars.

Unfortunately, the system has become very complex and things have gone awry (more specifically corporate America's greed). This does not represent all of America, but a powerful few who have found a way to take advantage of our system. They deserve life sentences in jail for what they are doing. They know full well what the consequences will be for everyone else. They just don't care.

[AmbientSound]

Whether it's yours, mine, or someone else's religion, I think this one makes valid points.

http://www.venganza.org/

Can't we all just get along?

[Mustardseed]

You believe that he was a prophet, nothing else. You do not believe he was the son of God as Christians do

[AmbientSound]

I think these misunderstandings need to be cleared up. I'm tired of being told that hellfire awaits me in the next life, and I'm sure that Usaama is tired of being told how obsolete his religion is.

I want balance and peace for all of us. How can that be achieved?

[Mustardseed]

If you notice, Osama is the one who claims to know that you and all infidels are going to hell, while he and the rest of his Muslim brothers are going to heaven. In Islam the absolutely surest way to get to heaven is to die as a martyr, so all the Palestinian suicide bombers who blow themselves up and kill innocent children and adults are the first to get in.

I think that many people especially here on the AP and in the community in general, wants so bad to find common ground with Islam, but the problem is that Islam wants no part in that. Islam as a religion and a political system will not be satisfied till all of the world belongs to Dar al Islam the house of Islam. (peace) and since we all know that civilized countries will NEVER allow sharia law to rule, all that is left is war. The frustrated attempts to dominate, by a religion, and followers of a justice system, that is some 400 years too late. The world has moved on while Islam still lives in the 1600s, a barbaric time, that fits a barbaric religion and system.

This war, Jihad is waged physically and spiritually. This series of posts is Osamas personal Jihad, his struggle. It is his attempt as a teenager to spread Islam, and there will be no compromise. 

Sometimes you have to accept that you cannot have peace even though you want it. How can you make peace with those who wants no peace.

[CFTraveler]

And now, to change the subject:

My novel is ... and you are all in it.

I better be hot  in it, that's all I'm going to say.   

[Mustardseed]

And now, to change the subject:  I better be hot  in it, that's all I'm going to say.   

well that depends on, actually well uhhhhh....its like.....,you see oh forget it...................Ill make you hot

[AmbientSound]

This war, Jihad is waged physically and spiritually. This series of posts is Osamas personal Jihad, his struggle. It is his attempt as a teenager to spread Islam, and there will be no compromise. 

Sometimes you have to accept that you cannot have peace even though you want it. How can you make peace with those who wants no peace.

What do you say, Usaama? This viewpoint indicates that you are blind and think you can achieve peace through war. This is, as you may know, George W. Bush's philosophy, an idiot of the twenty-first Century.

Nobody wins a war. It's a lose-lose situation.

And if the Mayan calendar prophecy is correct, Usaama, you and your Muslim cronies have only four years to take over the world, and counting... Tick... tick... tick... *insert super-villain laughter here*

When Allah gives you hellfire... roast marshmallows and make smores.

[Mustardseed]

I think Osama has decided that he will ignore us. This is often the way Muslims engage in a debate. At first they are all over you with religious dogma, making various lofty claims about being more civilized and educated. Then after they have been forced to look at the facts, they resort to abusive language, and then lastly they threaten hellfire. They are simply not able to document their cause, nor are they able to actually debate an issue. This is not taught in Islam, in Islam only religious rhetoric, and flowery allegories and language is needed to convince people, this is due to the heavy indoctrination of Muslims by various Imams and Mullahs. All their answers are basically copied and pasted from various help sites run by their Imams......if they say this you say this etc. Its pretty funny really, as they often "forget" to list their source, and want to be seen as "wise" and educated. Religious hypocrisy.  Lastly after they have realised they have neither the intellect or skill, much less facts to prove their grand claims, they ignore you and go somewhere shouting Allah is great,  from some other soap box.

Osama is waiting for the Mahdi, the last prophet that shall make all the world Muslim....and set up the Kalifat.......arn't you Osama. I know you are reading this my little friend, but you are probably not is interested in discussing with a Kufr, who is going to answer you back, no one to convert.

[abu-usaama]

I think Osama has decided that he will ignore us. This is often the way Muslims engage in a debate. At first they are all over you with religious dogma, making various lofty claims about being more civilized and educated. Then after they have been forced to look at the facts, they resort to abusive language, and then lastly they threaten hellfire. They are simply not able to document their cause, nor are they able to actually debate an issue. This is not taught in Islam, in Islam only religious rhetoric, and flowery allegories and language is needed to convince people, this is due to the heavy indoctrination of Muslims by various Imams and Mullahs. All their answers are basically copied and pasted from various help sites run by their Imams......if they say this you say this etc. Its pretty funny really, as they often "forget" to list their source, and want to be seen as "wise" and educated. Religious hypocrisy.  Lastly after they have realised they have neither the intellect or skill, much less facts to prove their grand claims, they ignore you and go somewhere shouting Allah is great,  from some other soap box.

Osama is waiting for the Mahdi, the last prophet that shall make all the world Muslim....and set up the Kalifat.......arn't you Osama. I know you are reading this my little friend, but you are probably not is interested in discussing with a Kufr, who is going to answer you back, no one to convert.

Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him) was the last prophet, not the Mahdi.

[abu-usaama]

oh yeah, and if you want to debate me , im not afraid to debate. however, i dont respond to people who talk like fools.

abu-usaama@hotmail.com

[AmbientSound]

I have returned to a place of peace, balance, and harmony from this argument, because ultimately it means nothing to me. It is my inalienable right to believe whatever I want, and I regularly exercise that right. If Usaama and all of Islam believes that hellfire awaits me, then that is for him and them to believe, though I do not share in that belief. Obviously we are two very different individuals following two very different philosophies, seemingly.



My opinion:

Mature individuals solve their conflicts together while sharing something with each other, like a beer, or if they don't drink alcohol, usually it is something like tea or coffee.

It is not what is said, it is how the individuals conduct themselves and show each other respect while exchanging their viewpoints. That speaks volumes more than the facts. Can any of us really claim to truly know something?


Usaama, under what conditions/circumstances would the above be possible between Muslims and non-Muslims?



  1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal. 2And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3And if I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing. 4Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil; 6rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth; 7beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; 10but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things. 12For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known. 13But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

Source: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/bible/asv.iCor.13.html

[Mustardseed]

Dear AS
I understand how you feel, a unpleasant discussion such as this can be taxing, however.........sometimes it is necessary. Not in order to win an argument, thats irrelevant, but in order to shine light on a subject. There are many people who read these posts and if Osama is left unchallenged his point of view will slowly become mainstream. This is how propaganda works. Tell a lie often enough and someday it will be believed.

The fact is that Islam is a barbaric social system based on a pseudo religion, hailing principles and laws dating back to the first century. It is religious fascism it its finest form pure and undiluted. It mandates death by beheading to those who leave its ranks, suppresses women in the most horrid ways, and calls for Jihad to usher its priesthood into leadership of the world, making all the world Muslim. This in not my free fantasy but has been confirmed even by Osama who believes in these principles.

It is true that it would be easier to just retreat into our own lives and realities, but if we do we leave the "battlefield" to him and his cronies.

I saw a National Geographic program last night. It was a look at how Islam was winning the information war it was very thought provoking.

Here is a quote from a blogger on this subject. He is called SchrinkWrapped:

One lamentable problem thus far in the Global War on Terror, or the war on Islamofascism, or the war on expansionary Islam, is that the West has not yet found a vocabulary to describe our enemies. In point of fact, our enemies have done a much better job of hijacking our language and using it for its own purposes than we have in being clear about who we are fighting and what we are fighting for. Until we can agree on who the enemy is, we will have trouble waging a successful information war. Our enemies have an interest in making this a war between the decadent Western infidels and the Muslim world, the Umma. Unless we desire the worst case scenarios to come to fruition, our interest should be in splitting the most violent, those most willing to use force against us, from the great mass of non-violently antipathetic and neutral, Muslims.

I will leave you with this famous quote from Martin Niemuller, the German pastor who outspokenly opposed the Nazis and suffered in concentration camps. In a 1959 seminary address in Atlanta, Ga., Niemuller said,

"First they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Communists, and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak out for me."

Regards Mustardseed

PS as far as a peaceful respectful discussion, I am very much for that, however you will find that our little friend is not. It is simply not an option. In his opinion there can be no serious discussion, no respect, no love and most certain no friendship or tolerance, not unless you convert to Islam that is. Is that an option........? I think.........NOT

PPS
Your remarks are becoming faint Osama. Instead of actually taking part in this exchange and prove to me, and whoever reads this, that the average Muslims are more civilized than the average westerner, which was your grand unsupported claim, you have resorted to calling me stupid..........how original. Then you further state that the Mahdi is not a prophet, something peripheral, well thank you, I stand corrected. He is supposed to be a direct descendant of your prophet Muhammad, and everyone is waiting for him. The last Immam. Instead why don't you confirm or deny that you are waiting for this mythological figure, to lead you all into world dominance. You are waiting for him ..........right, that was my point. Personally I am not convinced but maybe you can explain. The world is listening !!!!!!

[AmbientSound]

It is rather obvious that Usaama has lost the argument, based on how he inserts peoples' entire replies as a quote in his replies and then writes one sentence that is pertinent to one small piece of their post, and it STILL doesn't answer the question.

It is also obvious that he is providing his email because he feels he cannot win this argument here (and he is right). He wants to argue with people one at a time, so that nobody sees anyone else's posts and they have less to think about and ponder, less intellectual stimulus, less ability to grow and evolve and compare their knowledge to that of others.

I wonder if he will even address my previous question- can Muslims and non-Muslims coexist peacefully, and can they discuss the issues at hand with each other respectfully?

Whether he does or not, it will certainly reveal something about his intentions.

[Mustardseed]

I could not agree more. It is actually very interesting to note that the way Muslims argue "religion" is so different from the way agnostics, Christians or atheists etc do the same thing. It stems from the fact that most Muslims do not study their Koran, much less the Hadith as do others. It is too complex, and they have been told that it cannot be understood without reading it in Arabic, or knowing the Hadith as the back of your hand. There is no tradition in Islam for an individual to study these books, as we know "study", instead they are read as poetry..

Most, if not all, instead use various help sites, set up by Imams and Mullahs etc, to answer issues that come up, rather than search themselves. Basically they don't know their own scriptures, and when confronted with THEIR OWN BELIEFS they quickly resort to abuse or religious rhetoric, rather than fact. I have yet to find a Muslim who knew his own doctrines, better than I do.

This is very much like the Catholic church before the reformation. This is how the church of its day kept a thumb on its members, and it resulted in various atrocities, committed in the name of God, perpetrated by people who thought they were doing God a favor.  After the first Bible was translated by Luther all that changed.

If western Muslims, living in the Umma would only bother to read their own book, they would see that it is indeed very violent and barbaric, they would then have to choose between following its doctrines, or rejecting it and choosing democracy with all its faults and weak points. This would however be a big and very traumatic social faux pas, because there is only one kind of person a fundamentalist Muslim hates MORE than the Kaffir (infidel) and that is a apostate, one who has left Islam. There is death penalty for apostasy in several countries, and in the west there is "social death penalty". You become an outcast. 

I believe that there are thousands of Muslims in the west who are going along just for these social reasons, and would much rather live in a western world with its basic law and order, rather than in a Sharia state. You seldom hear anything from them.

Besides that, Osama is just a young boy, obviously attracted to the strong image and attitude of superiority, so readily portrayed by the Imams. Religious fervor has always given rise to youngsters, who take things to the extremes. He will grow and hopefully learn, that much of the information he is being given, in nothing more than fiction, urban legends and lies, dooms day conspiracies invented to control the masses.

During the Cartoon crisis, a team of Danish and Mideastern Imams, living in Denmark, traveled to the Mideast, bringing with them cartoons showing Muhammad having sex with a pig. This was a fabrication. They spread rumors that the Danish government had laws encouraging Danes to marry animals cows and pigs etc etc. These lies were spread throughout the Mideast through the Internet, and various Arabic tv channels, and was the fuel that set all the Muslims off on their rampage.This has later been admitted, but by the time it finally came out, the damage was done. These stories take a life of their own and Muslims are naturally more apt to believe a fellow Muslim and certainly an Immam, rather than a Kaffir.

Regards Mustardseed   

[Mustardseed]

Funny isn't it that when a Muslim realities that he most likely cannot convert a person, he just goes away. No need to argue doctrine, no need to explain no need for sugarcoating the message. He just goes on to whatever he considers a better promising victim. The aim is not to defend the faith, but only to win and deceive potential converts. 

[AmbientSound]

Yes, I think Usaama's lack of presence is a very accurate indicator of his intentions. He didn't answer at least half the questions I asked him. He's not playing by the rules- not even his own.

[highdenham]

Get over it dude. Muslims have always been peaceful. Rash and floundery statements of a couple doesnt change the fact that:

1)Muslims have always been more tolerant, and more civilized, in warfare and elsewhere, than christians.

You have to do some serious reading, my friend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam

[Mustardseed]

You have to do some serious reading, my friend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam

Yes you are right he should, but this is the very problem with Osama and his friends,  they will NOT read something written about Islam, unless it has been written by a Muslim. They simply dismiss it. It is part of their culture to mistrust any information that does not come from their Immam or whoever they consider authorities. They have a well developed persecution complex and believe in all sort of far fetched conspiracy theories. This is also why they are so easy to lead astray. I know that there are well educated Muslims, BUT as a rule, and most certainly in Islamic countries, Muslims are uneducated, simple and ......as a result rather uncivilized. This was the discussion and seeing Osama has left the  building he confirms it.

[highdenham]

Yes you are right he should, but this is the very problem with Osama and his friends,  they will NOT read something written about Islam, unless it has been written by a Muslim. They simply dismiss it. It is part of their culture to mistrust any information that does not come from their Immam or whoever they consider authorities. They have a well developed persecution complex and believe in all sort of far fetched conspiracy theories. This is also why they are so easy to lead astray. I know that there are well educated Muslims, BUT as a rule, and most certainly in Islamic countries, Muslims are uneducated, simple and ......as a result rather uncivilized. This was the discussion and seeing Osama has left the  building he confirms it.

Quite.

[AmbientSound]

FINAL SCORE:




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