FITNA the Movie (Finally people seem to be waking up)

[Mustardseed]

I just saw the movie FITNA by the dutch politician Geert Wilders. Very well done but very short . It shows the main issue to face, THE KORAN, this is the "fountain" as he says this is where it is all commanded. Now take a look and tell me what you thinbk

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5U6vSvITaM&feature=related
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZUTloCxQ_Q&feature=related

[abu-usaama]

Get over it dude. Muslims have always been peaceful. Rash and floundery statements of a couple doesnt change the fact that:

1)Muslims have always been more tolerant, and more civilized, in warfare and elsewhere, than christians.

2) When the crusaders killed little Muslim, Jewish, and christian babies in Jerusalem in the name of God, the Muslims didnt go killing little christian babies in europe. Not to mention their justification for their crusades being from the old testament as well as the new testament (Jesus telling his disciples to sell their cloaks for swords)

3) When christians tortured people during the inquisition(Muslims and Jews), Muslims had nothign to do with that.

4) When Jews were being persecuted in Christian europe for hundreds of years, they were protected and treated with dignity in the Islamic world.

5) And of course now, when the Christian dominated 'United States' invades two nations, justifying their invasions with lies and deceits, killing thousands of military and civilian, where is the Muslims fault in that?

[SnakeDoctor]

5) And of course now, when the Christian dominated 'United States' invades two nations, justifying their invasions with lies and deceits, killing thousands of military and civilian, where is the Muslims fault in that?

....

I'm sure September 11, 2001 and the fact Saddam used WMDs on his own people, had nothing to do with the fact that we invaded "2 countries"....

but...wheres this second country??? we INVADED Iraq, thats one. im still missing this other country you say we invaded.

we didn't invade Afghanistan...the terrorist faction that was responsible for 9/11 was there. we went there with Afghanistan's cooperation, thats not an invasion my friend.

[abu-usaama]

....

I'm sure September 11, 2001 and the fact Saddam used WMDs on his own people, had nothing to do with the fact that we invaded "2 countries"....

but...wheres this second country??? we INVADED Iraq, thats one. im still missing this other country you say we invaded.

we didn't invade Afghanistan...the terrorist faction that was responsible for 9/11 was there. we went there with Afghanistan's cooperation, thats not an invasion my friend.

1) Can you explain to me the connection between September 11,2001 and Iraq?

2) Saddam Hussein was not a Muslim. He was a baathist who ruled by secular law, whom every "fundamentalist Muslim" despised.

3) Apparently you have a very lax definition of what a WMD is. http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/06/iraq.wmd.report/

Even if we were to argue that Saddam Hussein used 'WMD's on his own people, the Muslims didnt need big super-hero U.S.A. to come in and make things worse.

4) Yes, you invaded Afghanistan. Maybe your memory isnt that great, but the reality is you had no cooperation from Afghanistan for the invasion. The Taliban, whom had control over the vast majority of Afghanistan had no pre-knowledge of the 9/11 attacks by al-qaeda, and demanded that America bring forth evidence that bin laden was behind the attacks, in which they would subsequently try Bin Laden in Islamic courts. America ignored this noble behavior and invaded like a bunch of whining bullies.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/09/11/world/main310852.shtml


Oh yeh, and thanks for admitting that you, along with your government invaded these countries, for YOU are just as guilty for these crimes.

Thanks,

Abu-Usaama

[dotster]

Oh yeh, and thanks for admitting that you, along with your government invaded these countries, for YOU are just as guilty for these crimes.

I hope you are not accusing all Americans of being guilty of these "crimes". Not all Americans think the same, and not all of us wanted the same things to happen. There are quite a few Americans who believe that the only "terrorists" involved in events on 9/11 were in fact Americans. I know what it's like in the middle-east, i've been there and seen for myself, and I'm not proud at all of what has happened. I am certainly not proud that some of the American troops have decided to play target practice on innocent kids just walking down the street, and please don't say "oh that's just lies that people make up to make americans look bad". I can guarantee that it is no lie. I have seen it, with my own eyes, in person, and it's disgusting. I'm 100 percent born and raised American, but i'm also 100 percent disgusted at some of the things our government does, and let's happen.

[Mustardseed]

Get over it dude. Muslims have always been peaceful. Rash and floundery statements of a couple doesnt change the fact that:

1)Muslims have always been more tolerant, and more civilized, in warfare and elsewhere, than christians.

2) When the crusaders killed little Muslim, Jewish, and christian babies in Jerusalem in the name of God, the Muslims didnt go killing little christian babies in europe. Not to mention their justification for their crusades being from the old testament as well as the new testament (Jesus telling his disciples to sell their cloaks for swords)

3) When christians tortured people during the inquisition(Muslims and Jews), Muslims had nothign to do with that.

4) When Jews were being persecuted in Christian europe for hundreds of years, they were protected and treated with dignity in the Islamic world.

5) And of course now, when the Christian dominated 'United States' invades two nations, justifying their invasions with lies and deceits, killing thousands of military and civilian, where is the Muslims fault in that?

LOL what can I say, ........you live in a dreamworld Neo. Muslims peacefull.......in your dreams...burning embassies and killing demonstrating, threatening violence and inihilation, to protest being called Violent.

Get a grip ...........

[abu-usaama]

LOL what can I say, ........you live in a dreamworld Neo. Muslims peacefull.......in your dreams...burning embassies and killing demonstrating, threatening violence and inihilation, to protest being called Violent.

Get a grip ...........

you get a grip, you brainwashed media worshipping, pagan.

[Mustardseed]

you get a grip, you brainwashed media worshipping, pagan.

Oh my the oh so peaceful Muslim are on a rampage, it starts with name calling, personal abuse of anyone who disagrees and then soon after comes the aggression...........don't you see that you are confirming my opinion and absolutely contradicting yourself.......I guess not.

For you I will always be just that a brainwashed media worshiping pagan an infidel and Islam knows what to do with such people  . The Koran says it clear for all to understand:

Sura 2:187-189 "And kill them wherever ye shall find them, and eject them from whatever place they have ejected you; for civil discord is worse than carnage: yet attack them not at the sacred Mosque, unless they attack you therein; but if they attack you, slay them. Such the reward of the infidels...Fight therefore against them until there be no more civil discord, and the only worship be that of God: but if they desist, then let there be no hostility, save against the wicked."

2:190-292 "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for Allah does not love transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out: For tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; But fight them not at the sacred Mosque unless they first fight you there; But if they fight you, Slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith."

2:193 "And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and let there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression."

2:216 "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not. 217 They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offense); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be Companions of the Fire and will abide therein."

2:244 "Then fight in the cause of God, and know that God heareth and knoweth all things. 245 Who is he that will loan to God a beautiful loan, which God will double unto his credit and multiply many times? It is God that giveth (you) want or plenty, and to Him shall be your return."

So what are you going to say Osama ...........that I have misunderstood the meaning of these Suras.....kill does not mean kill it is translated wrong it really means cuddle......what is your explanation.

I know what you will say. Nothing. You will make a mental note that here is someone who cannot be fooled with all your softsoap, and I personally think you will stop talking to me and continue your peace propaganda baloney and hope I will just go away. Dont you see it, you are exposed for what you are in your heart.

[Venus_Goddess_of_Love]

hello, I don't want to get into current politics, but just want to say that I know for sure muslims invaded most African countries, converting people to islam by force.  Many ancient churches were burnt down and several people killed by this army in Ethiopia, which is the only country the area that hasn't been entirely converted to islam.  The muslim army marched through the country, coverting all of Somalia, some parts of Ethiopia, Sudan etc etc.

Look up your history, you will find it there.  This is fact.

[AmbientSound]

No culture or religion is better than any other. All have their black marks of atrocity in history, and all have a piece of wisdom to share, so this argument is moot.

[abu-usaama]

Oh my the oh so peaceful Muslim are on a rampage, it starts with name calling, personal abuse of anyone who disagrees and then soon after comes the aggression...........don't you see that you are confirming my opinion and absolutely contradicting yourself.......I guess not.

For you I will always be just that a brainwashed media worshiping pagan an infidel and Islam knows what to do with such people  . The Koran says it clear for all to understand:

Sura 2:187-189 "And kill them wherever ye shall find them, and eject them from whatever place they have ejected you; for civil discord is worse than carnage: yet attack them not at the sacred Mosque, unless they attack you therein; but if they attack you, slay them. Such the reward of the infidels...Fight therefore against them until there be no more civil discord, and the only worship be that of God: but if they desist, then let there be no hostility, save against the wicked."

2:190-292 "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for Allah does not love transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out: For tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; But fight them not at the sacred Mosque unless they first fight you there; But if they fight you, Slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith."

2:193 "And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and let there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression."

2:216 "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not. 217 They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offense); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be Companions of the Fire and will abide therein."

2:244 "Then fight in the cause of God, and know that God heareth and knoweth all things. 245 Who is he that will loan to God a beautiful loan, which God will double unto his credit and multiply many times? It is God that giveth (you) want or plenty, and to Him shall be your return."

So what are you going to say Osama ...........that I have misunderstood the meaning of these Suras.....kill does not mean kill it is translated wrong it really means cuddle......what is your explanation.

I know what you will say. Nothing. You will make a mental note that here is someone who cannot be fooled with all your softsoap, and I personally think you will stop talking to me and continue your peace propaganda baloney and hope I will just go away. Dont you see it, you are exposed for what you are in your heart.

the first verses you quoted, are actually the second verses you quoted, except slyly taking out the part:


"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors." [2:190]

whcih would clarify that the "killing" is done to those who are fighting.

Lets compare these verses to the Old Testament which you Christians believe in :

7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho. [a]

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

[Numbers 3:17-17]

36He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."
[Luke 22:36-36]

I've never denied here that Muslims have killed. EVeryone has. And Ive never denied that jihaad is part of Islam. The point is.

Muslims

are

more

civilized

than

you.

k,

have a good day.

-Abu-Usaama

[abu-usaama]

hello, I don't want to get into current politics, but just want to say that I know for sure muslims invaded most African countries, converting people to islam by force.  Many ancient churches were burnt down and several people killed by this army in Ethiopia, which is the only country the area that hasn't been entirely converted to islam.  The muslim army marched through the country, coverting all of Somalia, some parts of Ethiopia, Sudan etc etc.

Look up your history, you will find it there.  This is fact.

Actually the king of ethiopia converted to Islam during the time of the Prophet sws.

[abu-usaama]

Oh my the oh so peaceful Muslim are on a rampage, it starts with name calling, personal abuse of anyone who disagrees and then soon after comes the aggression...........don't you see that you are confirming my opinion and absolutely contradicting yourself.......I guess not.

Oh yeah. Name-calling doesnt mean murder/killing. Only a barbaric western individual who cant control himself would kill someone because he doesnt like them.

K thnx,

Abu-Usaama

[AmbientSound]

"aww, it's all just a bunch o' hooey."

-A

[Mustardseed]

Muslims are more civilized than you.

have a good day.

-Abu-Usaama

LOL i mean .....thats fantastic....you crack me up Osama. Here is the definition of Civilized

civ·i·lized (sv-lzd)
adj.
1. Having a highly developed society and culture.
2. Showing evidence of moral and intellectual advancement; humane, ethical, and reasonable
3. Marked by refinement in taste and manners; cultured; polished.

1 General Musharaf of pakistan in the following article says

"Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race," he told the delegates.


President Musharraf then made a comparison of the economic growth in Islamic countries with some developed countries.

While the collective Gross National Product of the all Muslim countries stands at $1,200bn, that of Germany alone is $2,500bn and that of Japan $5,500bn.

the entire article is here 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1824455.stm

As far as having a civilized culture read the following article

Ethics and Corruption in Muslim Countries: Fact versus Fiction?
the link is here

http://makkah.wordpress.com/2006/11/28/ethics-and-corruption-in-muslim-countries-fact-versus-fiction/

2 and 3. As far as "Showing evidence of moral and intellectual advancement; humane, ethical, and reasonable" give me a break you are so far behind and so barbaric that it defies common sense. Do I really have to include links to comment on this absurd claim

lets see ....ummmm how about this one 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_kyNIevsIs

oops was that YOU I saw there Osama

As far as being refined and cultured..........hahahaha I mean ....what planet are mailing from. The FACT remain that the Muslim world is barbaric uncivilized with laws and practices that strive horribly against human right. But  I would guess you have never LIVED in a Muslim country.......all you have is the word of your Imam and the history books, the great dreams of Islam during its heyday the Islamic golden age.

Today in this world the Muslim world is in turmoil and stinks to the high heaven of corruption barbary ignorance illiteracy and fanaticism, and the fact that you cant see this does not exactly make you seem too intelligent either   

Besides that just drop your comments of the Bible, you cannot defend your own barbaric religion by attacking the Old testament, we are not talking about the Jews we are talking about YOU and Islam.

k, Osama ?

You have a good day too my little friend.

[Venus_Goddess_of_Love]

Actually the king of ethiopia converted to Islam during the time of the Prophet sws.

Which one?  Names and dates please.  Meantime, enjoy this reading from Wikipedia

When Ahmad ibn Ibrihim al-Ghazi became Sultan of Adal he united the Arab tribes of Somalia, as well as the Oromo and the Afar. Ahmad initiated a jihad against Dawit II, Emperor of Ethiopia in 1527. He was supported in his cause by several Falashas and Orthodox Ethiopians who opposed Dawit II's rule.


Course of the war
In 1529 the forces under Imam Ahmad, defeated a larger Ethiopian army at the Battle of Shimbra Kure. This victory came at heavy cost, but it solidified the Muslim morale, providing proof that they could stand up to the large Ethiopian army.

The victories that gave the followers of Imam Ahmad the upper hand came in 1531. The first was at Antukyah, where canon-fire at the start of the battle panicked the Ethiopian soldiers. The second was on 28 October at Amba Sel, when troops under the Imam not only defeated but dispersed the Ethiopian army and captured items of the Imperial regalia. These victories allowed the Muslims to enter the Ethiopian highlands, where they began to sack and burn numerous churches, including Atronsa Maryam where the remains of several Emperors had been interred.[1]

The country was looted by the Ahmad's forces, who destroyed several Christian monuments and oppressed the non-Muslim Amhara and Tigray.

Dawit II died in 1540 and his heir was captured by the Arabs; the Empress was unable to react as she was besieged in the capital. In 1543 the Ethiopian guerrillas were able to defeat the Muslims with the help of the Portuguese navy, which brought 400 musketeers and blocked supplies from the Ottoman Empire from reaching Adal. In 1543 Ahmad died in the Battle of Wayna Daga.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian-Adal_War
Also look up: http://www.ethiopiantreasures.toucansurf.com/pages/rel-war.htm

[AmbientSound]

"Hey! I refuse to play your Chinese food MIND GAMES!"

[abu-usaama]

LOL i mean .....thats fantastic....you crack me up Osama. Here is the definition of Civilized

civ·i·lized (sv-lzd)
adj.
1. Having a highly developed society and culture.
2. Showing evidence of moral and intellectual advancement; humane, ethical, and reasonable
3. Marked by refinement in taste and manners; cultured; polished.

1 General Musharaf of pakistan in the following article says

"Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race," he told the delegates.


Besides that just drop your comments of the Bible, you cannot defend your own barbaric religion by attacking the Old testament, we are not talking about the Jews we are talking about YOU and Islam.

k, Osama ?

You have a good day too my little friend.

1) the Muslims invented algebra and are the pioneers of Medicine, the origin of the belief in heliocentricity as well as the earth's spherical shape.

In the 11th century, Muslim astronomers began questioning the Ptolemaic system, beginning with Ibn al-Haytham, and they were the first to conduct elaborate experiments related to astronomical phenomena, beginning with Abū al-Rayhān al-Bīrūnī's introduction of the experimental method into astronomy.[83] Many of them made changes and corrections to the Ptolemaic model and proposed alternative non- Ptolemaic models within a geocentric framework. In particular, the corrections and critiques of al-Battani, Ibn al-Haytham, and Averroes, and the non-Ptolemaic models of the Maragha astronomers, Nasir al-Din al-Tusi (Tusi-couple), Mo'ayyeduddin Urdi (Urdi lemma), and Ibn al-Shatir, were later adapted into the heliocentric Copernican model,[84][85] and that Copernicus' arguments for the Earth's rotation were similar to those of al-Tusi and Ali al-Qushji.[86] Some have referred to the achievements of the Maragha school as a "Maragha Revolution", "Maragha School Revolution", or "Scientific Revolution before the Renaissance".[11]

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_science

The Muslims understand what it means to fear God and be conscious of Him. To worship Him and none else. To work for the Hereafter as opposed to this transitory life.

2. Muslim societies, even at their farthest away from Islam (like many societies in the Muslim world today) are still 100 times more humane than Western societies.

1. Serial Killing/torture killing is an inherently western phenomena, and rarely happens in the Muslim world.

2. Public acceptance of Fornication/illicit behavior, homosexuality,  adultery is inherently western phenomena, and rarely happens in the Muslim world.

3. Safety and security for women is scarce in any Western country at times of peace. A woman can barely go out at at night alone in America without fearing harassment. In Muslim societies a woman is safe and secure, and knows she wont be harassed/raped.

4. Atheism is an inherently western phenomena, and is rare in the Muslim world.

5. Sadistic crimes committed at all ages are inherently western phenomena and do not happen in the Muslim world.

Example: http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-72952193.html

WOODBRIDGE - A 10-year-old boy was accused Thursday of luring a 3- year-old boy from a library, beating him with a bat, sexually assaulting him, and dumping him in a ditch.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/06/infant.killed.ap/index.html?eref=rss_us

LAUDERHILL, Florida (AP) -- A 12-year-old boy beat a toddler to death with a baseball bat because she was crying while he was trying to watch TV, authorities said.

A society that produces children like this isnt "civilized" but deep in the woes of materialism and barbarity.

Another look into your "civilized" societies:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3286721.stm

"My friend enjoyed dying, death. I only waited horrified for the end after doing the deed. It took so terribly long "

Armin Meiwes

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/12/13/germany.cannibal/index.html

Neighbours said they found the story difficult to comprehend. One said: "It was sort of clear to us that he had a different perspective on life than we did but he was a normal person, to speak to him, to drink a glass of beer with him, just like you and me."


Another:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_headline=man-cooks-and-eats-girlfriend-&method=full&objectid=17963137&siteid=94762-name_page.html


A FORMER soldier cooked his girlfriend in their apartment above a voodoo shop, ate her, and then jumped to his death.

Her legs and feet were in pans. The rest of her body was in rubbish bags in the fridge at the apartment in New Orleans, Louisiana.


And Another:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/06/texas.slaying.ap/index.html?eref=rss_mostpopular

TYLER, Texas (AP) -- A man killed his girlfriend, then filleted and cooked parts of her body before calling police to tell them what he was doing, authorities said Sunday.

Christopher Lee McCuin, 25, called 911 on Saturday and told an emergency dispatcher he had killed Jana Shearer, 21, and was boiling her body parts at his mother's home, said Smith County Sheriff J.B. Smith.

When authorities arrived at the home, they found Shearer's mutilated body, one ear boiling in a pot of water on the stove and a fork sticking out of some human flesh sitting on a plate on the kitchen table.


Just a daily example of "civilized" westerners.

3. Islam is the religion which gives the most emphasis and importance to manners. Example:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O5yll9RpCM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ewltD6SAz0&feature=related

"Refined" American character(WARNING: VIDEOS FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVsD3p5cxAU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwVC3ZASmOM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66PJlGN6rzQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JX79B-bVdYM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSCs52dVJu0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLgA8CW6k5E


K thnx,

-Abu-Usaama

[Mustardseed]

OK lets just answer these claims one by one.

1) the Muslims invented algebra and are the pioneers of Medicine, the origin of the belief in heliocentricity as well as the earth's spherical shape.

In the 11th century, Muslim astronomers began questioning the Ptolemaic system, beginning with Ibn al-Haytham, and they were the first to conduct elaborate experiments related to astronomical phenomena, beginning with Abū al-Rayhān al-Bīrūnī's introduction of the experimental method into astronomysee: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_science

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject, whether Muslims are more civilized today. It an retiration of claims concerning the PAST. 

The Muslims understand what it means to fear God and be conscious of Him. To worship Him and none else. To work for the Hereafter as opposed to this transitory life.

This has nothing to do with being civilized as per the definition of the word.

2. Muslim societies, even at their farthest away from Islam (like many societies in the Muslim world today) are still 100 times more humane than Western societies.

1. Serial Killing/torture killing is an inherently western phenomena, and rarely happens in the Muslim world.

This is ludicrous. Here is a couple of very brief account of Muhammeds behaviour as confirmed in the Koran and the Hadith this is by no means the only examples. Aside from that there present day behaviour by various radical groups, beheadings suicide bombings etc. as well as public rape

http://english.pravda.ru/fun/2002/07/02/31654.html

http://www.answering-islam.org/Terrorism/torture.html

During the year 628 A.D., eight men from the clan of Uraynah, came to Medina.  They became Muslims.  While they were there they got sick.  Muhammad prescribed a medicine for them:  he told them to drink camel milk and camel urine.  After the men got better, they brutally murdered the shepherd of the camels, stole the camels, and tried to escape.  Muhammad sent an armed party of 20 men after them.  They were caught and brought back to Medina.  There, Muhammad pronounced their judgment:  their eyes were branded with hot irons, then plucked out, their hands and feet were cut off, and then, while still alive, they were thrown out on the hot desert to die.

Muhammad aggressively attacked several groups of people around him.  One of these groups were the Jews of Khaibar.  Muhammad believed God led him to attack Khaibar.  After Khaibar was conquered, the Jews were either enslaved, executed, or allowed to live there provided they gave the Muslims one half of all they produced.  One of Muhammad's most brutal acts involved a prisoner named Kinana.  Kinana was one of the leaders of Khaibar.  Muhammad wanted him to reveal where some buried treasure was hidden.  Kinana refused.  Muhammad had him tortured to the point of death, then had him beheaded.

2. Public acceptance of Fornication/illicit behavior, homosexuality,  adultery is inherently western phenomena, and rarely happens in the Muslim world.

3. Safety and security for women is scarce in any Western country at times of peace. A woman can barely go out at at night alone in America without fearing harassment. In Muslim societies a woman is safe and secure, and knows she wont be harassed/raped.

These claims are silly there are no statistics to back this up, it only shows that you are ignorant of life in the world in a broader sense. It also shows that you must absolutely be living in a Mideastern country and have been influenced by the propaganda of Islam. Rape is sanctioned in Islam,

Rape
Islamic criminal jurisprudence does not discriminate between genders in punishments for crimes.[citation needed] In case of sexual crimes such as zina (fornication), however, women may be found guilty more easily than men, because of the visible evidence of pregnancy; without a pregancy, four witnesses are required to file a zina case.[45] The difficulty of prosecuting rapists and the possibility of prosecution for women who allege rape has been of special interest to activists for Muslim women's rights.[46] In the past decades there have been several high profile cases of pregnant women prosecuted for zina who claim to have been raped.[47][48][49] [50]

The overwhelming majority of Muslim scholars believe that there is no punishment for a woman coerced into having sex.[51] According to a Sunni hadith, the punishment for committing rape is death, there is no sin on the victim, nor is there any worldly punishment ascribed to her.[52] However, the stringent requirements for proof of rape under some interpretations of Islamic law, combined with cultural attitudes regarding rape in some parts of the Muslim world, result in few rape cases being reported; even the cases brought forward typically result in minimal punishment for offenders or severe punishment for victims.[53] It can be difficult to seek punishment against rapists, because a zina case cannot be brought without four witnesses, even for rape cases.

4. Atheism is an inherently western phenomena, and is rare in the Muslim world.

Your assumption is that civilization can only be attained by faith in Allah. This is not the case, besides that there is capital punishment for being an atheist in some Muslim countries, and social rejection in others, ......do you think that atheists are speaking up a lot in such places. I should think not

5. Sadistic crimes committed at all ages are inherently western phenomena and do not happen in the Muslim world.


Then you use some examples of crimes in the west, but how can you do that. You say that the acts of certain terrorists is not a reflection of how Muslims live yet you say that the acts of a few wacked out insane people is a reflection of the west. Not professional. 


all in all it is evident that you have no clue of life in the west. I actually thought you were British at one point but if you were you would not have posted like you did but you would have known the silliness of your arguments.

[abu-usaama]

2. 1. there is a difference between capital punishment, and killing for the sake of sadism.

2. 3. Anyone can write whatever they want on wikipedia, their word is no better than mine. the punishment for rape is death. in fact, the Taliban (May Allah preserve them) established themselves in response to men raping women. They gained faimed and popularity initially through their establishing the hudood (Islamic penal code) on the rapists (by killing them.) I trust what Muslims relate to me because I know they are trustworthy people in comparison to most non-muslims.

2. 4. Yes, Faith in God is a condition for civilization. Faith in God is a natural instinct. In fact, new research states that faith in God is ingrained in our biological makeup. The very fact that in America , britain etc. faith in God is openly opposed and doubted is a sign of a certain hopeslessness and twistedness in these societies and  a subconscious worship of false idols that these societies set up to confuse people.

2.5. Actually, I'm American. I was born and raised in California to a Jewish mother  and palestinian father in a moderately secular environment. I was born in the "ideal" suburban community.

I know the barbarity and desperation of American society because Ive seen it first hand, and I know the purity and peaceful nature of Muslims because Ive seen it first hand.

[Mustardseed]

2. 1. there is a difference between capital punishment, and killing for the sake of sadism.

2. 3. Anyone can write whatever they want on wikipedia, their word is no better than mine. the punishment for rape is death. in fact, the Taliban (May Allah preserve them) established themselves in response to men raping women. They gained faimed and popularity initially through their establishing the hudood (Islamic penal code) on the rapists (by killing them.) I trust what Muslims relate to me because I know they are trustworthy people in comparison to most non-muslims.

2. 4. Yes, Faith in God is a condition for civilization. Faith in God is a natural instinct. In fact, new research states that faith in God is ingrained in our biological makeup. The very fact that in America , britain etc. faith in God is openly opposed and doubted is a sign of a certain hopeslessness and twistedness in these societies and  a subconscious worship of false idols that these societies set up to confuse people.

2.5. Actually, I'm American. I was born and raised in California to a Jewish mother  and palestinian father in a moderately secular environment. I was born in the "ideal" suburban community.

I know the barbarity and desperation of American society because Ive seen it first hand, and I know the purity and peaceful nature of Muslims because Ive seen it first hand.

So let me get this straight ....you have actually lived in a Muslim country?

[AmbientSound]

Okay, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment.

Consider the American system of capitalism. It is a widely accepted fact that the middle class is disappearing as the economy worsens. The middle class gets no assistance from the government. Those who are considered middle class struggle. They make too much to qualify for government assistance and too little to set any of their earnings aside. The government has a lot more control over the poor that it assists. The rich are the ones calling the shots, and there are fewer and fewer of them all the time, and those who remain are getting more and more power.

Consider the crippling effect that corporate America has had on our legal system. Why does our health system require expensive insurance from companies who may at any time choose not to pay for one's cancer treatments or vitally important operations? Why do we pay house insurance, car insurance, medical and dental insurance, put money away for retirement, federal and state income taxes, social security (which is failing miserably, by the way), soaring gas prices, electric, water, and oil? And on top of that, people pay for cable TV, internet, phones, and other services, IF they can even afford them.

Is it not obvious that our capitalist system benefits from people who pile on their responsibilities to someone else? This is what creates jobs, after all- supply and demand.

After 9/11, I was sickened by how quickly corporations were making money off of peoples' patriotism fad. Our country, said to be civilized by some, is without morals, and what "words of wisdom" are spoken have only face value, because those who speak them really have selfish intentions of gaining positions of power. Their philosophy is that the masses are cattle to be herded and manipulated. I draw this conclusion from my own personal observations of daily life here.

The greenhouse gas crisis is going to be VERY profitable for those oil tycoons. They have the money to buy out every solar field, wind farm, and water turbine in the country, if they wanted to, and they will charge a lot of money for their services. This will give them great leverage in the legislative decisions made in Washington DC.

So what does all this mean? It means capitalism is slavery, which is uncivilized. I would rather live in a cave and do my own hunting, farming, and gathering. Of course, doing that in this country is illegal, as all buildings and shelters legally require electricity and running water.

So while I do not disagree that there are problems and issues in the Islamic world, I will never call America a civilized country.

[AmbientSound]

Wow, that was great! I guess anger management really does work!

[Mustardseed]

Ambient Sound
The very fact that you know all this, that you can express it openly, without fear of repercussions makes you part of a civilized society. Like it or not. In Muslim countries there is very little free expression, sharia law, no rights for women who are owned by their husbands, and corruption and all manner of uncivilized things going on. Cutting off hands of a thief, punishing the girl who has been raped rather than the rapist, honor killings, suicide jihadist warriors, kids being told that they get to heaven if they kill Jews and on and on.

Now I only object to the fact that this guy who claims to be American call Muslim countries more civilized than the west. It is absurd. I lived most my adult life some odd 30 years in Muslim countries, I lived in Turkey Iran Afghanistan and Pakistan and I can assure you this is NOT the case.

I would suggest to Osama or whatever that he try to go live in one, or better move to one. He will be dispised for being an American and could get in real big trouble. Anyway he is a young man who loves to do these stunts loves to make these outrageous claims and he really has no idea. Besides that I very much doubt that he is telling the truth. Noone living in America would believe that American or western women cannot go out at night without fear of being right. This is a myth as you well know, yet one that is being told over and over in the mideast. They believe we have sexual relation with animals on a major scale, rape and kill women at will, and generally cook and eat our friends and neighbours. A typical line from clergy in the mideast, watch youtube.YOU know that this is silly.

I tried to define Civilized, and whether you believe that the Western civilization leaves much to be desired it a heck of a lot better than the Mideast..........believe me. I know

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Wrhivp7eQ

[AmbientSound]

You make valid points, Mustardseed. Freedom of speech is one thing I cherish. I think it is uncivilized of our government to threaten our freedoms with stupid laws, like what Bush has done. However, I think it is civilized to defend freedom.

I know the examples of which you speak, and Iran and Afghanistan are most guilty of these things. Still, it would be foolish of me to say that I know anything about Islamic culture, since I lack experience living amongst Muslims. Therefore, I must ask Osama a few questions:

How does the nation of Islam define love?

How does the nation of Islam define freedom, and how does it regard freedom? Is it important? Why or why not?

What are the effects of fear-based reactions/decisions versus love-based reactions/decisions? How do these emotions affect people?

Why does the Nation of Islam believe homosexuality is wrong? Could there, perhaps, be a rational explanation for this, such as the prevention of spreading STDs, rather than homosexuality being an abomination? My best friends are bisexual and they are more honorable than most.

Why aren't women, the other half of humanity, treated as equals? Do you think any free-thinking woman would ever convert herself to Islam?





Mustardseed is right about women in America. They are not afraid to go out alone at night. He is also right about women in Islam. I saw live footage of the day when America liberated Afghanistan from Taliban rule. The women were so ecstatic they looked like teens at a rock concert.

One other thing I would like to say to Usaama-

All of the examples of American atrocities can be found in any culture around the world. What do you believe makes Western societies worse than other cultures?

It is a constant battle to retain one's freedom. Once you are free from having to battle others, like enemies on a conquest, you are free to battle yourself. The battle that counts most is the one that is fought within.

I rather disagree with organized religion in general. I think it causes more problems than it solves. There are too many mistakes with translations, inaccurate historical references, books that have been taken out/put in by unscrupulous tyrants, etc. along with people who interpret the texts literally and out of their historical contexts. Let's not forget that there are a few versions of the Quaran as there are with the Bible. Too many wars have been fought over religion, even between different sects of the same religion. It is ridiculous and that is why no Muslim will ever see me convert to Islam, nor will Christianity see me a Christian, nor Judaism see me as a Jew. I will not even join Hindu or Buddhism.

I follow my heart and I learn from all paths, but I forge my own.