Phasing or APing?

[Xanth]

And I think describing the various OBE states as "experiences of an inner reality at varying degrees" is a good way to put it but using the mathematical "=" sign is going too far. They are NOT 'equal'.

It entirely depends upon the context in which you're looking at that equality.  In the context of my post, they're all very equal... they're all experiences within a reality that isn't this physical reality.

In your post, you're looking at it from the context of "how consciously aware you are".  In which, I would agree that they're not the same.

It's all context and perception.

[Summerlander]

What is "naked awareness"?

What I mean by naked awareness is a floating point of consciousness devoid of any illusory body.

Regular dream ==> Lucid Dream ==> AP

What is AP, anyway? Can't AP be a WILD whereby you usually enter a burlesque version of the physical world? I personally don't see any difference apart from how focused you are in the realm of thoughts and the way in which you enter the Phase. I've had vivid non-lucid dreams that were so highly defined as to excel in quality compared to certain lucid dreams...

[Rudolph]

What is AP, anyway? Can't AP be a WILD

No. AP is AP and WILD is WILD.

To me, AP is Full Waking Consciousness moving to Full conscious, "feel myself real-time separating" from the physical and now standing outside the physical but with full awareness. Now... I have a LOT more experience with that than with WILD but I have done some experimenting with various projection techniques and I think I have done the WILD thing a couple times but I need more experience to say much about it with a high degree of confidence.

I've had vivid non-lucid dreams that were so highly defined as to excel in quality compared to certain lucid dreams...

I know, me too. Quite the dilemma.... I had a clean separation in my thoughts about those ultra-vivid, crystal clear dreams compared to regular and even lucid dreams -- *before* I started doing these other projection methods. This is a real challenge trying to develop a meaningful vocabulary for all this. Especially since I never liked the "focus" level scheme. That seems a bit too clinical to me.

[Xanth]

No. AP is AP and WILD is WILD.

To me, AP is Full Waking Consciousness moving to Full conscious, "feel myself real-time separating" from the physical and now standing outside the physical but with full awareness. Now... I have a LOT more experience with that than with WILD but I have done some experimenting with various projection techniques and I think I have done the WILD thing a couple times but I need more experience to say much about it with a high degree of confidence.

I know, me too. Quite the dilemma.... I had a clean separation in my thoughts about those ultra-vivid, crystal clear dreams compared to regular and even lucid dreams -- *before* I started doing these other projection methods. This is a real challenge trying to develop a meaningful vocabulary for all this. Especially since I never liked the "focus" level scheme. That seems a bit too clinical to me.

You're comparing the end result vs how you get there. 

I see "Astral Projection" as the end result... and I view a WILD as describing how you get there.

In essence there are only two "ways" to get there.  You either shift your consciousness smoothly to the non-physical with no break in awareness... or you shift your consciousness to the non-physical with a break in awareness. 

[Rudolph]

You're comparing the end result vs how you get there.

No, I'm not. I am using inclusive terms that contain both.

I see "Astral Projection" as the end result... and I view a WILD as describing how you get there.

I think that may be a confused mix. "Astral Projection" is an implied type of projection while actually arriving in "The astral" is the end result. AP... "P" is the how and "A" is the destination.
And WILD is not just 'how' ... the W_I_ is how you get there, the destination is in the _L_D state.

The "A" in AP and the "LD" in WILD are two different destinations in my book. I know the lines are blurred at the edges but this attempt to glom it all together and say its all the same just muddies the waters, imho, and is not constructive in the end.

[Pauli2]

Astral Projection = Out of body experience = Dreaming = Lucid Dreams = Phasing = Whatever name you might have for it

They're all the same thing that describe activities that don't take place in this physical reality.

Not all agree with that.

For example Buhlman, Waggoner & Peterson thinks different, see the thread LDs are not OBEs

I also think it's a little deceptive to not mention the objections from several of the great authors. It's kind of a "Frank behavior". Frank assigned statements to Monroe, statements which I never have recognized Monroe with.

It's deceptive.

[Xanth]

Not all agree with that.

For example Buhlman, Waggoner & Peterson thinks different, see the thread LDs are not OBEs

I also think it's a little deceptive to not mention the objections from several of the great authors. It's kind of a "Frank behavior". Frank assigned statements to Monroe, statements which I never have recognized Monroe with.

It's deceptive.

It's not deceptive... it's *MY OPINION*.  Understand the difference.

And I'm warning you now, please stop spamming that link all over the Astral Pulse.
I'll be straight up deleting your posts from now on anywhere you post it.  Enough is enough Pauli.

[Xanth]

No, I'm not. I am using inclusive terms that contain both.

I think that may be a confused mix. "Astral Projection" is an implied type of projection while actually arriving in "The astral" is the end result. AP... "P" is the how and "A" is the destination.
And WILD is not just 'how' ... the W_I_ is how you get there, the destination is in the _L_D state.

The "A" in AP and the "LD" in WILD are two different destinations in my book. I know the lines are blurred at the edges but this attempt to glom it all together and say its all the same just muddies the waters, imho, and is not constructive in the end.

You say tomato, I say tomoto. 

[urshebear]

wow didnt realise it was such an intense debate but yeeah....say it is all the same thing, what focus level would you be in while in a LD?
sorry if thats a stupid question

[Pauli2]

It's not deceptive... it's *MY OPINION*.  Understand the difference.

And I'm warning you now, please stop spamming that link all over the Astral Pulse.
I'll be straight up deleting your posts from now on anywhere you post it.  Enough is enough Pauli.

I've read old posts and new posts on this forum. And you and some other persons have stated over and over again that LDs are the same as OBEs.

More than a hundred posts!

Hundred "spams".

I don't kid you.

You and others have been writing the forum with more than hundreds posts about something which can be considered a lie.

It can be considered a lie, because you completely ignore skilled projectors like Buhlman, Waggoner & Peterson. And you continue to spread your claim which at least seems unsubstantiated. Your claim is unbacked and I would like to point you to read the arguments by Peterson. He has a whole table of arguments. It's in a link on page 3 of the forum thread you threatens to remove linking to.

Why should I be silenced when you are continuing to spread something which can be considered to be faulty?

And you are completely ignoring those who have both arguments, experiences and authority in this field.

Why do you want to spread this kind of statement?

Is it a Frank thing?

[Xanth]

Pauli,

I'm just gonna let the arrogance and ignorance of your post sink in for yourself, because it's quite clear, although I'm 100% certain you won't see it.  *sigh* 

Anyway, from MY perspective *THEY* are the ones lying... so why should I (and others who share my opinion) be silenced when YOU are continuing to spread something which can be considered to be faulty?  <-- I just pointed out your arrogance and ignorance for you.

[Astral316]

I think that may be a confused mix. "Astral Projection" is an implied type of projection while actually arriving in "The astral" is the end result. AP... "P" is the how and "A" is the destination.
And WILD is not just 'how' ... the W_I_ is how you get there, the destination is in the _L_D state.

The "A" in AP and the "LD" in WILD are two different destinations in my book. I know the lines are blurred at the edges but this attempt to glom it all together and say its all the same just muddies the waters, imho, and is not constructive in the end.

The thing is projection is traditionally "will induced" for all intents and purposes... no special tricks separate the two terms as far as viable methods into the non-physical. So why would the same method take you to a different destination just because you're using a different word to describe the process?

My opinion... I'm an advocate for getting semantics right but it seems some of you are arrested by it. As long as you're lucid and fully aware that's the ideal non-physical experience, why this forum was made, etc.

[Xanth]

wow didnt realise it was such an intense debate but yeeah....say it is all the same thing, what focus level would you be in while in a LD?
sorry if thats a stupid question

You'll quickly learn that it's really more a battle of semantics than anything else.  

As for the Focus Levels... I *highly* suggest you not worry about those for now, and just move towards practicing and having your own experiences.  Journal them, then if you so choose and when you have a sufficient number of experiences logged, go back to them and categorize and compare.

[Pauli2]

...what focus level would you be in while in a LD?
sorry if thats a stupid question

It's a fair question.

Monroe defined dreams to be in F 22 as this link shows:

"Lucid dreaming is Monroe's Focus 22 state."

---


Edit: But notice that some other skilled APers have reported meeting dreaming people in other Focuses. For example can people with special interests travel up to at least Focus 27 if they have certain intentions with them from waking reality. They may still be in a regular dream state, never become lucid and won't remember their dream, but they can go from F 22 to F 27 if they are in the right state of mind of wanting spiritual growth or curiosity.

[Xanth]

Edit: But notice that some other skilled APers have reported meeting dreaming people in other Focuses. For example can people with special interests travel up to at least Focus 27 if they have certain intentions with them from waking reality. They may still be in a regular dream state, never become lucid and won't remember their dream, but they can go from F 22 to F 27 if they are in the right state of mind of wanting spiritual growth or curiosity.

This is now something I've been removing myself from the Focus Models regarding, as I actually see no reason why a 'dreamer' would be relegated to a single "area" of consciousness. 

It makes a lot more sense that we might drift throughout many reality frames while we sleep... allowing our subconscious mind to do the drifting.

In effect, that says that Monroe's Focus 22 (Franks Focus 2, inclusive) doesn't really exist and nailing a precise number on something like that close to, if not entirely, impossible.  That would also completely toss out any notion of a "Focus Model of Reality".  Since consciousness would then be able to go anywhere at anytime regardless of conscious state of awareness.

[Rudolph]

It's not deceptive... it's *MY OPINION*.  Understand the difference.

And I'm warning you now, please stop spamming that link all over the Astral Pulse.
I'll be straight up deleting your posts from now on anywhere you post it.  Enough is enough Pauli.

Pauli is absolutely right. It is deception. It is NOT just your *opinion*. (Claiming a falsehood to be just another opinion is just more deception).

You can say that "in your opinion" the chocolate ice cream is the same as strawberry ice cream but every kid on the block that has tasted both will know that you don't know what you are talking about. They will know that you are wrong.

And posting a hyperlink to another Astralpulse thread that is recently active and directly relevant to the present discussion is NOT spam. I for one appreciate that Pauli goes to the trouble to conveniently provide it.

Thanks Pauli.

[Xanth]

Pauli is absolutely right. It is deception. It is NOT just your *opinion*. (Claiming a falsehood to be just another opinion is just more deception).

I think it's important for you to realize what you're saying here.  And I apologize to the OP, because this is going a bit off topic... but this is something that I see happen many times on this forum and really needs to stop.  I'm probably guilty of it myself in the past, and I do try to catch myself before making posts of such nature.

Are you telling me what my opinion is, Ruddy?  And further to that, are you telling me that my opinion is wrong?
While you're more than welcome to disagree with me, my opinion which I base entirely upon my own direct experiences, can not by the very definition of "opinion" be wrong.

If someone doesn't agree with you then they're just automatically wrong?  Is this how you always debate? 
Hopefully you recognize the irony in your statement and choose to not continue such discourse in the future. 

You can say that "in your opinion" the chocolate ice cream is the same as strawberry ice cream but every kid on the block that has tasted both will know that you don't know what you are talking about. They will know that you are wrong.

Again, you're looking at different variables.
How are you comparing the "chocolate ICE CREAM" to the "strawberry ICE CREAM"?

You're not looking at the base nature of the product, which is *ice cream*. 
You're not looking at the base nature of the experience, which is *consciousness in a reality other than this one.

Again, Ruddy, you say tomato, I say tomoto.  You're choosing what you determine to be the difference... I'm choosing what I determine to be the difference.  This discussion just further serves to divide an already divided community.   Can't we just say... hey, I love and enjoy ice cream!  And leave it at that? 

And posting a hyperlink to another Astralpulse thread that is recently active and directly relevant to the present discussion is NOT spam. I for one appreciate that Pauli goes to the trouble to conveniently provide it.

It is spam when it's done MULTIPLE (read: several times over and over and over and twice within the SAME THREAD) times, as your only response to threads.  Single word/single link posts are spam.  They're usually overlooked, but do it enough and they will get deleted.  It's also a case per case basis... the thread in question is at the very top of its subforum.  It doesn't need to be cross posted all over the forum.

We also have a forum search function for a reason.  If there's a thread someone talks about, I encourage you to do the legwork and find it.

[Stookie_]

Holy moly, this is still going? I stand by my "is this really an issue?" Seems to create more problems then it solves. If you can consciously enter a non-physical state of consciousness on a regular basis, you're doing pretty damn good no matter what you call it. I can say that every LD, every OBE, every AP I've had, I've always came away FASCINATED, both in the experience and that I can do it. I've never once went "what exactly was that?" I WAS FULLY AWARE IN ANOTHER STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS!, that's what it was.

Is that not amazing to anyone else? To be able to consciously exist non-physically while having a physical body? 15 years down the line and it's still amazing to me.

And just because a person can write a book about AP doesn't mean anything. I've always considered that Buhlman might be a shill because you could write his stuff just by reading other AP material and a little imagination, yet never AP. I think anyone could.

[Rudolph]

Are you telling me what my opinion is, Ruddy?  And further to that, are you telling me that my opinion is wrong?

No - if you think that I am, please quote me exactly where I did that. I am saying that you are making a false claim and then trying to hide behind the immunity granted by 'opinion' status.

If someone doesn't agree with you then they're just automatically wrong?  Is this how you always debate?
Hopefully you recognize the irony in your statement and choose to not continue such discourse in the future.

I do not disagree with those who make true statements. There is no irony in my statement and there is no 'automatic' in my disagreement. Please quote me exactly to point out any irony. (Your groundless implied accusations buried in a baseless interrogation stream is another deceptive semantic tactic).

Again, you're looking at different variables.
How are you comparing the "chocolate ICE CREAM" to the "strawberry ICE CREAM"?

Yes, exactly! I am looking at different variables and observing that they are different variables.
okay... spelling it out slowly... The "chocolate ICE CREAM" is akin to LD while the "strawberry ICE CREAM" is full conscious exit OBE.... Get it?

Now, you can admit that you are 80 years old and have smoked 2 packs a day since you were ten and your burnt out taste buds can no longer TASTE the DIFFERENCE -- that would be fine. But to claim chocolate = strawberry is still a false claim.

You can say that your favorite flavor is strawberry and that is your opinion. Fine. But to say strawberry and chocolate are the same? ... now you have just made a false claim. To try and hide the false claim behind 'opinion' status won't fly for those of us who know the difference and for those who do not know the difference, they will only remain confused. And the one who makes the false claim has done a disservice to the neophytes.

LDs are not OBEs

[Xanth]

Please point out where I said I was comparing the chocolate flavour to the strawberry flavour.

After you've failed that... please point out what I *WAS* comparing in my above post. 

[Astral316]

A toddler could make the distinction between chocolate and strawberry ice cream. What are the exclusive properties of an LD and OBE that warrant this analogy? I still haven't heard a clear distinction between LD and OBE accept the way in which the non-physical is entered... that's like paying before or after you get said ice cream... not a distinction of ice cream flavor.

[Lexy]

a lucid dream is when you are aware within the dream. A OBE is when you are not only aware within the dream but also aware that your body is sleeping in your bed & you are not "in it". That's what I think. Thank you.

[Rudolph]

Please point out where I said I was comparing the chocolate flavour to the strawberry flavour.
After you've failed that... please point out what I *WAS* comparing in my above post. 

After I've "failed that"?... and you dare to accuse humble Pauli of arrogance!... geeezz.

Here is one recent place where you made the comparison;

Astral Projection = Out of body experience = Dreaming = Lucid Dreams = Phasing = Whatever name you might have for it
They're all the same thing

So much for your failure prediction.

[Summerlander]

I can't believe this crap is still going on...

Rudolph and Pauli2...abstain from your ignorance and take heed of my supreme intelligence...

OOBEs and lucid dreams are terms that we made up. There is only the Phase and the many ways it can be entered and experienced. WILDs is the phasing out of the physical body focus into a visual construct arising in the hypnagogic/hypnopompic states. Astral Projection is a disgusting fantasy name given to the same phenomenon where one has the 'idea' of separating from the body into another visual construct concocted by our unconscious minds which most of the time turns out to be a poor simulation of the bedroom surroundings full of anomalies - a botched illusion by your mind as an attempt to give you 'sense' and comfort after your 'separation'. The truth is, your mind could be duping you but you don't want to consider this as a possibility...oh no, it would go against your beliefs and the mighty Rudolph is never wrong and can't possibly delude his own self.

If WILDs are different from so-called OOBEs then why is it that the latter can turn into a dream, genius? Couldn't that be due to the gradual change in brain activity? After all it's a phase and some call it the Phase state - a very appropriate name if you ask me...

[Rudolph]

The truth is, your mind could be duping you but you don't want to consider this as a possibility...oh no, it would go against your beliefs and the mighty Rudolph is never wrong

What beliefs? What am I not considering as a possibility?

Summer, I will thank you to stop putting words in my mouth and beliefs in my heart. Reply to something I have actually said, if you would, please. You do know how to use the quote feature, right?

If WILDs are different from so-called OOBEs then why is it that the latter can turn into a dream, genius?

Well, that is such an easy question to answer that I will set the infantile tone and rhetoric aside and simply reply;

The latter can turn into a dream the same way anyone in the waking state can drift into a dream.

As long as the "D" in WILD stands for 'dream' I will say it is different from the level of waking consciousness long associated with the OBE state before the disestablishmentarians came along.