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Poll
Question: Do these practices go against christianity  (Voting closed: October 12, 2004, 00:24:09)
Yes - 12 (16%)
No - 51 (68%)
Undecided - 12 (16%)
Total Voters: 64

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Author Topic: Against Christianity?  (Read 23064 times)
Quantitativefool
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« on: October 12, 2004, 00:24:09 »

I have just recently been starting various energy raising stuff and projection ect. I am also a fairly faithful Catholic. My question is wether or not any of these practices are against Christianity or any religion in general? I personally don't think they are but I am no theologian. Please post your thoughts on this.
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MJ-12
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« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2004, 02:29:59 »

yt
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« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2004, 02:29:59 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2004, 03:51:43 »

Depends on your views of Christianity. A more open-minded form, or person, would be much more open to such things, like the occult. But obviously, more fundamentalist Christians would be more likely to claim that such things are blasphemy and evil.
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paker7
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« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2004, 03:57:18 »

I voted NO and i'm sure that at least 90% of the astral pulse members will vote like me.

It would be very interesting to see the results of a similiar poll on a christian forum.
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paker7
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« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2004, 04:01:16 »

Quote
I voted NO and i'm sure that at least 90% of the astral pulse members will vote like me.


oops - i was wrong shocked  0% 66% 33% right now  cheesy
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« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2004, 04:01:16 »



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Akensai
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« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2004, 16:45:56 »

Quote from: Quantitativefool
I have just recently been starting various energy raising stuff and projection ect. I am also a fairly faithful Catholic. My question is wether or not any of these practices are against Christianity or any religion in general? I personally don't think they are but I am no theologian. Please post your thoughts on this.


Yes, for most catholics the anwser would be yes i think. So are you going to stop now?  

(asking on this board is not very smart, anyone here probably practice this stuff themselfs, so would they say no?)
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Quantitativefool
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« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2004, 22:09:46 »

Thanks for all of your replies, I think that it, for the most part, isn't going to be accepted very well in the church and by members but I am still going to keep practicing it. Also I talked to a person who teaches a highschool theology class and he basically said as long as you don't 'manipulate the spirit world for personal good' your safe. ect. well thanks and keep posting.
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exothen
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« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2004, 03:30:07 »

I would say no because I don't practice anything on these boards. I am the token "fundy" on these boards, but even by Christian standards, I am much more open-minded than a fundamentalist (but I do remain conservative and adhere to orthodoxy).

There is Christian spirituality, mostly within Eastern Christianity, but there has always been a distinction made between an "Eastern" spirituality and "Eastern Christian" spirituality (for lack of a better way of describing it at the moment). To simply accept all things spiritual is detrimental to oneself, as there are spiritual practices that can be harmful. There are practices that are similar, very similar in some instances, but they still remain different. The vast majority of the spiritual practices on these boards I would consider harmful practices that are ignorant of the spiritual forces that exist and just what their purposes are.
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paker7
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« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2004, 15:01:27 »

I wonder what does your priest (and your fellow Catholics) think about a "christian meditation" ? Smiley
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exothen
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« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2004, 19:34:03 »

First, I am not Catholic, I'm an Evangelical Protestant. Second, I'm sure many Evangelicals would think that Christian meditation is "New Age," but I don't think it is. This is precisely one of those practices that very closely resembles the Eastern religious practice, but the main differences are the purpose of it and what the mind is focusing on.

It is really hard to say what most Evangelicals would think of actual meditation since most do believe in meditation in the sense of simply contemplating a certain verse or passage of Scripture (if you were to ask a typical Evangelical, you would get a similar response). But I believe in the breathing and focusing that is thought of as "New Age" or Eastern by most Christians.

I have only discovered this within the last year, so I am still trying to learn about the Christian spiritual practices. And then I want to actually practice them.
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Berserk
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« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2004, 23:05:50 »

Dear QuantitativeFool,

My latest post to my thread entitled "A Fresh Look at Heaven" was partly crafted with you in mind.   I present biblical and early Christian examples of astral exploration.   So you might want to check it out.  

In Catholic monastaries, in the field of Spiritual Direction and in Catholic prayer retreats, certain "techniques" are often used in meditation.  Meditation is stressed more than prayer in the biblical Psalms.   The Bible often commands believers to meditate.  

I would rephrase your issue this way:   "What factors in these meditation techniques could conceivably make it unsafe?"   Let's brainstorm here.  Perhaps if you consciously or unconsciously wanted to invite discarnate spirits of unknown spirituality to bond with your spirit?, Or if you wanted to master astral exploration for nefarious purposes?   Or what if you generated so much fear that this fear attracted negative entities to you?   Once you get clear that none of these questions is that big a deal for you, go ahead and use Robert Bruce's techniques.   I intend to buy RB's latest book and explore his techniques myself.    

Best wishes,
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aryanknight666
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shunkan_shu
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« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2004, 00:52:55 »

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SomeBloke
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« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2004, 23:42:03 »

Quote
he goes around with his desciples EXCORCISING 'EVIL SPIRITS' out of sooth sayers, fortune tellers, mystics, and sorcerers.


Hi, can you provide a reference for this? I would be interested to read it.
Lots of casting out spirits but I thought all the stuff you're talking about was in the Old Testament.

I would have voted no in the poll because I think that early Christians
had a much more esoteric doctrine than made it into the bible.
I think Quantitativefool has nothing to worry about, and he might be interested to google for vatican secret archives and check out www.essene.com especially the end of book 4
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Quantitativefool
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« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2004, 02:06:32 »

Thanks for the link, it was really interesting
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Corban
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« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2004, 02:36:55 »

Hey,

I was wondering if a moderator would be a little more specific about exactly which of "these practices" we're refering to.

Thanks

A.K.666,

quote:  "You can find a thread I made about this in the 'magic' forum and it has pages full of quotes from the buybull which directly and violently condemn occultism, spirituality and esotoricm as the worst things a christian or a jew can do. "

Occultism, yes; spirituality and esotericm, no.

quote: "If you think jebus (Jesus?) supported this, look at the new testament, he goes around with his desciples EXCORCISING 'EVIL SPIRITS' out of sooth sayers, fortune tellers, mystics, and sorcerers."

No he doesn't.
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aryanknight666
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« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2004, 08:53:07 »

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violetrose
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« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2004, 14:44:38 »

Dear aryanknight666,

The three Magi who visited Jesus at his birth were likely magicians of the order of the Magi a historically documented order that existed at that time.  The church may have problems with magicians but it seems like Jesus did not.  If Jesus did walk on water, turned water into wine, multiplied food etc. he had a very good understanding of elemental magic.

violetrose
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Corban
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« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2004, 00:13:47 »

What's up AK,

“Esotoricism and occultism are exactly the same word in different languages, and with the same meaning.  Spirituality IS the occult.”

Well those three words have different definitions in this language, and those definitions are distinguished in Hebrew (Language of the Old Testament).

“Spirituality"

1 : something that in ecclesiastical law belongs to the church or to a cleric as such
2 : CLERGY
3 : sensitivity or attachment to religious values
4 : the quality or state of being spiritual
 
A look at the first definition should convince you that no priest of minister will deny the importance of spirituality.  Every religion is based on spirituality.  “G-d is spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.”  (John 4:24)


"es•o•ter•i•cism"

1 : esoteric doctrines or practices
2 : the quality or state of being esoteric

In other words being secretive, but the word does not define of what you are being secretive about.  “Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.” -Jesus (Matt. 13:11).  No, the Bible never “violently condemns” this.  Niether does it openly promote it, but I wouldn’t say we’re being to esoteric concerning AP, energy work or any of the other subjects we’re discussing.
 
“According to you, Jebus doesn't excercise spirits out of fortune tellers and sooth sayers and the like.”

Has nothing to do with me.  According to the Gospels there is no reference for your claim.  There is a girl in Mark 7:30 who Jesus casts a demon out of and and she is never referred to as a fortune teller or anything else, and the demon was only cast out because her mother begged Jesus to do it.  Coincidently every individual who was freed of demons by Jesus was grateful.      

“If you challenged any preist or minister by saying that jesus doesn't condemn the occult and spirituality, then, I would like to see that.”

You are correct that many of the practices in the occult are prohibited in scripture.  I haven’t found AP, energy work or breath awareness to be among that list.

How's it going Violetrose?

As you may know the three Magi from the East (i.e. Babylon) probably got their instruction and clues concerning the Messiah from the Chief of the Magi (Magicians), Daniel (Dan 4:9) hundreds of years ealier; although he himself was not a magician.  He was appointed Chief because he did what no magician could do, interperet  Nebuchadnezzar's dream.  Many G-dly men of the Bible, including Jesus, did supernatural things that are mimicked in magic, but you'll find that magic was not the source of their ability.
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exothen
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« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2004, 03:51:09 »

violetrose,

Quote
The three Magi who visited Jesus at his birth were likely magicians of the order of the Magi a historically documented order that existed at that time. The church may have problems with magicians but it seems like Jesus did not. If Jesus did walk on water, turned water into wine, multiplied food etc. he had a very good understanding of elemental magic.


First, just because Magi visited Christ as a child doesn't mean that he approved of magicians. They came to him because they saw in the stars the sign that a king had been born and they went to pay homage. Nothing more.

Second, Jesus makes it clear that everything he did, he did by the power of the Holy Spirit to glorify God. He did not perform magic of any sort. In fact, that is close to what Jesus called "blaspheming the Holy Spirit." To blaspheme the Holy Spirit, according to the passage it appears in, is to attribute the power of the Holy Spirit to Satan.


Corban,

Quote
G-dly


I don't think I've seen you on here before (not that I'm on here a lot). Are you a Jew? Or b'nai Noach (sp?) perhaps?
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violetrose
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« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2004, 05:17:12 »

Dear exothen,

It is not by might or by power but by the holy spirit that the greatest things can be done. Cheesy  

But the holy spirit is merely another name for the original pure consciousness of God as well as the original pure energy from which all else was originally created.  Of course all of this is just my humble opinion and could be total hooie and trust me I never discount that possibility.

A good elemental magician (few and far between) understands the original energies and consciousness as well as the elemental energies.  The elements and all else being born from this original energy.  Matter is just slowed down energy.  Jesus understood how to form the elements from the original energies and did not just mucking about or manipulate existing lower elemental energies as many magicians do.  Magic is a dirtied word for many.  Maybe instead we could say, "Jesus did elemental formation from the original God forces (pure energy and consciousness passing through akasha to form)."  Generally speaking, words people prefer merely reflect their perspective and view of the same thing.      

To me Jesus was the ultimate magician because he did not have to muck about with lower energies or potions etc etc.  And unlike some who muck about he (based on the literature I have read - the new testement) had noble intentions etc. etc.  Jesus worked with the holy spirit (original pure consciousness) and the original energies.  For me, (that's just me of course wink ) whether I have blasphemied actually depends on how I define a magician.  I define a magician as anyone who knowingly and intentionally works with energy and consciousness.  The problem is there is a mighty huge range from 'Saint' to 'Sinner' held within that definition.

Best Wishes to ya,
violetrose

P.S. Hi Corban! Smiley
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kalratri
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« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2004, 18:48:32 »

People hurting people ON PURPOSE using black magic or demons or by witchcraft, definately does go against most religons.


People should try to distinguish what the church thinks about Jesus as opposed to what Jesus taught and Jesus before his crucifixion and Jesus after his crucifixion.

Whatever Jesus' failings before the crucifixion, was purified upon crucifixion.  

Jesus still had a pure heart, only someone with a pure heart can attain to such powers, and so yes I am pro-Jesus Cool .  

His voluntary crucifixion is an inspirational story about human suffering, death and immortality, and is ONE of the stories that has inspired me during my darkest hours, whenever I feel like giving up cry (I'm dealing with my own witches).  Of course I have a bias towards him since he gave me a vision of himself...
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« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2004, 00:51:24 »

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Corban
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« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2004, 02:45:23 »

Hi Violetrose,

You ask a good question, and I think you presented it in a very logical way.  The Bible prohibits all forms of sorcery (Heb. “Kessep”) in Duet. 18:10.  In Exodus 7:11 the terms magician and sorcerer are shown to be synonymous from the Bible’s perspective.  Jesus could not have been who he, and the New Testament, claimed if he was practicing magic/sorcery.  But I think the more important point is that his ability to manipulate the natural realm didn’t need to come from magic.  Exodus 7 contains the big competition between magic, which G-d was/is against, and the miraculous, which G-d worked through Moses and Aaron.  There is another route to the supernatural beyond magic.


Shalom Exothen,

I’ve been loitering around this forum for a couple of months, but I haven’t posted much.  I am a Messianic Jew.
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« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2004, 18:06:34 »

There are four gospels because there are four corners of the earth and four elements!  That is what the church fathers said when compiling the NT.

The three wise-men were MAGICIANS.

God gave us the stars to look for signs according to genesis.

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live;  the word from which WITCH was translated actually was from a word that referred to a person that assassinated people using poisons - - not Wiccans.

If you stop blinding accepting what "the church" tells you to fill their collection plates and actually STUDY what the bible teaches, I believe you will be surprised at what is acceptable and what is not.
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exothen
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« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2004, 19:39:43 »

fuji257,

Quote
God gave us the stars to look for signs according to genesis.


Can you provide the verse for this?

Quote
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live; the word from which WITCH was translated actually was from a word that referred to a person that assassinated people using poisons - - not Wiccans.


You might have in mind the Greek word pharmakeia, which is translated as "sorcery" or "witchcraft," but is likely referring to the administering of potions to induce abortion. However, it may also be used of one that mixes potions.

Also, your argument doesn't work because there are other words such as magos and periergos which are translated as "magician" and "magic," respectively.

Deuteronomy 18:10-12:

"10 "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 "For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you."

2 Chronicles 33:6, "He made his sons pass through the fire in the valley of Ben-hinnom; and he practiced witchcraft, used divination, practiced sorcery and dealt with mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him {to anger.}"

Acts 19:19, "19 And many of those who practiced magic brought their books together and began burning them in the sight of everyone; and they counted up the price of them and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver."

Revelation 21:8, " 8 'But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.'"

Quote
If you stop blinding accepting what "the church" tells you to fill their collection plates and actually STUDY what the bible teaches, I believe you will be surprised at what is acceptable and what is not.


Four problems here. You are assuming that: (1) those who accept the Church's teachings accept them blindly, (2) the Church only says certain things to get money, (3) personal study will lead one to different conclusions than the Church's, and (4) your interpretation is correct and Christianity's is not.

How do you know that you are right and the Church, which has been around for 2000 years, is wrong?
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