Phasing or APing?

[Tee1234]

I've read old posts and new posts on this forum. And you and some other persons have stated over and over again that LDs are the same as OBEs.

More than a hundred posts!

Hundred "spams".

I don't kid you.

You and others have been writing the forum with more than hundreds posts about something which can be considered a lie.

It can be considered a lie, because you completely ignore skilled projectors like Buhlman, Waggoner & Peterson. And you continue to spread your claim which at least seems unsubstantiated. Your claim is unbacked and I would like to point you to read the arguments by Peterson. He has a whole table of arguments. It's in a link on page 3 of the forum thread you threatens to remove linking to.

Why should I be silenced when you are continuing to spread something which can be considered to be faulty?

And you are completely ignoring those who have both arguments, experiences and authority in this field.

Why do you want to spread this kind of statement?

Is it a Frank thing?

This is true, Im with Paulie on this one. Bothers me when new people come to this site asking what the difference is between the 2 and you make sure to tell them its the same. To me its like your telling them they experienced something that there close to but didnt get yet.

Yes, its somewhat annoying that Paulie quotes every author he reads but its the point that counts. If your gonna preach your side of it then he should be able to as well. Let the newbies decide for themselves.

NOT THE SAME -Not even close. Maybe I should put that in my sig

[Summerlander]

LOL

Rudolph, you are something else, you are. I expected that response from you. Very predictable.

Do yourself a favour and smoke some salvia...you might realise that even the term "dream" is something we came up with as the simplest explanation possible.

[Astral316]

NOT THE SAME -Not even close. Maybe I should put that in my sig

Mind explaining the exclusive properties of an OBE and LD, then? Nobody actively supporting this distinction seems to want to explain it based on their own experiences.

[Summerlander]

Yeah, explain Tee!

[Rudolph]

Mind explaining the exclusive properties of an OBE and LD, then?

Well, I don't recall anyone claiming that there were any "exclusive" properties. So no one is beholden to the request to supply such.

There is a condition that we all recognize and refer to as the "waking" state.

There is a condition that we all recognize and refer to as the "dream" state.

Most would readily acknowledge that there is some overlap.

I think few would claim that there are mutually exclusive aspects in either that always occur in the one and never in the other. Though there might be. (But I doubt it)

[Lexy]

I lucid dream a lot..I am more of a lucid dreamer than anything else. While in the dream I am aware that I'm dreaming, its very vivid, feels real but its more like I am observing it at the same time as being in it. On the rare occasions I have a OBE, I don't feel like I am observing it, I feel like I am totally in my astral body and I am not part of the other stuff going on, I feel more seperated, more of an individual experiencing something objective. Whereas in a lucid dream it feels like I am experiencing my imagination mixed with astral. I feel more in control in the OBE, more aware that its a different reality. Whereas in lucid dreaming I am less in control and more a part of the whole dream than just myself. Even though I know I am dreaming and can change the direction of the story, I still play the part I am in. Hope that makes sense. Its really hard to define & relate that to other people. it doesn't bother me what people want to call it, I am just happy to have these experiences. In a regular vivid dream, I have no idea I am dreaming I just observe it and have no control as to what is going on. Its all like how far beyond your imagination can you get?

[Rudolph]

Even though I know I am dreaming and can change the direction of the story, I still play the part I am in. Hope that makes sense.

!

Not only does that make sense but your entire post is practically a affirmation checklist for a goodly portion of the LD vs OBE table in the link that Pauli isn't allowed to link to anymore.

[Xanth]

After I've "failed that"?... and you dare to accuse humble Pauli of arrogance!... geeezz.

Here is one recent place where you made the comparison;

ROFL  You failed sir.  Why not answer the QUESTION I ASKED instead of obfuscating with something I didn't.
This is your game, I'm not playing your games anymore.

UNLESS you can please point out where I said I was comparing the chocolate flavour to the strawberry flavour.
THEN after you've failed that (AGAIN, mind you)... please point out what I *WAS* comparing in my above post.

If you can't directly answer my question, then you are nothing more than smoke and mirrors and deserve the attention of this board no longer.

[urshebear]

Going from my experiences I know which side I lean toward but being a newbie I don't think my 8 months of experience would hold any value in this debate and I really don't think it matters anyway..... my opinion could even change in years to come.

I am going so say that I am not the type of person to believe what the first person tells me and I think the fact that not everybody thinks the same way is a good thing. I think both sides have valuable points but I'm going to base my opinion on my own experience...

[Astral316]

Well, I don't recall anyone claiming that there were any "exclusive" properties. So no one is beholden to the request to supply such.

When you say that recognizing an LD from an OBE is analogous to recognizing strawberry from chocolate ice cream it's pretty much implied. If you're saying LD and OBE lay on a spectrum, it's still a fair request that the extremes on this spectrum be identified or else what merit does it have?

I think the bottom line is that there are many aspects of a non-physical experience. Some people experience these aspects in groups and categorize accordingly (LD and OBE.) Others, like myself, experience these aspects as independent from each other without pattern and so categorize based on the two most important aspects (awareness and lucidity.) Neither experience is wrong, neither is "deceiving" the novices. Both beliefs should be showcased and like urshebear mentioned, let the experiences categorize themselves. No need to force belief as fact.

[Summerlander]

Yes, no need to force any belief as fact. I'm with you there, Astral316! Which goes back to what I was saying to Rudolph when he was denying what people were stating from experience and saying that their statements were misleading.

To Lexy...I've had NON-lucid vivid dreams that were so true to life, highly defined and made me feel like I was absolutely IN them. In fact some of them could beat some of my lucid dreams and OOBEs in terms of realism and definition. How would you explain them?

I'd also like to point out something I've observed ages ago from several Mode 2 OOBE excursions...You enter a realm post vibrations where everything is a thought - even movement/distance - hence the sensation of separation is absolutely illusory!

Both in lucid dreams and Mode 2 OOBEs I have had 2D pictures on walls and was able to plunge into them to find myself in 3D versions of the pictures. I was also able to change the perception of depth into a 2D flat surface and could touch it. Even movement and distance are thoughts. It really disappoints me when retired scientists insist on viewing the metaphysical realm as though it is also a 3D world...I can assure you with a 100% certainty that it is not. You don't really separate...it's an ILLUSION.

Also, in OOBEs, the environment can be affected by observation...you can look in a direction, look away, and then look back to find that things have changed...just like a dream. In all fairness, although different in quality, it could all just be dreams and no amount of whinging is going to take credit away from this POSSIBILITY.

You could just be entering the realm of thoughts and these terms (OOBEs/AP/LDs) could all be the same thing. I haven't seen anyone take into consideration the peculiar dreaming of split-brain patients yet! All I see is Pauli2s and Rudolphs holding on to their Astral Projection fantasies and quoting money-grabbing whores like Buhlman as the absolute truth. Do me a favour and experience it and observe! Think hard about the nature of the experiences!

I've also heard about the silver cord and in three years I haven't seen one. I've also heard about having to do energy work in order to reach higher realms - baloney! - I've had a profound experience in a colourful harmonious world (hence the name "Summerlander") and yet I've never done any energy work! My view is that any of these constructs can be accessed by anyone who is able to consciously focus away from the physical body and into mental constructs which could be personal or collective BSTs in the non-physical field of reality.

[Xanth]

To Lexy...I've had NON-lucid vivid dreams that were so true to life, highly defined and made me feel like I was absolutely IN them. In fact some of them could beat some of my lucid dreams and OOBEs in terms of realism and definition. How would you explain them?

That's how most my non-lucid dreams are like.  They feel EXACTLY like astral projections just without the awareness that I know where I am.
It's just another reason why I don't believe AP's and LD's are separate.

[Rudolph]

Rudolph when he was denying what people were stating from experience and saying that their statements were misleading.

I never said anyone else's statements about their experience was misleading. I did not deny anyone's experience. I affirmed and acknowledged such. I said the claim of LD=OBE is misleading.

I have noticed over they years that there is a good rule of thumb when evaluating the veracity of a claim when someone says "So-n-so said such-n-such". There is a very simple to use 'quote' feature here and simple cut-n-paste is ... well, simple. When the accuser does not paste in the words they are putting in the mouth of another it is usually because they are putting a distortion or twist or spin on it that isn't there in actual context. Often they are just making it up completely.

This is the mark of a deceiver.

All I see is Pauli2s and Rudolphs holding on to their Astral Projection fantasies and quoting money-grabbing whores like Buhlman as the absolute truth

"their Astral Projection fantasies"...?...

Gee Summer, sounds a little like you are "denying what people were stating from experience"!

And I never quoted anything Buhlman said as "absolute truth".

You really are on a deception streak today.

[personalreality]

And I think describing the various OBE states as "experiences of an inner reality at varying degrees" is a good way to put it but using the mathematical "=" sign is going too far. They are NOT 'equal'.

you have to consider the context rudy. 

in the sense that they are all experiences of the same "place", an equal sign is entirely appropriate. 

as far as the content of each experience, they are different, but again, they are just different degrees of the same thing.

hot and cold are just varying degrees of the same thing.  hot and cold are the same thing, 100%. 

we're talking polarity here, physical <----> nonphysical.  both are the same reality seen from varying perspectives, but they are still the same.  once you see this you will understand that everything is equal to everything and everything is the ALL, bottom line.

beyond that, you are splitting hairs. 

however, since we're talking about this, it's not really practical to try and distinguish between modes of conscious experience or degrees.  we can perceive these differences, sure, but just like there is no line on the thermometer that differentiates hot from cold, there is no definite distinction between each mode of conscious perception.  what i experience as astral projection is not what you experience and you cannot deny that.  it's the nature of subjective experience.  the degrees of variability in polarity are infinite and subtly different.  so in my opinion, you're arguing over something that can't be definitively proven. 

but whatever, you like to argue your point and i get that, i do too.  you need to be right. 

hey rudy, would you be willing to give me your birth information?  i would be interested in seeing your natal chart.  if you are, i'd need your birthday, birth time and location.  i understand if you don't want to, it is a bit personal and this is the internet.

[Rudolph]

so in my opinion, you're arguing over something that can't be definitively proven.

but whatever, you like to argue your point and i get that, i do too.  you need to be right. 

To say that there are varying degrees is true, but neither here nor there. What is at issue here is introducing ambiguity by stating LD=OBE and saying "ohhh, see it all just a matter of degrees" -- which is true but it begs the issue. Hot does not equal cold and even warm is not hot. We have the different words for a reason. Why the insistence upon muddying the waters like that?

Also, it is not that I *need* to be right but more that I prefer to be right. (why would anyone want to be wrong?) 
[actually some acquiesce in a "can't we all just get along" sense, but in the end that is counter-productive, imo]
I have been Seeking Truth since well before half the kids here were even so much as an itch in their daddy's pants and I have gotten pretty good at it over the years. I make no apology for that.

I also get a kick out of watching folks of a certain rigid, elitist, superior mindset react to seeing their false assumptions revealed like the Wizard behind the curtain.

I am a capable astrologer and will PM you the pertinent details on a confidential basis.

[Summerlander]

That's how most my non-lucid dreams are like.  They feel EXACTLY like astral projections just without the awareness that I know where I am.
It's just another reason why I don't believe AP's and LD's are separate.

Exactly. And that is a valid reason for doubting that AP's and LD's are separate.

@ Rudy:

It depends on the context, Rudy. sometimes people want to be proved wrong. In your case, you want to be right all the time (like everyone, sure) but it is impossible for you to admit that you are wrong.

[personalreality]

Also, it is not that I *need* to be right but more that I prefer to be right. (why would anyone want to be wrong?) 
[actually some acquiesce in a "can't we all just get along" sense, but in the end that is counter-productive, imo]
I have been Seeking Truth since well before half the kids here were even so much as an itch in their daddy's pants and I have gotten pretty good at it over the years. I make no apology for that.

I also get a kick out of watching folks of a certain rigid, elitist, superior mindset react to seeing their false assumptions revealed like the Wizard behind the curtain.

Oh I think you need to be right, lol.  I think I need to be right too though, so it's not a dig at you.   

And I understand the joy of poking people, but all truth is only a half truth.  the other side of the coin is always equally true.  it's not an ambiguous cop-out, it's the nature of reality, the nature of that polarity i was talking about.

I also don't think that length of time seeking truth is necessarily an accurate portrait of wisdom (though I don't think that's quite what you were saying, so my apologies if i put words in your mouth).  I'm only 25, I've been seeking truth for about 10-15 years, but I often have found myself showing elderly seekers a thing or two.  For example, I have a very good friend who is a 62 year old christo-pagan wiccan priest who has been seeking for the better part of 50 years and I schooled his old butt daily when I lived near him (though he equally schooled me on other subjects).  Point being, don't let yourself fall into the elitist power trap either friend.

[Xanth]

I also get a kick out of watching folks of a certain rigid, elitist, superior mindset react to seeing their false assumptions revealed like the Wizard behind the curtain.

And I can *GUARANTEE* that if you keep that attitude, you won't be posting here for much longer.

Now, Rudy, are you gonna answer my previous question?

UNLESS you can please point out where I said I was comparing the chocolate flavour to the strawberry flavour.
THEN after you've failed that (AGAIN, mind you)... please point out what I *WAS* comparing in my above post.

Because so far, as my initial assertion made, you have FAILED.

[Summerlander]

This is exactly why the guys at Astral Viewers banned him. By the way, Xanth, can you clarify to Rudy that me and you have not been talking about him behind his back? He went all paranoid on me and PMed me on Raduga's OOBE Forum about the Arlindo-Ryan conspiracy theory.

[Rudolph]

This is exactly why the guys at Astral Viewers banned him. By the way, Xanth, can you clarify to Rudy that me and you have not been talking about him behind his back? He went all paranoid on me and PMed me on Raduga's OOBE Forum about the Arlindo-Ryan conspiracy theory.

Summer, you are such a disgusting so-n-so! (and ridiculously dishonest)

Talking openly about comments made in a PM on a separate forum is a gigantic faux pas of outlandish proportion... how could anyone consider you a decent human being after this outlandish display?!

Here is one example;

You said this while I was temporarily banned here;
"By the way, I've been in touch with Rudy...
He's only got three words for all of you and it's not "I love you""

No such conversation *ever* took place. I never made any comment that would fit that scenario. The liar completely made it up out of whole cloth.

I recently asked you privately if you had been in communication with Xanth (over our communal disagreement - nothing to do with "the Arlindo-Ryan conspiracy theory") because it would be consistent with your modus operandi.

{could you possibly stoop any lower?}

[Summerlander]

Outlandish display? It's the truth though, isn't it Rudy.

Why are you getting so upset though? It's nothing major...

By the way, who said I was a decent human being?

[Tee1234]

This is exactly why the guys at Astral Viewers banned him. By the way, Xanth, can you clarify to Rudy that me and you have not been talking about him behind his back? He went all paranoid on me and PMed me on Raduga's OOBE Forum about the Arlindo-Ryan conspiracy theory.

Thats pretty dirty Summer. If somebody PMs you, its private. You dont go blabbering it on the boards. Not that you care but you just lost my respect.

[Xanth]

Guys, how about we all just step back from this discussion and take a breather.  I'm calling a time out on this discussion for now.  I'll revisit the locking of this thread in a few days.
I will say though, that I do agree about the PM issue... PM's are private for a reason.  Let's try and see that doesn't happen again.

Although, I would like to say that I'd appreciate it if everyone could try to remain civil and be a little more light-hearted while posting here on the Astral Pulse.  It'd be much appreciated as we're all friends here.