Messages

One category of experiences that I have tends to happen in the mornings, when I am sleeping in. Usually I doze fitfully on those mornings.

I will be attempting trance, and certain that I am not asleep. I will not have vibrations (I rarely do anyway) or even feel like I could pull away. My sense is that I'm just lying there waiting for trance or something to happen.

So I am still very aware of where I am, my body, etc. It seems clear to me that I am awake.

I'll then decide to pull out one arm or both arms. it will feel like I am moving my physical arms, and it takes real restraint to not just grunt in disgust that this is stupid because I am just moving my physical arms.

After I try some maneuver (usually grabbing my astral hands together to see how real they feel, or perhaps some sort of bending exercise to see how flexible etheric/astral matter is) I'll finally let myself open my eyes and I am certain by this point that I will see my physical arms doing all those things. To my relief, my physical arms, every time, have been lying on the bed - I haven't felt them, used them, moved them. It always blows me away a little. There is no discernible break in consciousness at any point.

This morning I had one of these experiences. It was unique because as I was experimenting with my right arm (and certain again that it was my physical arm) I decided to snap my fingers together. I placed my arm in front of my head (my physical arm was behind my head) and easily snapped my fingers together - felt them, heard the snap clearly and as real as anything, I have a complete memory of the sensation and it was real.

I had two new thoughts during this time - one was very exciting, it was that I was really and truly succeeding in training myself to be able to separate limbs more or less on demand (under conducive circumstances, of course). I had made a decision to try this and just went and did it. That was really new, and I don't know that  I'll be able to do it tomorrow or the next day, but the sense of "Wow, I am learning this" was very palpably there.

The second thought was less exciting - simply the realization that I can indeed hear as well as I do when physical. I often don't have a sense of hearing, so this was neat.

Oh - there was a third thing. After snapping my fingers, I knew that nonphysical existence was real. I had the distinct experience of being in a place where I knew I was indeed nonphysical (in part.) I asked my self, "Do I really truly know this?" and answered myself with a resounding YES.

Now, sitting here at the computer I don't have that knowledge - but I do have the memory of being in a place where I had the knowledge. Sort of like the knowledge was available to me there but not here.

(Oh one more thing  - When I opened my eyes and was blown away again that my right arm was lying behind my head - I tried to snap my physical fingers. They were too dry, I had to try a few times before I could get it. I wanted to compare the physical snap with the etheric snap. Sure enough, once I got my physical fingers to snap, the feeling was the same - but the sound was behind my head where it should be. Not in front of my head where my etheric arm had been.)

Very neat, memorable experience. Reassuring, and holding promise.

Hey  Tom,

How much of a purist are you? I ask this from the standpoint of seeing people throw the idea of "leaving your  body" around in every context imaginable (e.g. on one of my exercise videos, etc).

I personally think I had two farily convincing experiences as a result to emotional trauma, followed by a most active dream life including states that ...sort of seemed OB, and to the extent that I can verify them, I wonder if I can trust that they were.....

From one standpoint, I still haven't had the sort of OBE that one reads about in, say, "Journeys out of the body" in which a person meets their guide and gets a tour of this that and the other, sees the silver cord and comes back knowing beyond doubt that death is not the end.  From another standpoint, I regularly have "something" which is different than pre-emotional trauma days. I think the verifications I get are similar in magnitude to what Monroe reported (he saw playing cards, turned out they were envelopes - etc.)

When you say 14 years and counting, have you had LD's, third eye vision, anything weird like that in the mean time? What would constitute an OBE for you? And what were your experiences in the 90's?

Maybe this should go in OBE discussions, but I felt weird directing a question to a specific person there.

here's a mildly interesting OBE from a few days back:

quote:I had a brief sort-of OBE this morning. One of the types that seems logical at the time and only later I realize things don't jive. it started with me separating my arms, feeling two sets of arms, feeling both sets as real as can be. Then I separated my legs from my legs, and they also felt real - both sets. I tried doing some funky bendy stuff with the astral legs, that was interesting, they bent however I tried to bend them.  I had the presence of mind to wake myself up a little more (get more into the C1 level of consciousness per Monroe) and saw that my physical body was still in the same position I had fallen asleep in.

Then I left the bedroom through a transom in the doorway (in the experience I thought "Oh yeah, there is a transom here" because I had had an experience a year ago in which there was a transom there) and went to the living room. I checked my clothing - long sleeved pink shirt  which I don't own.  Met my family of origin in the living room and had a giggle fit about how we were all there without our bodies - it seemed really funny at the time - and upon awakening realized that of course they aren't in the house with us. then went back and "re-entered" consciously and awoke.

My question for you, is whether, when you OBE into the real time zone, or even into the astral, if you see a continuity of circumstances, maybe even a continuity that you only remember while you are there.  Like the transom in the OBE above. It isn't there in 'real' life, but I remembered it having been there and it was there again, this time. Sometimes it isn't there.

I'd love to hear about it, if you see some Reality Fluctuation events holding  from one experience to the next -

patty

Patty

The suicide thread has me thinking about this.

First I'd like to mention again that I am currently holding the notion that all viewpoints in comunity can be perfect. Including the viewpoint that I may adopt in the future that this notion is ludicrous.

Anyway. Dave and I share some similar ideologies. I wonder how we both came to this. I know that I have come to my present, (always evolving) understanding because of the trauma of my child's death. I know Dave has lost a child, too.  I also know we both attribute our interest and success in projection, to the experience of losing a child. (maybe that sentence will put this post on-topic for this forum!)

So I wonder, am "I" the totality of my experiences? That idea has always sounded a little flat and empty to me. Surely there is a "me" that has been shaped by experience, but is not wholly defined by experience?

During meditation lately, I have found myself returning to an image that came to me after Rachel's death. The image was of a core of energy within me, that wasn't me. It sustained me, (sustains me) , but seems beyond me. I had thought of it as the divine giving me life.

I read some Jung a few days back in which he describes the 'self' as something separate from the ego. THe ego is an appendage of the self. When he went on to try to define self, which is hard, the description sounded very close to the image that I had during meditation.

This image, during meditation, allows me to drop fear, allows me to see the eternal beingness of existence (sorry for the jargony sound of that) .  It's just a different level of focus, separate from the worries of the world, and lately I have found it to act as an anchor for me.

So then my thoughts on what is self, what am I, leads me to emotion. This meditation takes me away from emotion. Despite the fact that I value my emotion. I think that it is this. I think that in this focus, the emotions are not repressed or controlled, they simply are not present.

This leads me to wonder if we are all really saying the same thing about emotions, from different viewpoints. I could not have the understanbding that I do were it not for the extreme emotions that I suffered seven years ago. How could I not value them, then? And indeed it was emotional distress last week that brought me back to this meditative image of a 'self' that is both in touch with the divine, and also free of emotion. But not in control of emotion----

It is as though the emotions control me (to some degree) until I find a way to allow them, from a place of calm ... something. Acceptance? it is sort of a buddhist thing, too - the impermanence of these states.

I also had the thought that if I were in the place that I was in some years ago, and may be again someday, my posts would be very angry indeed.  Is that 'me?' I have no idea.

I need a useful metaphor for this idea of emotions, self, and so on.

Warmly,

Patty

G'day Robert!

You mentioned recently that you might put together a treatise on Kundalini.  I was wondering if that is still in the works? I realize you are busy, and that it might be secondary to other projects.

I ask not because I am in any rush to get started on the process, but because we are discussing the topic elsewhere so currently my mental state is 'fertile ground' for ideas revolving around Kundalini.   Your initial experience was a fascinating read.  

I am also looking at things with Jungian lenses these days, due again to conversations we are having elsewhere on the web. Apparently Jung wrote about Kundalini himself. Here is an essay on Jung and Kundalini you might enjoy - and I am wondering if parts of it resonate from your experience?

Warmly,

Patty

quote:




One enduring statement that C.G. Jung made late in life about not having to be a Jungian reveals much of his attitude towards the psyche. He saw his scientific role as a phenomenologist always open to the ambivalent and many aspected ambiguous intrusions of the unconscious into the ego field of conscious existence. He saw the ego loosely attached to a vast impersonal realm of the Self, which, in his later works he presented as the only objective and fundamental reality human beings could connect with. From this perspective the multi-layered, and to the conscious being, bewildering, complexity of the soul's functions was as fleeting as the Buddhist Maya. The west sees this Maya as the reality, and focusing our civilisation on the mastery of externals has produced its own catastrophic psychic disfunctioning as the values of internal reality have been neglected.

Jung saw the Indian speak not of Personal/Impersonal, Subjective/Objective; but of a personal consciousness and Kundalini. The two were never identified: the Gods were utterly different from humans. It was necessary to live through, and establish, a presence of stable consciousness within the world before it was possible for the detachment to gradually emerge which would permit that other, objective reality to connect with the conscious. Jung's journeys to Africa and India enabled him to confirm his experiences of the unconscious as he saw the visible proof of its functioning in the pre European modes of his own era. His description of how, in the myths of the Pueblo, where the emergence of conscious from a dark and very dim beginning proceeds through a series of caves one above the other to a full awakening on the surface of the earth in the light of the sun and moon, parallels the system of chakras outlined in Kundalini Yoga, as the development of the impersonal life.

Jung was aware of the existent texts on this subject, from Arthur Avalon's translations from Sanskrit to the Chinese 'Secret of the Golden Flower' a Taoist manual translated by Richard Wilhelm, a key figure in Jungian life whose deep knowledge of Chinese esotericism enabled him to formulate a number of basic concepts of psychology, among them the theory of synchronicity -(a concatenation of events linked by a single meaning). Jung's interpretation of the process of Kundalini did not, however, stem from theories. It was the consistent attention he paid to the indications of its movement within the psychic life of his patients that gave the conforming clues to the emergence of the impersonal life of the collective unconscious. He was keenly aware of the dangers of the ego becoming inflated by the stirrings of unconscious contents to the extent of total psychic imbalance. Temporary identifications could make the ego lunatic for a time; prolonged identification could produced schizophrenia. The structure of Indian systems on the other hand drew clear distinctions between the transitory and permanent self which could only be realised in a state of detachment. The gods, in European or modern man so efficiently focussed on outer existence, Jung described as being reduced to mere functions 'neuroses of the stomach, or the colour or the bladder, simply disturbances of the underworld.' The Gods being asleep stir in the bowels of the earth, as the idea of God in conscious life is remote, abstract and to one level of modern theology, effectively dead.

In the ideas of pre-European civilisations is reflected their identification with the various levels of the chakras. However, it was in the careful unravelling of the psychic life of his patients in their journey towards the impersonal self which he described as the process of individuation, that the Kundalini manifested. This gave his statements of the chakras a verification based on real experience. He concluded that the main level of activity of most people was in the lower three centres beginning with the Muladhara (literally, root support), where existence was established, through Swadistana (the manifest creativity in the personality) and to Manipur and Void, centre of emotionality, the Red Sea of the Old Testament whose crossing to the Heart (Anahata) required the discipline of the Guru both individually and collectively. At the heart the first intimations of the Self reach consciousness. The Purusha, whose tiny flame of eternal being establishes the domain of objective reality. If, as Jung suggests, enough people could connect with this level the mass psychoses of out modern era would vanish altogether.

Jung saw each chakra as a whole world in itself. At the level of Muladhara for instance is the earth, our conscious world, but also where instinct and desire is largely unconscious -a state of participation mystique. Reason can do little: storms of emotion or externally, war or revolutions can sweep all away. The bizarre elaboration of weapons in the modern world is nothing more than an attempt to contain or destroy the threat of impulses from the lower centres. Worse, much of it is an expression of them.

Jung found the stages of individuation of his patients elaborated through dream and symbol corresponding with those of old mystery cults. In baptism he saw a reflection of the dangerous journey of analysis itself - baptism being a symbolic drowning to inaugurate a new life.

Jung realised that arousing the activity of Swadistana, the Kundalini itself had to be aroused, but he also realised that such happenings were spontaneous, and not produced through the dangerous practices of Tantrism where the exalted idea of shakti, the pure Kundalini, is degraded into the literalism of a sexual cult. Jung never practised any form of organised meditation but saw the attention itself gathered into deeper levels of being by the motion of the unconscious self through Kundalini awakening. Further, the motion of anima leading into the depths of the unconscious, he recognised as an imaginal figure projected by Kundalini and identified with it.

In the various symbols surrounding the chakras Jung identified with his own system. The Muladhara with its image of the elephant (Hindu Ganesha) has a fourfold structure of psychic functions (the chakra has four petals) and corresponds with the world of consciousness. The heart with its symbolism of the dear projects images of lightness of being, swiftness and elevation. Beyond; Vissuddi, Agnya and Sahasrahra - he said little except that as fully developed centres they were so above ordinary consciousness that not even thought could offer any illumination. Essentially he came to the view that, from the standpoint of the gods, the great archetypal figures, the world is less than child's play, a seed, a mere potentiality for the future. People, and they consist of the vast majority, who pass through life unawakened and unaware, victims of outer circumstances and inner compulsions, have not lived at all and pass back into the universal unconscious, to quote Socrates; 'the unexamined life is not worth living'. To Jung the awakening of Kundalini out of mere potentiality is to 'start a world which is totally different from our world: it is infinity'.

John Henshaw

Patty

http://www.asdreams.org/

Very comprehensive!

Patty

Hi everyone,

I had a more-or-less lucid dream this morning.

Possibly astral, i don't know----

I was in between wake/asleep (but mostly asleep) and tried to get up out of bed --- felt the carpet under my feet, and thought "Well, this *feels* like waking consciousness but who knows, maybe I'm still dreaming" so I jumped and flew up to the ceiling.

"WOOHOO!" I thought. "I'm having a travel. " The ceiling felt very real under my fingertips. I went over to the closed bedroom door (My bedroom seemed to be an accurate reflection of the 'real thing' in my current home)and as soon as I went through the bedroom door, I was in the hallway of my childhood home. At first I was upset "This isn't the layout of my house!" but then I reasoned (I actively "reasoned" in this dream!) that I could explore what this environment had to offer. I decided to go to my parents' bedroom. They have both passed on, and so I thought that their bedroom might be a place in this environment where I would be able to meet them and 'see' them again. (So I hoped.) Their bedroom was their sanctuary in my childhood. (household with 8 kids, we weren't allowed in the bedroom.)

I went into the bedroom and it was more or less correct - but the bed was conspicuously absent.

Why do you suppose that was? I have a few ideas but you guys are always good at seeing new angles. Why was the bed missing? I stood and stared at the empty spot for a minute. then I inhaled and smelled some rose scent. I don't recall mom wearing that, but it was most distinct in the dream. Maybe she wore it when I was real little or something. I remember that she DID have a rosebush outside her bedroom.

I then had a conversation with someone who was not visible. Just a voice. I don't recall the conversation but I think it surrounded 'why' no bed, what the bedroom might symbolize ---

I looked out the window and noticed some odd toys on the windowsill ---

and that is all I remember.

***************************************

So. Apart from the question of what the missing bed might mean.

I am thinking in a larger sense of how my sense of awareness has changed over the years in dreams. Four years ago when I started trying to become fully aware in dreams, I succeeded --- and I saw a clear correlation with the degree of awareness that I had in the experience, and my ability to reason. In other words, if I was *fully* aware in my dream, I would know my body was asleep, be able to recognize what elements didn't make any sense in the experience, I had a 'body' that mirrored my physical body, etc.

If I was only slightly aware, I would think that I was having a lucid dream, but would not note the inconsistencies. For example, four years ago I wouldn't have noticed if my current bedroom exited into my childhood home until I awoke, at which point I would question the whole thing.

Today, I was moderately aware. No body, not certain if it was a dream, a lucid dream, an astral projection, or what. I wasn't concerned about any of those things. There were elements from all of the possible dream categories. I didn't feel hyper-alert or even aware of a body. Rather, I felt sort of aware of my surroundings but able to immediately recognize inconsistencies, and able to easily reason how to navigate the environment. Able to ask in the context of the experience what this or that might mean (Although I don't think I received any meaningful answer.)

Do you have any thoughts on awareness, consciousness, reasoning ability ---- how these things interrelate in dreams? I am not saying that my experiences today are better or worse than they were four years ago (I still wish to have a fully conscious hyperaware OBE where I can validate projection of consciousness separate from the body; today's 'dream' was definitely not THAT. But it did have a lot of value in other areas.)

Thanks for any ideas!

Patty

Hi.

Just want someone to talk to. I can't put my fingere opn why I feel so low. But I do. I guess I'm really burned out on life - I am a 'homemaker' and that means nonstop meals, cleaning, consoling other people, running errands, and it is constant. From 7 in the morning til 8 at night, every day.

I' ve been doing this for over five years, and have another 3 years before the baby is in school. We don't have family around to take the kids, and we aren't comfortable with baby sitters. We get away now and then when friends can watch the kids.

Anyone know any good jokes or anything? Or do you have a pick-me-up story? maybe a good OBE or NDE verification that you have heard lately?

Patty

Hi!

My recent (and ongoing)  'journey within' isn't giving me many answers!

probably because I am actually getting pulled into daily events, my energy has been focused on family and kids moreso than internal stuff.

Anyway, I browsed and enjoyed many of the recent threads - Think I'll visit tomorrow and actually chime into a few conversations.

I missed you folks!

Patty

I'll be gone for the foreseeable future.

Sort of like going on a pilgrimage.

Happy travels!

Patty

Hi!

You know, I have tried to be so good lately, really trying every night for the last few weeks to have an OBE and this is the longest dry spell I've had in a while.  Every night I feel positive about it, I do all the work that has 'worked' in the past, and I still don't get out.

I noticed something though - I was watching the hypnogogic imagery and remembering the input from Rodentmouse, Frank, Jilola, Ralph, and others - and i started to wonder if the imagery could be a tool for me to use somehow. For me, this imagery usually has a mundane form, like people doing something. I get it quicker if I allow my thoghts to drift. Like at one point I started thinking about the microbewery that Muzza is going to have at the institute, (heehee) and I started thinking about sharing recipes and brews there --- and the thoughts started taking on a life of their own in the form of dreamy images. I would snap my attention back to the present then, and the images would go away.

What I noticed was this - the images are carrying me away from strict attention. it occured to me that they are probably a method that I have used since I was a kid to fall asleep. So now, when I have these images, it's like if I jump on board with them I'll sail away into sleep and dreamland.  That's what my body is used to doing after 36 years of sleeping. I guess that's why it is important to keep a blank mind to attain deep trance - because images can weaken your conscious awareness.

now for my questions - if you have any input I would love to hear it.

I tried rope and felt zilch. In the past I have always felt a tugging imediately when I roped. And like I said, I'm in a dry spell. Do you think taht there are times when your energy body simply is empty of energy, has nothing to create itself and would that account for the dry spell and lack of rope-sensation?

Or do you think: That sensations continually modify, that as we progress, we are given progressively harder or different ways of doing things from our higher self or whatever? Maybe Oversoul Patty (my theoretical higher self) has pulled the plug on rope sensations because it knows I should be tuning into something else here for my personal growth. Or something?

I feel like every time I get the hang of it and every time I feel ready to launch out, all of it (sensations, exits, the way it works) changes. And I have to relearn OBEing in a different way. Or something.

Do you have dry spells? Please, throw me a bone. Tell me my persistence will help me, that I am learning through the practice even though I am not reaching my goal. I DO try to stay rather 'zen' about it, like 'it will happen when it happens' and I manage to find value in whatever DOES happen (like the insight last night into imagery/sleep.)

Any tips on how to break a dry spell?

Anyone have any extra energy they want to send my way?

xoxox

Patty

I thought I might share this. I haven't had a decent projection in a couple weeks, but I have been meaning to consolidate some of the more meaningful experiences that I have had over the last few years  and so towards that goal...

I faced my fear regarding exit sensations in 1998. I had never had a conscious projection, or even a lucid dream, but I had had some very frightening energetic sensations since 1996, following personal trauma. When I found Monroe's books, I thought the energy sensations might be pre-exit symptoms.

As I have mentioned before, once i decided to try to project (using the 'stay awake as your body falls asleep' idea that I read about somewhere) it took less than a week to succeed. I found myself in the bedroom, in the same location as my body, but clearly not 'in' my body. Whoa. It was so weird.  Completely 'real' but too brief to really check all the systems, you know, I really didn't have time to explore being body-less before my body woke up.

It was convincing enough that I asked my husband to put a note on a high shelf. I wanted to try to read it while out of body. During my second projection, which was every bit as convincing as the first, I found myself standing under the high shelf. It was so eerie (sp?). I was standing there, everything looked completely normal in the bedroom, but eerily grey and hummily quiet. Like there was a buzz that you couldn't hear, only feel, and there was no other noise. Very otherworldly. I stood looking at this shelf, out of body, and thinking - "how the heck am I supposed to get up there???" then I woke up.

I continued to project about once or twice a week following this, but never again have I had the complete sense of being in the physical world but without a body. (that is to say, since then, there have always been strange elements that don't fit the physical world. Like dream fragments or 'thought forms.')  In all of them I would wake up before reading the note. But, the first time I made it to the shelf  - I found an empty coke can. Crumpled, old, empty can. This stuck in my mind because I knew upon waking that it was so ludicrous. There was no way a coke can would have gotten on the shelf. The shelf is built into the house, and it would have meant that someone would have had to throw the can up to this shelf - ten feet off the ground - it made no sense. I was really upset by it, feeling like "If I can't trust what I see, then I am never going to prove to myself that we survive death." (Or something along those lines.)  

After maybe a half dozen attempts to read the note, I told husband that I couldn't read it. It was too dark (something that I thought shouldn't matter before I had any experience) and so we should take the note down and put something that I could identify by feel.

I got a ladder, and climbed up  -  and  on the otherwise empty shelf was a pull-tab from an empty coke can - it had been there for years, covered with dust. Also there was the note, which said "WAKE UP!"  (my husband's idea of a joke.)

I had been convinced that the empty coke can had been entirely a mental construct. Finding a tab from a coke can was so unexpected. It was only a little thing, and it might not mean much - but it was so surprising and rewarding.

(I won't comment on the fact that every time I tried to get to the note, I would 'wake up.'  Grrrr. )

I realized today that I can see progress in my attempts. For instance, I had real difficulty getting to the right spot on the shelf to find the note initially (the pull tab, for instance, was five feet away from the note.) But it occured to me today that this sort of targeting problem doesn't crop up anymore. I seem to get right to where my playing card is set out - no trouble at all. So maybe I will get these reality fluctuations under control, too.

Patty

Is it my imagination, or does the forum (and it's boards) load more slowly that they did a month ago?

Patty

Hi everyone,

I think I made it out this morning. But it was so brief, and the room was flipped, and I was walking on the ceiling, and MAN! why can't these experiences reflect the physical world a little more closely.  (my new mantra - practice, practice, practice)  Anyway, experientially the interesting thing was that I DID remember to look at my hands to try to keep the locale from fluctuating. Not much luck there --- I was pretty much losing the experience by then anyway. My hands didn't exactly melt, though it was a tiny bit shocking to see them. And they did look a little strange.  

I managed to go check my playing card during the experience and saw an Ace of spades. I thought 'that isn't right, the only aces in the deck are red.' (my deck has only red aces and black face cards.) So I then saw a second card, red ace, and a third card - two of something.  Well, i knew that this was not to be taken literally, but figuratively it seemed to me that the important information was "ace."  (in the moment, the two seemed to be an indicator that I was looking at 2 different aces.)

Anyway, when I woke I wrote it down - with real concern as to whether it was a real travel or a dream. I have this concern lot, because of all the inconsistencies that you don't notice til you come back.  So I wasn't sure if I would officially guess the card or not. After writing it down, I decided to officially guess it - So I called it Red Ace,

And it was!



Patty

(1) What is your motivation to try to leave your body?

(2) What sorts of truths or big answers have you found through your spiritual journey (this may or may not include insights gleaned while in an altered conscious state.)

My answers -

(1) Primarily, I think I would live more at peace and at ease if I KNEW, through and through, that we survive physical death. This seems like it would be good for me as well as for those around me. Secondarily, it's fun, and it pisses off my husband (wicked grin).

(2) The only big answers I have ever figured out is that, at any given moment,  we can choose to make loving decisions or not.  I didn't get this from any altered conscious state, but from severe depression, when I finally decided to try to live.  I've had dozens of (not-quite-satisfying) LDs and OBE's/AP's but I am not sure if you get real answers there or not. (I'm still hoping for the big tamale of OBE's though, where I meet God and he explains it all to me and it makes sense.......... heh heh heh why not..........)

So - I am curious what your motivations and insights are.  Or just one. Or the other. Or ramble if you feel so inclined.

Patty

I dreamt I was discussing topics from the board with two other people from the forum.  I would not have remembered the dream at all except that at one point we looked at our hands to see if they would melt, which they did, I became lucid briefly and the two people were still there though I didn't think to ask who they were.

I don't know if we really meet other people in our sleep states or if it is all internally generated. Either way is valuable as far as I am concerned ---- but I have to ask!  Were you there?

Patty

The first post is the preliminary stuff. The second in the thread is the actual OBE.

First of all, Thanks to Frank for saying 'Gateway track 2' enough times for me to finally listen. I pulled it out last night to give it another try - in the past it had really helped me relax much more completely, but I had only used it once or twice. I usually use track 4 (free flow 10), when I decide to use a tape. I went to bed at 9:45 with track two.

So I was very very nicely relaxed last night. And I decided not to do any energy circuits, but rather to go with what has worked for me in the past, which is to stay alert as the body falls asleep. I was determined last night, and I think the gateway tape really helped me achieve a tension-free alert relaxation rather than a sleepy relaxation. (Since I have been doing more circuits lately, the 'storage' idea may be relevant even if I skipped the circuits last night.)

I must have drifted in and out of consciousness, but even so during the times that I was conscious I felt like I was maintaining my determination to stay alert very well. That is, there wasn't the sense of "oh shoot, I fell asleep again" rather there was the sense of "yep, I am staying alert" even though I must have been drifting into sleep now and then based on the elapsed time.

So a couple times I feel completely alert and am stil very mariginally aware of my body, and I try to pull free. This is probably around 11:30 - 12 or so. I can get the arms free, in a sticky pulling way, but as soon as I try to get the torso and head free, I start to wake up the body. I tried some of the waterskiing idea, with interesting sensations but no separation. On about my third attempt to just walk away, I pulled it off.


Patty

Well, it helps me just to chat about my attempts. It helps me remember them better, more importantly the feedback keeps me focused and directed and connected to like souls.

So I'm remembering the hang of how to get into trance. I recall a few months (a year?) back, that I was so pleased that I could hold my mind still, and I've been having trouble with that this time (it's been hit or miss some nights) but last night it was cakewalk. Like a still pool. I think I am remembering the hang of it and I hope that I can be more consistent. It's weird, it's really as though my mind is in a different state when in a still trance; I mean it isn't just a matter of quieting the chatter. Rather it is switching to a mental rhythm that doesn't happen to think. Does that make sense? Am I on the right track?

And I tried a new thing that seemed helpful so I thought I would mention that -

Occasionally I'll try this thing where I try to open up to God or the higher spiritual forces that be - sort of a remnant of my catholic upbringing of God being the potter and we're the clay sort-of-thing. i think it is a useful exercise in general as it keeps me from getting too caught up in my own agenda and allows me to remember that my personal plan might not be as grand as a higher being's plan.  It's possible that I'm not all-seeing .

Anyway, I've never tried this 'opening up' bit while trancing along.  (I'd always done it as part of my pre-trance affirmation stuff.)  So I tried that variation last night, (waited until I was in trance and then tried putting my agenda second to the Great Spirit's plan) and WOW,  a BUNCH of energy centers immediately came on-line, like a warm glow was coming out of a dozen different points on my limbs, in my trunk, etc simultaneously.

No OBE, but it did lead to greater understanding of how to work with the system - and also happened to make the trance more stable (I guess that's no small potatoes.) It was a delightful sensation.

on a different note - One recurring problem that I have - help please? - is that during trance I will sometimes feel more and more content, to the point where my will to stay alert reduces and after a while I find myself thinking "that's good enough for tonight, I'll go to sleep now."   I have tried a few daytime exercises to help shore up my resolve (introducing rituals and abstaining from alcohol; that sort of thing) and these help - but any other pointers on how to stick with the program during trance is appreciated! I can't meditate during the day because of small children in the house. So I'm stuck with nighttime. I am heading to bed earlier in the hopes of being able to work with it before getting sleepy.... Any other ideas?

Patty

You guys, I know you know this, but I just gotta say it. This place is great. I've been looking into these topics (ap, ld, rv, etc etc) for about four years and have found friends here and there ----- but this forum is just simply GREAT.  The number of similar experiencers and seekers, and general respesct for one another, and acceptance of each others experiences, and the quality posts, and the active natuire of the community.....

Natch, my husband rolls his eyes when he knows I'm trying to project (groan.) Can't talk about it with most of my friends. Live in a fundamentalist community. My family of origin is no better (though I did convince a sister to try some hemisync for her insomnia.)

THANK YOU.

Patty

Hi,

I'd like to share one of my lucid dreams because although it was a lot of fun, I am not quite sure what to make of it.

I was dreaming non-lucidly that I was caught in a large net. No surrounding scenery, just this large net in an otherwise empty dreamscape. I was thrashing and trying to get free - and about then I gained lucidity. I was able to work my way through an opening in the net and leapt into the friendly void feeling the fall so tactilely, and feeling "I'm free, I'm free, I'm free......."

So when I land, still in a void but on some surface, I remembered all the advice about asking your 'big' questions while in an altered state of consciousness like this. So I asked "What is the purpose of life?" Very loudly and forcefully.

Immediately (get ready) a shopping mall appeared ahead of me. I was on a conveyor belt and moving through the automatic doors to the mall.  I start walking once I am inside, and see all sorts of people. Most of them are clearly humans who are unaware they are dreaming at that moment. To my left was a group playing arcade games in the main corridor of the mall. Ahead an to my right were some non-descript shops and a group of obvious grey-haired 'elders' who were clearly lucid, aware, sort of above the human automaton folks.  I went up to them and said "What's this all about?" They looked displeased that I had bothered to ask them and moved away without answering.

I continued thrrough the mall, turned a corner to my left, and saw a bar in the main corridor with people sitting around having drinks. Over across the hallway/corridor I recognize an old friend sitting by himself in a booth having a brew, and he waves me over - He laughs and says - "Oh do join me Patty. I do so hate to dream alone."

I laughed at the joke and woke myself up.

So, what is the purpose of life? To shop? To drink? To not take things to seriously? And please don't disturb the grown ups? Life is nothing more than a shopping mall? I am hoping for a meaning with a little more substance!

Any ideas?

Patty

Over the last week I have been looking for guides. I have had a new experience as a result and I am unsure how to proceed on this one. First of all --- I know there is a significant amount of emphasis on this forum regarding the darker side of mysticism. I don't personally buy into that because I believe my very real-seeming demons have all turned out to be figments when I confronted them. So feel free to offer input about negative entities, just know where I currently stand.  I'm open to the concept but doubtful.

Here's the experience. A few days ago, when asking about a guide (actually I asked whether a real-life friend whom I consider to be a somewhat advanced soul could act as my guide) I had the sense that there was a guide within me. It is a strange sensation. Sort of how one might imagine being body-snatched, but not at all threatening and rather comforting in a 'we're in this together' sort of way.

So I don't know quite what to make of this. I had the same response the next two times I placed the question. I wonder if the message is that the guidance I need is within myself, or if the message is that guides can take many forms, or if the message is that less-than-complete trust is a hurdle that I should try to overcome ( it would require some large degree of trust to really turn the driving over to someone else.)

I don't know that the experience will go anywhere - but it is a persistent sense. II am tempted to turn the driving over and see where it leads. The sense of companionship runs entirely through my body, it is not localized in any location. I suppose if anyone had had similar experiences, it might make my decision easier.

Anyone?

Patty

Well, I am pondering this idea that chakra stimulation is a separate type of 'exploration' than astral projection.

Now, personally, I had my most vivid projections when I most needed them, this was before I even knew what chakras were (So I certainly hadn't 'cleared' them or anything), and my experiences happened when my body was completely asleep.  In that sense, I agree with Frank that to project, one needs only to shut the body completely off while having full mental alertness.

However, after those first experiences I no longer had the intense need that I originally had.  I was still interested in having more experiences however. I ran into a dry spell, and started trying different approaches. I learned that you can't wave a stick in the OBE literature without hitting ten different references to chakras and energy flow and so on. So I spent some time learning about chakras. I believe that at the time I had an open root chakra, and that my heart chakra was also recently opened. I believe that I felt significant 'blockage' through the system (as it is supposed to 'work') and over the years I have tried to clear that with seeming success. When I started exploring the chakra system, I found that intense stimulation of the root chakra would often lead me to altered states of consciousness after falling asleep. Coincidentally I read that many psychics are highly-sexed individuals. (I only read that once, though.) I also read that sex can be a springboard for OBE.  However, none of that variety of experience was as vivid and concrete as my pre-chakra-awareness OBE's. Rather, they were hot, colorful, dreamy, but still seemed like OBE's and still quite worthwhile even if secondary in my mind to the original experiences. At present, focusing on the chakras, running energy through the (relatively clear) system at night (i.e. no back up in the root chakra anymore, etc) will often lead to a night of interesting adventures that are independant of physical sensations.

For example, I might go to bed, run as much energy as I can, try to clear remaining blockages, and generally enjoy the exercise - then drop off, and proceed to have a precognitive dream and also separately might wake in the morning able to see my astral arms separate from my body.  This is highly unlikely on the nights that I don't do any 'energy work.'

Robert maintains that running etheric energy through the chakra system and storing it in the subnavel area is necessary for psychic attempts including OBE. Frank maintains that the two (chakra system vs AP)  are completely separate.

All of this leads me to a big question mark.  Frank, do you believe that your chakra system flows smoothly? Do you believe that you are using your chakras at all when you project?

Everyone, what are your experiences? Have your most convincing experiences involved chakra activation or not? What is the connection? Wild speculation as well as well thought-out ideas are welcome.

Patty

I am wondering about something. I find thjat I will often have a reasonable projection followed by a period where it is REALLY HARD to get anything remotely resembling a projectionj. After a while, I can find the 'stuff' within me to project again.

I wonder if a projection drains a person's psychic energy?  Am I creating my own problem by believing that I am draining my stored energy, or is there a legitimate phenomenon of psychic drainage following projection? If I am observing a real effect, how do I get around it, or can I get around it? I have this naicve idea that a person can get stronger and stronger in there attempts - but maybe there is a limit to how often one can project?

I appreciate any and all input.

Patty

Hi again -

One area that I am intrigued with is the variety of physical sensations one can have when trancing or doing NEW/related exercises.

A common recurring one is feeling like a balloon, feeling like there is swelling in the chest that just keeps increasing and increasing.  I have heard this might indicate blockage in the heart chakra or throat chakra, and in fact when I spent time clearing those areas I finally felt like energy could flow to my head.  That led to headaches/similar sense of expansion or pressure in the head similar to what Jeni talked about below. ( I think I resolved it by allowing it to dissipate; although it is possible that if it had intensified it might turn into a projection?)

But I am not sure that the balloon sensation really represents blockage.  For one thing, it is a lovely sensation unlike the headaches. Also, last night it occured to me to 'send' this energy to a friend who has a rough time right now and the feeling felt like it went straight out of my heart region (presumably to her). That seems like it could be used as a helpful sort of tool.

Do you get these sensations?

I recall reading RB's take on this - with the idea of blockage and how in fact when you get 'better' at things there is less sensation. I wonder about this too.  At present, I can ask for 'more energy' from my higher self or helper and will feel the sensation intensify. So it makes sense to me that even when your circuit is clear that given enough energy you'd feel something. And I guess I see a correlation between how strongly I feel a strange sensation and the likelihood of an altered state. So I hope that the feelings wouldn't diminish - it would be disheartening.

For a period when I was doing NEW, the sensations DID diminish, and my lucid dreams and projections went down. Bummer.  So I shelved it for a while. My present delving has a lot of sensations.

There are other strange sensations too. Like root chakra blockage/stimulation  --- which in fact has in the past led to some very lucid dreaming.  (I've heard that intense groin feelings can be a springboard for OBE.)

And through all of this - It can get exhausting. I have trouble balancing seeking a more intense experience with getting enough rest to meet daily needs. Any tips on that one? Some of the participants seem younger - and I am sure I can learn from everyone here - but with kids and a house and yaddy yaddy yah,  I feel like I can't afford to flit around the astral planes at the expense of getting enough rest!  I'd love some tips on rest and relaxation and balance. Also would love to know that there are 'older' experiencers here. Age shouldn't matter, but when I talk to my contemporaries they speak as if
astral travel is something for adolescents (!) and that I need to 'grow up.'  Anyone else here refusing to buy into that?

Well, THAT was a longer post than I normally make.

Patty

Hey there.

I am excited about the new format here at the astral pulse. I used to visit the old forum but stopped in part because it seemed hard to follow threads. THis format seems much easier.

A few years ago I started trying to project - I had some sort of 'awakening' as a response to tremendous grief and Monroe's books helped me get an understanding of what might be going on. I had two pretty convincing projections early on, followed by a year or more of regular lucid dreaming and occasional verified projections. In my experiences lucid dreams and OBEs are closely related and sometimes it is hard to separate one from the other. The fact that I verified some of my lucid dreams makes me think that they were really OBE's but with some attached dream imagery. Still, only the first two seemed like I was a coherent 'me' separate from my body but on the physical plane. The rest are more tenuous.

More recently I have been away from attempts and my sleep patterns have been 'dead' - fall asleep and then wake up 9 hours later. Talk about boring. But restorative anyway.

I am ready to delve into the astral realm again - and I expect to be chatting it up around here to create a positive mental climate for the attempts (and successes!)

Patty