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Author Topic: Sexuality vs Spirituality  (Read 13902 times)
runlola
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« on: June 06, 2004, 20:35:37 »

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« Last Edit: November 27, 2006, 07:28:14 by Runlola » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2004, 02:31:20 »

Lighthouse,
your questions:
 
quote:
1. Does anyone understand well enough the difference (if any) between being celibate and Chaste?


I never thought of the two being different. It seems that one could see chaste as a discriminating attitude.This being whether the person is sexually active or not. Celibate is the choice of no sexual activity whether it's first choice or not.
Asexual is a good word for both. This is a term I always described for myself. Asexuality has been present in various phases in my life, not necessarily a permanent state. I had a relationship end because I entered this phase. My love and friend did not understand. He took it personally. He ran off and replaced me in no time flat. I was okay with that. I learned what he was made of. To each his/her own. He went on to a fairly good relationship, although one I wouldn't have wanted. This relationship eventually ended for him. I still have mine going after all this time (me and God). Although a good man, he had to have some kind of assurance in the form of a continuous sexual relationship.
 
quote:
2. What are your views on Spirituality and Sexuality? Is there a conflict between the 2 and if so why?


 There may be a conflict between the two. But I believe it to be misunderstanding spirituality, more than sexual activity getting in the way. It seems that Scott Peck depicts it well.Imo, if sexuality is in the way of a relationship, it probably is. This is a good time to do something about it. In my case of the relationship I mentioned, althought thought by the other party as manipulatory, it was not. I did get a clean house out of the deal, spiritually speaking [Smiley]. This is more valuble than the physical relationship lost. I didn't expect my physical relationship to end as it did.
Having learned some things along the way. I think spiritual energy is not the same has physical sex.The two are easily confused with each other. I don't think the physical man can do anything in the spiritual sense unless he has an outer influence working within him. I would go as far to say, a possession must take place.
 
quote:
3. Why is it that most Holy Men and Women choose to be celibate?

I think celibacy finds the Holy one. If one has to seek it, that's another path, though just as good.

I have a funny joke in my files somewhere on this. I hope I can find it.
 
quote:
Does it enhance their passion for the Divine by harnessing that passion instead of being distracted by the longings (and idolotry) of the object of their physical adoration?


I can't speak for those tempted by these things. Fortunately, I've never been attracted to physical things of this nature.

I like the three things runola has mentioned. These things are most likely true imo too.A male's experience probably varies from a female's.
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« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2004, 02:31:20 »

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« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2004, 07:06:28 »

quote:
1. Does anyone understand well enough the difference (if any) between being celibate and Chaste?


Being chaste would be being mindful of the reasons, motives and the intent of one's sexuality. Being celibate is to deny one's sexuality.

quote:
2. What are your views on Spirituality and Sexuality? Is there a conflict between the 2 and if so why?


No conflict. Spirituality is expresing your part of the divine whole. If you feel being sexual is who you are then denying that would go against your Self and that in turn would fly right in the face of the divine.
There is a reason why there are men and women and why they are atracted to each pother in various combinations.
If on theother hand you feel and expressing sexuality is not expressing your Self then by all means abstainand be celibate.

But to claim than either choice is the one and only way seems arrogant in the extreme to me.

quote:
3. Why is it that most Holy Men and Women choose to be celibate? Does it enhance their passion for the Divine by harnessing that passion instead of being distracted by the longings (and idolotry) of the object of their physical adoration?


One part in some cases may be tradition, especially among the christians. But I'd describe their choice as being akin to choosing between a sailboat and a speedboat. They have chosen to prefer one over the other (abstaining vs. sexuality) but that doesn't mean it's anything their than ther choice and an expression of their Self.

Another way to view the issue is to understand that they have shed the craving of sexuality and aren't bothered by it or the lack thereof and have chosen the simpler lifestyle (for them).

2cents & L&L
Jouni
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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2004, 11:29:17 »

I myself feel much confusion over sexuality. Not in the sense that i don't know what i prefer, i do, but the over PURPOSE in the grand scheme of things. Sex is such a powerful powerful energetic force that it must serve multiple purposes, certainly above and beyond procreation. And because God created sex and gave it to us to enjoy, i do think he's okay with it. As far as abuse of sex and the problems it causes, overindulgence could be to blame. Overindulging in anything is a form of addiction and negs are attracted/the cause.

I've been reading a lot about Sex Magic, not to practice it but to understand it's use through the centuries. Well, i don't understand, it just generates more questions i don't have good answers to.
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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2004, 11:34:04 »

Jouni,

I can always count on you to bring me back to my true nature [Cheesy].  I just finished the Razors Edge this past week and in it, the main character (It is based on a true story of a man) chose not to engage in sexual activity because he felt it would further his understanding of his God nature.

I think I have grown a lot over the past couple of years with regards to my own sexuality... sort of an awakening.  I used to see sex as something people did... didn't really understand the big deal of it all.  I gained temporary pleasure, but nothing sustaining.  I have recently, however, yearned for something more in my relationships and in this, I have a deeper understanding of my own sexual nature.  I would now classify myself as a sexual dynamo of sorts,(not promiscuous, more of a yearning to experience the true power that can be found within the sexual experience with one who is truly beloved to me) however, I am also deeply spiritual so this is the motive behind my posing the question.  

(AAAh this is so therapudic for me)

I now see my sexuality as part of my spirituality and crave something more. I yearn for a deep feeling of satisfaction in both the sexual aspects of my relationships and the spiritual aspects, a connection that can nurture both sides of my nature.  

Hence, I posed the questions... to be chaste then, I suppose it would be as Jouni stated, "to be mindful of ones motives."  This is why Peck states that many marital sexual encounters are not chaste and indeed why some extra-marital and pre-marital encounters could fit that criteria.

Kerri
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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2004, 11:34:04 »



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narfellus
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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2004, 11:40:08 »

There is an intimate connection between sexuality and spirituality that i haven't figured out yet. But someone can be a porn star their whole life and never come close to figuring it out, so it is not just the act but the understanding behind the act. I read that some older theories portrayed angels as very sexual, mating with each other and humans. I'm pretty much at the point where i believe if the human mind can imagine it, it can happen.
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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2004, 13:06:07 »

Narfellus:  I think sex is what you make it mean.  It can be about love, the simple need for physical attention, satisfaction of a particular desire, income, etc. etc. etc. Smiley  I think we label what sex is and what sex isn't by our beliefs and prior experiences.
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« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2004, 10:18:26 »

For me sexuality is still a mystery. I am in a relationship and have an active sexuallife. For me though, sex seems to be more of an animal instinct then anything else. I just think about walking in town on a summers day (like today) and seeing al the beautifull girls everywhere.. I have to confess that I do feel a storng sexual desire when I see them. This might sound shallow, but I think that this actually is the normal reaction for many men. Sex in a relationship can be differnt sometimes, sometimes it can be the ultimate union with the person one loves, and othertimes it can be just sex...
And after al, the sexdrive is the reason that the race survives, so it is neither starnge nor bad. But sex can probably be used as a spiritual tool, if it used in the right way. It can be an extention of love, and thet should be considered as a spiritual thing I guess.
yoga means union. Yoga can be experienced with al things though..
You can feel a union with nature, with al living..

Personally I can have a strong craving for sex sometimes, and after having pleased the craving I can feel a bit empty.. afterwards I never understand how it could seem so important.. Perhaps those times it has been pure repitle-brain instinct.
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« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2004, 15:01:24 »

My own sex life has not been the greatest, but i feel that has been so Higher Powers could focus my attention elsewhere. Now, i wouldn't have done it that way were it my conscious choice, but my higher self knows what's better for me so i try not to argue. Consequently, i've been given some insights into sexuality while going through long celibate stretches. I'm actually an extremely sensual and sexual person, and the union of man and woman and the exchange of energy is powerful. But...i still have questions. Procreasion is NOT the only reason for sex. Fear and control is not the use of sex. Our society is so so so wrong about its portrayal of sex that children are confused from day one, and that leads to confused adults.

The good news is that i've read the best sex guides on earth (Guide to Gettin is On; sounds dumb, but check it out, great book) and seen my share of the human body, so i've learned the detailed ins and outs of female and male anatomy, response and titilation in just about every single format imaginable, even old druidic sex magic. Now THAT is interesting stuff, channeling the power of procreation into spells. It's like playing a piano left and right handed; you have to learn to seperate the orgasm from the spell and send them off at the same time. Difficult but possible.

Ultimately i'm glad to have had these chances to learn, but i need more practice...[}:)]
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« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2004, 17:06:46 »

This is my idea of the perfect sexual experience:  Taken from www.tantra.com.  I just wish my partner and I were of the same spiritual mindset because this is something I really want to explore.  [Cheesy]

The Art of Tantric Sex

TANTRIC SEX is meditative, spontaneous and intimate lovemaking Through it you learn to prolong the act of making love and to channel, rather than dissipate. potent orgasmic energies moving through you, thereby raising the level of your consciousness. Tantra transports your sexuality from the plane of doing to the place of being. There is no goal in Tantric sex, only the present moment of perfect and harmonious union. Tantra teaches you to revere your sexual partner and to transform the act of sex into a sacrament of love.

Tantra teaches that lovemaking between a man and woman, when entered into with awareness, is a gateway to both sexual and spiritual ecstasy. In India, traditional Tantrikas spent many years under the guidance of a spiritual teacher and engaged in elaborate yogic rituals to purify and master the body and mind. These practices were intended to awaken the powerful psychic energies through which the adept could enter into higher states of consciousness When a disciple was deemed ready he or she partook in sexual rites with a partner.

Through the sacred act of love, they sought to merge the dual nature of their sexuality into an ecstatic union. Through this came the harmonization of their own internal masculine and feminine polarities and a realization of the blissful nature of the Self.

Kerri

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« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2004, 18:07:07 »

yes, Lighthouse, i would like to try tantra too. My current partner is not...ambitious in any way and our sex life falters. My own fault though, i've often let fear control my actions and decisions. At least i can recognize and work toward removing the blocks. I've heard of people having sex for 8 hours or more, and multiple male orgasms. Like anything i imagine it takes practice (and a free weekend with a healthy mate!)
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« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2004, 00:02:47 »

Hi All,
How can there be conflict between spirituality and sexuality ?  We are spiritual beings incarnate in human flesh, we chose this life with all it's characteristics, so we accepted that we would have a sexual nature.  If we as Souls had no problem with that then there cannot be any conflict between the two.  

What conflict there has been historically must have been man-made, based on out-moded belief systems supplied by man-made religions.  In which case any conflict between the two was created as a control mechanism.  

During the rise of christianity (in it's more bloodthirsty times) the church in Rome wanted to stop people following the ancient ways and performing ritual sex in the fields and sacred places.  What better way than to inform the masses that such activity was Satan's doing, in which case it supported the horrendous attitude that women were inherently evil, so therefore having sex with one was also evil.  Which is one reason why it was thought we were all Sinners.  Strangely enough though, having sex was okay with 'God' if it was to make babies... two rules, more control.

Celibacy has been chosen by 'holy people' as a means to focus attention on their task of growing in spiritual understanding.. which is very unbalanced in view of the fact that we are spiritual beings.  I say this because being incarnate as a human means to be sexual in nature and to remove ourselves from the world in this way is as unbalanced as the person who wants as much sex as possible.  So how can balance be obtained if we remove ourselves from human experience ?  All things in moderation is one of the keys to balancing our human and spiritual nature, to bridge the void between the two.

You do not need to learn Tantra in order to have the complete sexual oneness that it's adherents claim.  After all, it is based on a man-made belief system.  All it takes is for the partners to not focus on their own satisfaction and desires, which we all do, and choose instead to want their partner to be pleasured before themselves.  In taking the time to go slowly both man and woman can have multiple orgasms without the usual erectile dysfunction that happens after ejaculation.  If your attention is focused on your partners satisfaction then you will not have that little limp problem.

According to my dictionary Chaste means to be pure and to have not had any sexual experience, so it means to be a Virgin.  Where-as Celibacy is a choice to not partake of your human-sexual nature in order to focus you attention on your growth.  But, we grow anyway, and even more-so through our human experiences, which must include sexual activity.  No point in denying yourself the experiences.

Love Always. [Smiley]
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« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2004, 00:34:09 »

quote:
Originally posted by Tayesin

Hi All,
How can there be conflict between spirituality and sexuality ?  We are spiritual beings incarnate in human flesh, we chose this life with all it's characteristics, so we accepted that we would have a sexual nature.  If we as Souls had no problem with that then there cannot be any conflict between the two.  

What conflict there has been historically must have been man-made, based on out-moded belief systems supplied by man-made religions.  In which case any conflict between the two was created as a control mechanism.  



DAMN!! You make so much sense! [Wink]  EXACTLY!!!  Thanks Tayesin... damn organized religions... How many layers does one have to peel before reaching the truth???



Kerri
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« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2004, 05:32:08 »

Hello Kerri,

Regarding your original post:
quote:
Originally posted by Lighthouse
In it, Peck states that in many fundamentalist viewpoints, sex is the devil or evil trying to tempt us to be lustful and sinful (a belief that neither myself nor Peck subscribe to) and that God would not be a sexual being.  Some of these groups would purport that God is a-sexual and living a spiritual life in the truest sense means denying the yearnings of the flesh (a belief that many organized religions have adopted.)



Unfortunately, those fundamentalists are partially right, but for wrong reasons because they possess wrong understanding.

Sex is not the devil - in just about any sense of that sentence. That's just absurd, though I do understand how they came up with that saying. Sex can and most often is lustful, and how it may be sinful is a subject that would require many more paragraphs to explain, so I shall abstain in this regard.

You see when it comes to copulation, eating and sleeping, for most of us, there is very little difference between being human or animal. This is because those acts are instinctual and humans often act in the same way as animals. Getting back to the sex part, animals do not know love or spirituality, they are purely instinctive. Lust is mainly about fulfilling a physical sexual urge - an instinct. We are born with that and we all have such instincts. Is it wrong? It is not a question of being wrong or right. Things are not so black and white and definitive. It is right or wrong depending on our spiritual level of evolution, our level of intellect and understanding of things esoteric pertaining to sexuality. A baby who takes the toy of another baby is less wrong than a thief who knows that stealing is wrong and does it anyway - although in essence they both really performed the same act. So how wrong it may be is relevant to our level of understanding and in essence, level of evolvement as a human being.

There does exist a hierarchy of beings (minerals, plants, animals, humans, elementals, deities, angels, demons, etc), and yes they all influence us (whether we can see them or not), but for the most part it is not the "devil" that tempts us. Who can say they have truly seen the devil? I think if we ever met such a demon, we would not be around to talk about it. LOL! It is our own basic and underdeveloped human side that makes us act instinctual or lustful. By being less human (using less intellect, less will power, being less loving etc) we are thus more animalistic. Falling into temptation can to some extent be described as simply lacking sufficient will power, which is a quality of being less human.  

If you study Satanism even at a very basic level you will understand that the core of their belief system is to participate in as many pleasurable acts as possible - they worship themselves. In essence, what they really seek is happiness like every other human being who is not a Satanist, but their method of acquiring happiness is sadly very distorted because instead of elevating themselves to become more human and to eventually experience salvation/enlightenment aka " eternal bliss/paradise", they mistakenly think that by becoming more animalistic and fulfilling their every instinct (and thus falling to every temptation) will bring them pleasure and thus happiness... and it does, but its only the very temporary kind. No physical pleasure is eternal! So they ride waves of poor types of happiness (e.g. lustful sex), to then suffering afterwards because it is physically impossible to have lustful sex continuously into eternity. The above explains at a basic level the reason the devil is associated with the term "the beast" and why Christ's teachings urge us to resist temptation.

As far as God goes, and that is even a far lengthier subject; let me just say that anybody who thinks they can put into words what God is, is only an ignorant fool. So to claim god is sexual or a-sexual or whatever, is just complete non-sense.

So often we see the books of self-proclaimed spiritual people talking about God, and attempting to define it... it is rather silly endeavour in my mind. The highest goal of any of the major religions is to become one with "God", because amongst many other reasons, the only way to TRULY know something is to be that something! To be one with it.  When we observe things externally we can only describe subjectively what that something is. For example, if I attempt to describe an apple, I can say it is red, round, weighs about 1/4 lbs, etc. I can go on for a while describing various physical characteristics of it, but could I possibly really describe it to such an extent that it would encompass everything that the apple truly is ?? No! Of course not. I could not possibly know what it tastes like for example by simply observing it externally. And so how some so called spiritual people (e.g. Mr. Peck) think they can accurately describe "God" when they haven't even truly "seen it" or become One with it (the definition of enlightenment), well to me they are only talking about things they do not truly know! So, please let us use a little rationality! Smiley


quote:

Peck goes on to disagree with the notion that sexuality and spirituality are in conflict with one another... Stating that the physical union of flesh is the desire to know and unite with the Beloved, also the quest for spiritual enlightenment is the desire to know and unite with the Beloved.  He sees no conflict.  He then goes on to say that sex "screws things up" and that we often confuse the object of our sexual yearning for God and this is what makes sex a "problem" (he states that we all have problems with sex: Married people, single people, straight people, gay people, men, women and even Scott Peck.)



"Sexuality and spirituality are in conflict with another" is such a vague and broad statement that it is almost pointless to try to discuss it, but I will take a quick shot at it here.

When sex is lustful, yes it very much is in conflict with spiritual growth because as I've already explained to be lustful is to be animalistic and when we are being animalistic we are not being more human and ascending toward the divine aspects of ourselves, instead we are descending in the opposite direction.  On the other hand, sex when performed in certain ways (and there are several of these...and, no I'm not talking about 101 kama sutra positions here..heh), can indeed help the human being ascend spiritually, so in that sense no it is not in conflict with spirituality.

The physical union of flesh has nothing to do with a desire to know and unite with the Beloved. Physical union of the flesh is an instinctive behaviour with a subconscious purpose of reproduction of the species. That said, the second statement is mostly accurate regarding enlightenment and uniting with the beloved, assuming beloved means "God".

"sexual yearning for God"? Where does this guy come up with this stuff? How many people do you know (including yourself) that when having sex with another human being has had the thought and "yearning" to really be having sex with God?!

quote:

Then he goes on to state that if indeed we are made in Gods image, perhaps God is a sexual being, passionate, sexual, spiritual and sensual.  I have heard and read of experiencing the Divine in a truly passionate, even erotic encounter.  Many saints have written poetry on this as well as had written accounts of experiencing true passion through their Beloved Lord, God.



The statement that we are made in God's image has nothing to do with physical or physiological aspects of ourselves. It does not take too intellectual a human to reach that conclusion. We are *NOT* all the same physically. Some of us are born black, some white, others grow to be 4 feet tall, others 7 feet tall, some of us weight a mere 80lbs, others 500! So because we are not all identical twins, or even close to that, obviously that statement has nothing to do with physical aspects of being human. That statement, like most others in the bible should not be interpreted at the surface level, because to do so is to completely misunderstand it. The simplest of spiritual people have this grand idea that God is this large fatherly figure with long white beard sitting on a thrown up in heaven overlooking Earth. Please, let us leave such irrational imaginings to children's cartoons. The bible makes several refernces of god as an eternal flame of the brightest light. We are but individual sparks from that flame, and so in that symbolic sense yes we are made in its image. Our spirits are those sparks. But I dare not go on, because to do so would be to fall into the same trap as the rest of the spiritual book writers who claim to understand God. *grin*


quote:

1.  Does anyone understand well enough the difference (if any) between being celibate and Chaste?  



I think others have adequately answered this one already.

quote:

2. What are your views on Spirituality and Sexuality?  Is there a conflict between the 2 and if so why?  



I've touched on this already to some extent. I will only add that sexuality in practically all its forms is a necessary thing. Physical sex is necessary for the reproduction of the species. The reproduction of the species serves the purpose of humans to incarnate and eventually work on their spiritual selves.  Humans that are more spiritually evolved will know how to use sex to ascend even further spiritually. These may indulge in practices which have nothing to do with the reproduction of the species and which do not necessarily require another human being.  This is because in part the ultimate goal of humans (whether they are aware of it or not) is to unity with God, and not another human being. A mere observation of the inter-human sexual act reveals to us symbolically that two bodies try to merge into one, but never, ever, do they succeed. In the end they both end up two separate entities as they began and the goal is not accomplished. Their "other half" is not another imperfect human, but instead through certain spiritual practices which require the perfection of the Self allows them to come closer and closer to uniting with their true other half often referred to as the higher-self, God - the perfected half. Like oil(imperfect) on water(perfect), the two can not merge together, but when perfection is merged with perfection, a single unity of perfection is possible.

This is why Christ said to "know thyself", because to do so is to know who you are (good and bad) and by identifying your faults and imperfections you are then in a good position to begin to do the hard work of transforming those so that you become a more perfect human whose pureness reflects and *IS* the image of God!

quote:

3. Why is it that most Holy Men and Women choose to be celibate?  Does it enhance their passion for the Divine by harnessing that passion instead of being distracted by the longings (and idolotry) of the object of their physical adoration?



Celibacy is a greatly misunderstood subject in our spiritually poor western society. Catholic priests who are supposedly celibate often end up masturbating to release that sexual tension (like most normal men do, or having sex but just not having it known publicly), or if they really are capable of remaining celibate for long periods of time (many months or years) they usually end up either committing horrific sexual acts (e.g. molesting children), and often developing severe prostate problems due to inactivity of their sexual organs. The reason for this is because they, once again, have misunderstood the holy teachings because they are merely interpreting symbolic teachings word for word at the surface level.

Abstaining from sex does not make a human more holy! Such is an act of asceticism which is an act of extremism, and extreme acts lead to extreme consequences! If we abuse our bodies (by either having too much sex, or abstaining from it all together), we shall suffer the consequences! Balance is the key.

That said, it is entirely possible to not engage in the physical sexual act, and be celibate in the truly intended way of the various scriptures and avoid all problems stated above (re: priests). The key to this is to learn how to TRANSFORM the sexual energy we accumulate, into spiritual energy. Such practices are the ones taught in a certain type of Yoga, they are the same practices of Taoist sexology, the same practices of *correct* Sexual Alchemy .

The transformation of base metals into gold is NOT (yet again to be interpreted literally) a physical practice aiming to make one monetarily rich, it is however the internal practice of transforming the inner self from an imperfect being to something spiritually pure, reflecting light and of high value (like gold). Such is a compilation of various types of practices, one of which is the transformation of sexual energy into spiritual energy. To give a clue, it is related with moving the sexual energy from the sex organs up through the various chakras and storing it in certain energy centres in the bioplasmic part of the human body which then results in the increase of one's vitality, intellect, health and after prolonged practice, increase in spiritual maturity.


*Choosing* to be celibate, has often little to do with choice, but rather blindly obliging to doctrines whose original intent has been distorted and is grossly misunderstood. Celibacy without proper transformation of the sexual energy does not enhance passion for the Divine, but rather increases only passion in the erotic sense. Harnessing passion is not sufficient. Transformation of sexual energies is however absolutely necessary!  

It is not that they are merely distracted by their longings because (in the male body at least) the accumulation of sexual energy by being celibate can grow to such an extent that even the slightest hint of anything sexy (like mere bare skin of any part of the body) can become the biggest distraction leading to a physical sexual act (whether sex with a partner or masturbation).

And btw, such men are very often only "holy" in the eyes of other ignorant men and they are bestowed such titles either by organizational election (e.g. Christian Church) or by other not so holy men (e.g. government officials). Holiness is not something that is bestowed upon man by another man, and it is something one works upon and becomes and to which there is little point in trying to quantify externally... but that's a subject for a whole other post Wink

Take good care,
Adept of Light
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« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2004, 08:28:33 »

Hmm. Had a short celibacy and must say that it helped
_VERY_ much. Literally felt afterwards like my energy stores
had been filled to the maximum.

I think it would be very healthy for many to have 2-3 weeks
of complete celibacy as it really changes your viewpoint of
the whole thing. And no you do not get more horny or an intensified sexual drive. It is quite the opposite, it actually
reduces.

As someone said "the choice have to come from the spirit
and not the ego" [|)]
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« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2004, 12:01:31 »

Tayesin, that was awesome! Thanks. I suppose i understood inherently what you said about Spirit choosing a sexual existense, and all things in moderation, but it helps to have someone with wise words put it into context again. I myself really really feel that my higher self choose to delay my experiences to concentrate my spiritual growth in other directions. But you're right, we are extremely sexual beings, and it is beautful and wonderful and exciting. And having TOO much sex is probably just as bad a celibacy. Moderation of the mind/body/spirit is a goal on earth, and lesson to learn to harmonzie with our higher selves.
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« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2004, 13:01:24 »


Adept of Light,
Can I say that the perception of the Higher-Self as being God is a bit of a misnomer really.  The Great and powerful Beings that each of us are, is our Higher-Self, which in turn is a diversified portion of the Creative Awareness (god), so while the identification is apt, it is not so in the strictest sense.  I did like your point about us being little parts of the Flame/Light, just we are not so little, only our perceptions and brainwashing have us think that way.

Also, I have to say this.... the concept of us being imperfect is very much religious dogma and not at all factual in the bigger picture.  It is something that was used to disempower the masses for control.  Unfortunately it is still prevalent in christian circles today.

The term 'made in god's image' actually comes from the Sumerian's recorded history of the beings who created the physical human form.  They were called Annunaki and created many 'beasts' before perfecting their understanding of DNA and creating a prototype worker, which worked well but was unable to think in anything other than a linear fashion.. much like Neanderthal.  Since this wasn't what they wanted they went back to the drawing board and used DNA from Homo Erectus (upright walking man)and themselves to create the prototype they called the Adamma.  Which is where the name Adam comes from.

The Sumerian texts predate all religious texts by thousands of years, and it was in Sumer that the fledgling Hebrews came to have their 'book of genesis'( before going to Egypt) .. which is a highly edited version of the Sumerian texts.  Actually, the Sumerian Texts were written in 5,200 bce on the urging of the Annunaki themselves, which also goes to explain why so many of the ancient mythologies are so very similar, since they brought scribes in from around the world to record the creation stories etc.

Interestingly, much of the technical information supplied by the Annunaki to the Sumerians has proven to be correct.  Only very recently has our Science been able to validate it from our own observations.

My information on the Annunaki is taken from the research of an old and dear friend of mine who deciphered the Sumerian Texts for the British Museum way back last century now.  She made a point of not adding anything, she simply deciphered into plain English language without the 'extra' bits that have found there way into the stories through Sitchin's books.  Sitchin and my friend Roma worked on the decipering at the same time and had many arguments over the ability Sitchin had to extrapolate and add his own flavour to them. LOL

And my perceptions on spirituality and the bigger pictures comes from having had the enlightening Oneness experience back in 1999 when the Guides and I worked together every night.  Please don't see this as blowing my own trumpet, it is only meant to help you gain understanding of why I give this information.

Well I have gotten right of the thread topic there, so I better finish this post, LOL.

Love Always. [Smiley]
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« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2004, 13:47:18 »

That is very interesting information Tayesin.  ALso, good to see you about, as always.  [Smiley]

I would love to find out more.  Do you know of any internet resources or URLs with information of the Sumarians or the Annunaki?  Is anything of your friends translations published?  I hope you could see where studying the sources of ancient religious texts would be very interesting to me.

What ever you can do, or simply for your previous post - Thanks![Smiley]
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« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2004, 14:38:01 »

I agree kiauma. Tayesin, can you link us to other information about the Summerians? I've heard my own stories about how our DNA was coddled from extraterrestrial sources because it was deficient in some ways. I wonder how this might blend with what you mentioned of the Annuaki. Really, any more light you can shed on the subject would be of use.

How does one explain the dinosaurs of millions of years ago, and the rise and fall of Neanderthal men and earlier species? Were they experimental, OR (as i heard) degenerates from failed and dead societies (like Atlantis) on a decline to extinction after their destruction. Hmm. Hurts the ol noggin sometimes to think so much on what is hard to prove.
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« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2004, 20:02:01 »

Ahem...

Back on topic [Cheesy]


So what I'm seeing here is that there is a general consensus here that there is no conflict between sexuality and spirituality.  The conflict seems to be between what mainly christian religions define as sin and our true nature.  As Adept_of_Light stated, is it wrong to have sex out of lust?  Abstaining for reasons other than the true desire to do so can lead to physical ailments by repressing those urges (as all repressions and toxic thoughts seem to do in one form or another) and creating a toxic relationship between our instincts, desires and sexual nature VS our cultural, religious and moralistic conditioning.  It seems tho me that this is the conflict in all issues regarding sex and spirituality... not just the abstensiton... that we are imposing our own man-made or man-proclaimed barriers and limitations against our nature...

Which leads me to ask the question, Which is the greater sin... expecting one to live against their own nature by imposing rules or allowing people to live in the way that is in harmony with their nature and reserving judgment?  I'll take the life of working in harmony with my nature any day. [^]


Kerri





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« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2004, 00:50:25 »


Christian Alert:
Be alert to persons starting a thread (in this case,spirituality) without a personal statement or comment in it. It's an, ask the question, comment later, so it will "fit" trick.

Notice this thread has evolved into an anti-Christian trend by the person starting it.

Lighthouse,
Be ready to live by the very thing you preach or say. It works in more than one way. Don't ever hold others to a standard, you yourself reject.

Christianity is not your conscience. Your letting it be. Why else do you make such a statement? Your still held by universal laws. You can run, but you can't hide from it. Don't use christians as your scapegoat.

If your partner and you have problems, don't blame a religion.

Tayesin seems to have motivated you by statements more than likely has NOT been a personal experience.Anti-Christians are everywhere. So Tayesin places common "cut downs" in the posts, it doesn't mean you have to.

Tantra sex has been made into a commercial gimmick. It's been exploited so as for a seeker to want something he/she does not have. Would you or anybody else know about such a thing unless you read about it? Your head is easily turned. It seems that you are trying to form a system of beliefs based on the last comment from another to suit YOU. May I suggest you discover your own commitments and convictions. Sorry, and a warning....the outcome may not be very comfortable to your flesh. Oops...is that a christian term?  Let's call it physical,or what ever word comes closer to this discomfort.Just because Tayesin made a stab at others, doesn't mean you have to listen or believe. It will be interesting to see where it gets Tayesin, but that's another subject.

Why is the highth or strength  of a matter measured by christianity standards? Can't things be talked about with placing christianty as the bad example? You make christianity credible by this very standard of measurement.You are not helping your cause or purpose by crushing it like a cigarette, holy smoke! [Smiley]

Religion is a springboard to higher understanding.Many walk away angry. You can either curse a messenger, or move forward to understanding what it's all about, no judgment is necessary. If one chooses to be non jugmental, you may be open to who your real enemy is. Clue...it's not God, religions, or even the churches. Now....is this thread about this subject?  Was this the original intention for this thread start? If so, there is a big section on christianity, there for all you who care to bash it.

Adept_of_Light
Great post.There were also some very good posts. I wouldn't have attempted this subject if I had known it was going to turn into a christian vs everything else.

What is sin to you, Lighthouse? Isn't that a christian term? Maybe try karma creation instead. Have fun with your new found discoveries.Remember it's yours, not others...and don't hold these others to your standards (many surprizes await you). Stop baiting people.  

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« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2004, 08:07:55 »

Hello again Kerri,
quote:
Originally posted by Lighthouse
So what I'm seeing here is that there is a general consensus here that there is no conflict between sexuality and spirituality.  



No. There can be conflict because sexuality is like a knife, whomever holds it can do good (to themselves spiritually) or bad (to themselves spiritually). Most humans use sexuality for the purpose of temporary pleasure and reproduction. This is almost a necessary phase in the human soul evolution. Lessons are learned by establishing and passing through various types of relationships, but these are very low level and "poor" lessons compared to the gigantic steps that are taken when sexuality is worked upon esoterically, but then again not all, in fact, most humans are not ready for this type of work and delving too early into such endevours could have adverse affects too. All good things, in good time. There is no need to rush, our spirits are eternal! =)

I'd say the two are definitely interconnected (sex and spirituality), and what happens to one certainly affects the other. In the end, depending on our individual states of personal development, the appropriate phase of sexuality and spiritual development must be undertaken in order for us to grow. There exist many levels to both sex and spirituality, but the important thing is to develop them in balance. Conflict arises when the two are out of sync or when we digress in the development of either. Lustful sex, as an example is nearly always a digression because of the harm (physically & spiritually) we are doing to ourselves if we never grow beyond this type of sex. That said, sometimes we need to undergo a relationship experiencing this type of sex to later realize what a poor cousin it is to sex with a partner whom we "love". This is a very extensive subject, and I've barely scratched the surface.

quote:

The conflict seems to be between what mainly christian religions define as sin and our true nature.



The problem is that we believe our true nature is who we are, but our true nature is really a divine one and our function here is to ascend towards it. The concept of sin is to help us avoid the pitfalls of temptation (to use christian terms) and work toward reaching our true nature of being more human (as per my last post).

I believe that by "our true nature" you meant our desires and needs as the human beings we are today, but those so called needs we have are not ours, but belong to our temporal Egos which are sperate from our spirits, and it is our Egos which keep us in the perception of being seperate from the whole. Remove the Ego, and you remove desires, you remove needs and all the sins that go along with fulfiling those desires and needs, what remains afterwards is our true nature in all its purity. wink

quote:

Which leads me to ask the question, Which is the greater sin... expecting one to live against their own nature by imposing rules or allowing people to live in the way that is in harmony with their nature and reserving judgment?  I'll take the life of working in harmony with my nature any day. [^]



Living against your own nature by imposing rules can actually be a very good thing for one's growth, assuming those rules are meant to help eradicate bad behaviour inherent in your present nature. Organized religeon is a good example of this, and I would go as far as saying that it is a necessary thing and there are a lot of people that gain and grow through its engagement.

If your nature is not so great, rules can be a good thing, because they can be used as a self-disciplining tool for one's transformation and growth. If your nature is great, rules can act negatively by posing as barriers of limitation and thus inhibiting growth.

Living in harmony with one's nature may sound like a great thing, and it is, but I believe most of us who try to do this fail. If our true nature is an enlightened one, then yes we will be in permanent harmony, but since most of us are not enlightened, we can not live in this manner. What we then do is often mistakenly try to live within our present nature in a harmoneous way, and this sounds great at first because there would obviously be less conflict with the self. The problem is that humans tend to stagnate in growth when they are too comfortable in their peaceful settings. Challenges and suffering unfortunately or fortunately bring about far more rapid growth.

The best thing (well for me anyway) is to work introspectively and seek positive change in myself constantly, because then I can grow by leaps and bounds with minimal suffering ( I am fixing problems in myself before they have a chance to manifest to any great extent) and without having to live constrained by the rules and creeds of others because by trying to know myself, I know which rules are best for me. This method tends to bring about a relatively harmoneous growth without stagnation.

Reserving judgement toward others is mostly a good thing... most people don't like to be criticized. Reserving judgement toward yourself can be debilitating toward personal growth. Over judging ourselves in a negative context is also debilitating toward personal growth, balance as the old cliche goes, is key.

Cheers,
Adept of Light
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« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2004, 10:02:34 »

Wisp:
quote:
Notice this thread has evolved into an anti-Christian trend by the person starting it


I fail to notice this. Could you provide the facts you used to arrive at the conclusion?
I believe your post borders the ad hominem argumentative fallacy in that it seems to attack the author instead of the subject matter.

2cents & L&L
Jouni
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« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2004, 11:54:36 »

quote:

 
quote:
Notice this thread has evolved into an anti-Christian trend by the person starting it




I fail to notice this. Could you provide the facts you used to arrive at the conclusion?
I believe your post borders the ad hominem argumentative fallacy in that it seems to attack the author instead of the subject matter.


Agreed, there doesn't seem to be any christian bashing going on ! Lets keep the fine debate running.
Mark
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« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2004, 12:51:05 »

Hi All,
Adept, an excellent post there, I enjoyed your comprehensive perceptions on the thread topic.  And I admire that you are applying yourself to balanced growth.

Wisp, if a person wants to help by awakening others from their belief system boxes then it may well appear as bashing to those who wish to hold those beliefs.  Our perceptions can be based in Belief (creating the experience) or Experience (living it without forming belief systems around it).  When truth appears as bashing it serves to point a direction for the perceiver's growth, don't you think ?

About the Annunaki stuff.  I hope no one got the impression that I was throwing mud at Sitchin or his work.  Just some things like the Annunaki suspending gold mined from earth in their planet's atmosphere do not actually appear on the Tablets.  Yet his book "The Twelth Planet" is still the best introduction to the deciphered texts that you can get a copy of.  

Lust, even the word sounds lusty.  Being a part of the human make-up it must be fine to accept your Lust, even if it is ubalanced in you.  Then you need to live with it to grow through it.

We can Love and Lust the same person with no apparent fears that we are contradicting ourselves, so why worry over it.. do what you know and feel is 'right' for you, as Adept expressed so well.

Love Always. [Smiley]

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