A word for the so called christians

[Selski]

... so now we know.

Glad I'm not a christian! []

I think you'll get a few interesting replies to this one.

Sarah

[Rastus]

Anyone can quote teh bible to say anything they want.  it's an old facist tradition.  What about the missing sections of the Bible.  Oh, and you need to quote from the original text, not sonskrit converted to Latin, censored by roman emporers, converted 3 times to middle english, re-written numerous times to suit the church, converterd to Italian, converted into English, converted into modern english......it loses something in translation.

What about II Corinthians?  That's the section that deals with Physchic healing and many other talents.

Good think I'm not a christian and subject to all the baggage associated with that particular fanclub of God!

[astralpwka]

(grumbling) But I wanna be a christian and I wanna play out of my body and ocassionally talk to ghosts, and maybe play with a spell or too.

Damn my free will... ooooohhh wait. That hits too close to the topic. [}:)]

[Naiad780]

I must be unobservant--I have noticed no Christian bent to these forums, except in the modern Christianity one.  I must be reading the wrong threads.

As I see it, a Christian has two choices:
a) follow the Bible literally and do many unpleasant, unrealistic things that may even be illegal
b) evaluate the Bible for themselves (with help from their God) and interpret it as best they can to apply to the modern world.  This is what most people do, even if they don't want to admit it.  It's a way of letting the religion evolve.

So if they're interpreting, and can see a way to be Christian and follow occult practices, I'm not going to argue with them.  Most importantly, it's because I don't CARE to tell people how to practice their religion.  I have many better things to focus on, like my own spiritual workings.

I see your point and believe a Christian should certainly be educated about what the Bible (as we have it) says.  However, if they evaluate the literature for themselves and they have a good, well thought-out reason for their beliefs and practices, why should we harrass them?

[Selski]

Well said Naiad

I couldn't have put it better myself. [^]

Sarah

[Wronski Feint]

Dont take the bible litteraly, thats a mistake alot of people make. Im a christian and I do telekinesis and I can remote veiw. I dont beleive its wrong, and I dont think im commiting a sin. I do not, however, think you should envoke other gods into your body. Well for that matter I dont beleive in other gods.

[Risu no Kairu]

Yes. Everything is a sin. So don't do anything. But don't do nothing, because that's a sin, too.

So, don't live. Because to live means to sin. But don't kill yourself. Becasue that's a sin.

And don't do anything you can naturally do, even if by accident. that's a sin. You have abilities you're not supposed to use.

But don't not do them, because that's a sin, becasue you're deny gifts from God.

And remember, throw stones at whores, because they sin, and deserve it. But don't throw stones, because that's a sin.

[The AlphaOmega]

Why be a witch if you believe in Christ?  Christians believe that all things are of and through Christ and the father, not spells and enchantments.  The bible speaks of witchcraft as evil because it takes away from Christ as the source of all miracles and all things spiritual, which is Christ Himself.  The bible was also changed quite drastically in the dark ages, when witchcraft was very much an abomination, and priests being the only ones who could read the bible in those time often created their own version in order to coincide with their own beliefs.  Christ doesn't want all you self proclaimed witches to be put to death or chastised, but as long as you indulge in magic, you lose sight of TRUE power which is spiritual and governed by Christ.

[Rastus]

Am I the only one that sees it?

The bible was re-written to stomp out competition.  The competition was mostly the ancient Celts and Pagans.  2 Commandments are specifically written to stomp out Pagan beliefs.  Interesting since the original Authors were Jewish.  Heck the original bible said "Everlasting Reincarnation" and was re-written to "everlasting life" by the emporer Constatine's wife because heaven has no value if you re-incarnate.  And heaven is the reward for the "faithful", no reward and what's the point?  And You can't have a Heaven if there's no Hell, I mean where's the incentive?

[Logic]

The bible is very metaphoric, in which case some people still take it very literally. Regardless, a lot of what is in there is open for interpretation as there is not exactly a clear mesesage in every passage, making it possible for anyone, more specifically christians to develop a seperate understanding of what the book actually means.

[aryanknight666]

Although it would be nice for the christian occult dabblers if it all really was added in during translation and all the stuff affirming occult practices was left out, but the original hewbrew texts of the old testament still say to stone sorcers, witches, and those who practice divination to death, and all the rest of that stuff. The original greek gospel still speaks of jesus and his disciples casting out spirits of mediumship, fortune telling, sooth saying, divinatoin etc.
And I think saying "Don't take it literally" is seriously avoiding reality. How can you not take "and all those who practice magick shalt be outside the walls of christ, and cast into the lake of fire" literally? please! wake up.
Risu no Kairo is correct, he is just displaying an extremely small sample of the inconsistencies and contradictions in the bible. The rulings and teachings of the bible are very anti-life, and of course you are meant to literally do what it literally says to do, Naiaid, according to matthew the way you tell if someone is a christian is if they are immune to all poisons, speak in tongues and take up serpents. I think it would have been made a little bit clearer if the bible wasn't meant to be taken literally on what it says people can and cannot do, and what it says God wants people to do. From the christian stand-point the bible is the word of God so read it. You could never be sure if you were "intepreting it properly with the help of God" now, could you? the only thing you're meant to be certain of is that the bible is the literal word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit.
If there are things you want to do like oh, say occult dabbling, don't be like a wiccan and take out of your religion what you don't like, perhaps you should consider finding a religion more compatable with your life, what you want to do and your individuality?

[aryanknight666]

quote: Am I the only one that sees it?

The bible was re-written to stomp out competition. The competition was mostly the ancient Celts and Pagans. 2 Commandments are specifically written to stomp out Pagan beliefs. Interesting since the original Authors were Jewish. Heck the original bible said "Everlasting Reincarnation" and was re-written to "everlasting life" by the emporer Constatine's wife because heaven has no value if you re-incarnate. And heaven is the reward for the "faithful", no reward and what's the point? And You can't have a Heaven if there's no Hell, I mean where's the incentive?

Rastus, do you have any sources for the so-called "ever lasting reincarnation"? We actually do not know what was changed, added in and taken out by constantine.
"The competition was mostly the ancient Celts and Pagans."
A pagan is simply someone who worships a god that is not of christianity, judaism or islam. A pagan is not someone who is "close to nature" and "worships nature". There were plenty of Pagans in the middle east at the time, every non-jew, for that matter. We of course know very little about the Celts to have any proper insight into their religion, but it is almost certain that magick and witchraft did not make up a large portion of their religion at all, and if they  practised magick and witchcraft at all it would have been a fringe art where you have one witch or wizard per village (and obviously they would not have used the victorian era methods of ritual magick in wicca). It was long, long after the bible was written that the christians came to Europe. And I'd probably say that the commandmants are specifically written to be commandments for christians and jews.

[Risu no Kairu]

Risu no Kairu.

Not Risu no Kairo.

[James S]

Actually the word "Pagan" can most literally be translated as "country folk".

In the time that Emperor Constantine introduced christianity, or more accurately, Roman Catholocism (sp?) to the world (as his version of christianity which is now main stream appears to be quite different from the teachings of Jesus himself), it was the "simple" country folk that retained the ways of woshipping both God and Goddess.

As Rastus said, Constantine was set on literally stomping out the competition, but in order to do so, and bring in this new religion, he had to make quite a few changes, blend in some existing "pagan" practices, and compile a holy book that would be written in such a way as to ensure loyalty among its followers.

What Constantine saw as the main opponents to Christianity were the followers of the Goddess, as this concept directly opposed his masculine christian God. As a result millions of women were slaughtered, accused of being witches, as they were seen as being the ones directly responsible for preaching the "old" religions.

The AlphaOmega,
I find what you are saying to be exactly the kind of "controlled" thinking that Constantine had in mind - intolerance of anything that is outside of Bible doctrine.

Tell me, what is the difference between a spell and a prayer?
What is the diffeerence between an observance such as Communion or any of the sacrements and enchantments?
You speak out against witches so can I assume you have enough knowledge and experience in the practices of wisecraft to be able to know what it is you're talking about here. Or do you say all this because some book or some minister told you this is how you should think, and not actually gain any real first hand experience?

And for the record I AM a witch, and for 16 years of my life WAS a christian.

I've lived and studied christianity long enough that I know all the arguments that have been used against "pagan" and other secular practices, as well as all the arguments agains other christian sect such as the Seventh Day Adventists, The JW's, etc.

- James.

[aryanknight666]

James,
The worship of God and Goddess is a middle eastern tradition, most prominetly found in mesopatomia. The reason why so many women were slaughtered had nothing to do with goddess worship, or wicca. They were slaughtered because many of the preists considered their home-making, decorating, nesting and medicines to be thoroughly of the devil. It should also note that the inquisition happened in the 1400's.
Pagan refers to people who worship god(s) other then those of christianity,judaism and islam, regardless of what pagan literally means.

[James S]

It's not just a middle eastern tradition. Worship of both God Goddess can be found in ancient Celtic traditions, as well as Aztec, African, Northern european, and many other ancient cultures. It seems that except for Christianity, and Islam all of the old religions recognised a balance between the masculine and feminine. In fact if anything, the feminine was more highly regarded as the woman was recognised as the "giver of life".

There were also crusades against witches around 1200ad instigated by Alexander IV, and also records of being killed as witches back as early as around 770. But you're right in that the 1400's was without a doubt the worst time.

Regards,
James.

[Naiad780]

"Naiaid, according to matthew the way you tell if someone is a christian is if they are immune to all poisons, speak in tongues and take up serpents."

Eh?  That's what I'm getting at.  Can any Christian fit that bill?  Doubtful.  If so, does that mean they aren't Christian?  A modern-day Christian must look at that passage and say either:
a) I need to interpret that literally and take up snake handling and start getting immune to poisons and figure out how to speak in tongues
or
b) Well, that passage requires some interpretation, doesn't it?

I think the important part is to examine your motivation for caring so much what other people believe.  Unless you are a pastor or fervent Christian hoping to convert the uneducated masses, such things generally belie ego issues and insecurities.

And I hope you're using "you" in a general sense, as I am neither Christian, Wiccan, or any religion, for that matter.

[Nay]

I don't have a argument but wanted to say that a couple weeks ago I was meditating about a certain problem.  After several minutes, all of a sudden I had a vision of me being turned in by a loved one and being burned at the stake..[:O]  Mind you I have never thought that one of my incarnations was a witch, but now I wonder..[]

It is amazing when I get these "flashes" they happen in mere seconds but I get so much information in those few seconds...very weird.

Nay

[Nay]

quote:I have had the vision of being hung for being a witch.

I was surprised when it happened to me.  I thought..no way, I saw and felt that wrong, but eh..I didn't, I was cooked well done.[B)] plus, unfortunatly it felt...right.

Did you feel strange when you saw your vision?

Nay

[aryanknight666]

Do you consider yourself to be a witch, nay?

[Nay]

quote:Originally posted by aryanknight666

Do you consider yourself to be a witch, nay?

No not really, I use to study it years..and I mean YEARS ago..but it didn't seem to be my nitch.  Seems I had other things that worked better for me.  If I was to go with my vision, I'd say it was my past life speaking to me in my youth and I was just trying to figure it out by reading and researching something that perked my interest at the time.

I think if my mind was into it, I could be quite the witch though..[]  I did own a black cat at one time, does that count?

Nay []

[Palehorse]

quote:Originally posted by Rastus

Am I the only one that sees it?

The bible was re-written to stomp out competition.  The competition was mostly the ancient Celts and Pagans.  2 Commandments are specifically written to stomp out Pagan beliefs.  Interesting since the original Authors were Jewish.  Heck the original bible said "Everlasting Reincarnation" and was re-written to "everlasting life" by the emporer Constatine's wife because heaven has no value if you re-incarnate.  And heaven is the reward for the "faithful", no reward and what's the point?  And You can't have a Heaven if there's no Hell, I mean where's the incentive?

What's your source for these assertions?

In any case, I myself am a Christian who believes in Heaven, but not Hell.  A relationship with truth and the divine is its own incentive, regardless of the form it takes.

As for the original post, there is a lot in the Old Testament that we don't follow anymore; particularly stoning and various forms of animal sacrifice.  I think it's important to remember the goal of the OT and what YHWH was doing -- He was taking a small group of people and introducing them to ethical monotheism, a concept that was completely radical and unprecedented at the time.  In order for this to succeed, there had to be a complete break from any vestige or appearance of the old Pagan practices.  The results were occasionally harsh, but I believe it was the only alternative to utter failure.  As it was, the ancient Israelites lapsed back into Pagan practices numerous times in their history; this is documented all throughout the OT.

Also, if you look at some of the things God was trying to prevent, I think they make sense.  As many here would probably point out, consulting with spirits is potentially risky business, perhaps especially if you're an ancient person who is probably illiterate and uneducated, with very little solid knowledge of science.  Under those circumstances, I'm sure spiritual con-artists flourished even moreso than they do today.  Then there's the fact that if you really do manage to contact a spirit, you really have no idea what you're getting or what their intentions might be.  It'd be a bit like facing a dire situation in your life, and seeking advice from a random anonymous person on the internet, without knowing anything about their credentials.

That said, I think things are a bit different now than they were 5000+ years ago when these things were written.  As a Christian, I'm perfectly okay with things discussed here like astral projection and lucid dreaming, but on the grounds that I associate them with natural abilities inherent in human nature, and not with any sort of Pagan religious practice.

And, lest we forget, there are also numerous biblical passages which describe experiences of astral projection, mystical visions, prophecy, prophetic dreams, and the like.

[aryanknight666]

The reason why spirit mediumship and contacting the dead was not condoned is because according to "god" you cannot contact the dead and the only people you will be contacting are demons.

quote:but on the grounds that I associate them with natural abilities inherent in human nature, and not with any sort of Pagan religious practice.

It amazes me that as a christian you have not heard of inherent sin.

[Palehorse]

quote:Originally posted by aryanknight666

The reason why spirit mediumship and contacting the dead was not condoned is because according to "god" you cannot contact the dead and the only people you will be contacting are demons.

Chapter and verse?

Actually, in 1 Sam. 28, King Saul consults with the Witch of Endor, and asks her to raise the spirit of Samuel.  When ol' Sam makes his appearance, he does appear rather ticked about having been disturbed from his eternal rest, but the text gives no indication that it was anyone other than him.

quote:It amazes me that as a christian you have not heard of inherent sin.

Oh, I have.  However, I also know that this doctrine did not come into being until several centuries after the life of Christ.

Even if the doctrine was true though, I fail to see why astral projection would be seen as inherently sinful.  If anything, the more prevalent historically Christian tradition (seemingly carried over from the Gnostics, oddly enough) is to see the *body* and its appetites as sinful, and long to leave it and its vices behind, so as to be reunited with God.

Not that I believe that either, though.  To me, the body is just a vehicle; a temporary gift (and occasionally a curse, heh) we can use to have experiences and learn lessons that wouldn't be possible otherwise.

[Rastus]

It's an old old trick to quote scriptures to justify your actions.  I see no problem with Christians practicing metaphysics, since the bible says it's normal and your right.  It also says to burn witches, and actually says anything you want if you have a few hours an a search engine...

Everyone has their favorite Passages:

CO2 3:6  Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

CO1 12:1  Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

CO1 12:4  Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

CO1 12:5  And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

CO1 12:6  And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

CO1 12:7  But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

CO1 12:8  For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

CO1 12:9  To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

CO1 12:10  To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

CO1 12:11  But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

CO1 12:12  For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.