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You could become an expert at listening to your heart beat but that is likely not to get you out of your body.    When I was at the course years ago I spoke to a man and he listening to his heart beat.   He became extremely good at it.   His toes, legs etc became heart beats and eventually his whole body began beating.   I said to him did you ap and he said no.   I always wondered why he did not succeed.   Years later I realise that he still has to get out of his body. 

Thanks Astralsuzy, this answers my question (which you said you weren't sure about what I was asking).

I have found this type of observation to be generally true concerning nearly all these cults. They talk a big story but when you get right down to brass tacks they really can't astral project worth beans. In about a half dozen cults that I got to know quite well and again in another half dozen that I got to know a little, almost no one could claim even so much as a few lucid dreams much less actual full conscious OBE projection. Even senior level members who held "teacher" status! I also noticed that despite what they admitted to me in private they would claim otherwise among new people coming to the meetings. They would take a handful of vivid dreams and use that as their claim to OBE ability.
Among the Thelema Initiates I knew there were certain tests that had to be passed in order to be initiated above certain levels that required "astral projection" projection ability and quietly on the side they would admit to me that they managed the test with more of a remote viewing effort. This is fine and all, just to me they ought not to be claiming actual full conscious OBE projection abilities when it simply ain't so.

Have a read and this'll clarify.
http://www.dpjs.co.uk/lefthandpath.html

That was an interesting article, Ssaxx, Thanks.

Here is a quick summary it provided;

Features of LHP philosophies frequently include:

    Emphasis on freethought, not dogma or strict systems.
    Highly individualistic.
    A distinct rejection of absolutes and moralism.
    Personal, not universal.

Heh, that would include MOST of Western Civilization nowadays!

But what I was curious about was how you knew enough about this path to make the following evaluation; "This is known as the 'left hand path', it's not worth following as there's more to it than you realise and you may not like it. "  (?)

And just FYI, I would like to clarify a glaring error in that article which is consistent with the ubiquitous anti-Catholic bigotry in the world. It said;

"Catholic Schools until surprisingly recently used to punish those who dared write left-handed because they were presupposed to be working for the devil - such children were "corrected" - a word which itself means "with the right"."

I know for a fact that this is absolutely false. I went to Catholic school in the pre-Vatican II days and this simply was not the case. Not only were lefties accepted in stride but extra material effort and cost was made to accommodate them. Every classroom had a row of left-handed desks along the far left aisle. This claim was not true then and it is certainly not true now.

Also, "corrected" etymology has nothing to do "with the right".
Middle English (as a verb): from Latin correct- 'made straight, amended,' from the verb corrigere, from cor- 'together' + regere 'guide.' The adjective is via French.
I have often noticed how many otherwise intelligent writers quickly morph stupid as soon as their "Catholic/Xtian" button gets hit.

I had fun because I was with other people.   I was able to talk about ap.   I had lunch with them.   I had good times.    It was a long time ago when I did the courses so my memory is a bit foggy.   I remember in the course we were taught Beezlebuub said imagine a noose is hanging around your neck.   When that happens you will be up in the next level.   Later I thought about it and I was not impressed.   I thought if you imagined a noose around your neck it would be awful.   If you became aware that a rope was chocking you how could that get you up into a next level.   

That reminds me of the story about a disciple who was asking his Master questions at the village fountain. He asked, "What do I need to do to attain Liberation?" and the Master immediately grabbed him and plunged his head under the water. Soon the disciple was struggling and then thrashing violently trying to break loose. Just as he was about to pass out the Master yanked him out and he sucked in a huge breath of air. The Disciple yelled, "What did you do that for?!"
The Master replied, "When you desire Liberation as much as you wanted a breath of air just now, you will be able to begin".

I am thinking the "noose" analogy was meant to instill a sense of urgency.

I have been among followers and members of quite a few cults over the decades. One thing I have noticed is that, as a group, many cult followers tend to make more progress in the early stages of learning than individuals who simply do a little meditation and a lot of reading. A couple exceptions would be the HareKrishnas and the Moonies, who I generally found to be rather clueless and often zombie-like.

I am curious what your sense of the level of knowledge and/or attainment of these followers was... ?....

I've always felt that people's egos get in the way of seeing any true numbers.

I remember Tom Campbell saying something about this... playing around with it...
He said (and I'm paraphrasing) that every time he looked for the numbers, got some, and played them... he wouldn't win.
Every time he looked for numbers, got some, and DID NOT play them... the numbers would win.

There's a lesson of Intent in there somewhere.

The way I heard Campbell tell it was that there was a psychic who was very talented and could perform amazing feats to show his ability. He made about 5 lottery predictions that were sealed and locked away and then opened after the drawing and he got all five exactly correct. After this he decided to actually play the numbers and he lost.

The moral of the story was that you can alter the probability field of future outcomes and influence the PMR (physical matter reality?) to some small degree but not usually in a big way. Small adjustments in future outcomes a short time out are doable but major life-altering events with long term implications are *very* difficult to influence -- bordering on all but impossible. The virtual reality rule set does not allow for this.

Forget beelzebub.    Perhaps I should not say that.   I am not helping.   There are better ways than beelzebub.   I did his courses years ago.   I stopped going as I found out it was evil.   I should have known.   His name says it.   It is up to you what you do.   Just my opinion. 

Astralsuzy, what did you experience that made you conclude it was 'evil'? (Other than the name... I'm wondering because you also said you had fun...?)

Szaxx, How do you identify a path as being "of the Left Hand"?

The "words" you use are actually meaningless... it's the *INTENT* placed behind the words which is what empowers them and causes an action.

The there's no difference between commanding "SEE NOW!" or "BANANA SPLIT SUNDAE!" if you place the Intent behind the command.

This is actually how everything works, even in this reality.  Intent is really all there is... once you figure out how to PLACE INTENT (because it can't be taught), then you'll have a much easier time "doing things" while non-physical.  Well, *AND* physically too. 

Xanth, (& Bluefirephoenix),

Have you ever been OBE and exclaimed, "BANANA SPLIT SUNDAE!" or anything like that, instead of  "SEE NOW!" and gotten the desired result? If so could you provide some detail on this?

In my experience words have meaning and blurting out something inconsistent with the intent would likely cause a form of cognitive dissonance leading to an uncertain outcome. An exception would be if a concerted effort were made in reprogramming an overlay of meaning on the nonsensical words. That seems like a big waste of time and effort.

Intent may be paramount but actions/words must be consistent, imho. Otherwise an accident might result. Sort of like someone smashing into the car in front of them when they hit the accelerator instead of the brakes and saying, "I meant (or my intent was) to hit the brakes". Things like this happen a lot.

Is it possible to literally go inside someone's mind with astral projection?And if the answer is yes what would it look and feel like? Has anybody on here ever astral projected into someone's else's mind?

About 6 months ago I got OBE and went to a place where there was a room of yellowish gold light. A young woman came and stood in front of me and we gazed at each other for a while. Even now I recall exactly what she looked like and I could pick her out of a crowd easily, if I saw her again.

At one point I thought. "I wonder what she is seeing when she looks at me?" Immediately I was standing in her perspective and looking up at me. (She was shorter).

It reminded me of the movie "Being John Malkovic" -- that type experience.

I know that there are 7 main chakras but 114 in total on the human body but are the 107 secondary chakras / energy points  still important too keep the energy balance in your body

The whole "its just data"/" all is illusion" idea can be carried too far. I have covered this elsewhere on another thread.

Of course all the chakras are important. Regarding the ones of most importance and of practical consideration to me in my AP/OBE projections, I think it is good to work a little on all the major chakras along with the secondary ones on the face.

I'm curious as to what you all think of or about walk-ins. What they are, what it means. Just anything you might know about them.

As I recall, it is a term I first heard from a Scientology friend several decades ago.

It refers to a condition where a person dies from shock or some other minor condition that left a perfectly healthy or at least reasonably healthy physical body behind and a Thetan/soul in the area looks the situation over and decides to step in and occupy the abandoned body and re-vivify it, and live out the rest of that body's useful lifespan.

I just ghost them, I still kept up with what they were doing.. didn't technically leave, did not make an announcement like some do. Just stopped participating in it all.

Very smart way to play it. I bet you scored more than a few brownie points on multiple levels for that maneuver.

This is interesting to me as I too have read many times about using commands. However I have only tried it a time or two and it just does not feel true for me. Like wanting to fly and needing help to accomplish that. To me the best way is simply to ask for assistance. Commanding assistance is just too high and mighty sounding, I ask and the help is freely given though.

I guess it boils down to whether a person believes they are in total control with everything and everyone else being simply a program with only one programmer (yourself) at the helm. In that case a flight program would need a command to work.

On the other hand if we are all in this together and each us must (in many cases) rely on others then a request would be more appropriate.

In short what I am saying is maybe you should examine how YOU feel about using power words and look for a better tactic. I'm sure you will figure it and hope this helps.

I feel the same way about The Higher Self/Holy Guardian Angel type aspects... bossing them around does not feel right somehow.

On the other hand... in certain OBE situations I have pronounced firmly with a 'command voice' certain words or phrases and utterly astounding and unimaginable events begin to unfold.

It is like a captain of a ship yelling out "Full speed ahead! -- hard to starboard..." and the entire ship springs into action. The next day the parrot on his shoulder whistles loudly and bellows, "Full speed ahead! -- hard to starboard..." aaargh, beep... -- and absolutely nothing happens. Rank has its privileges. The ship captain is expected to take control on a certain level but would not dream of barking orders at the Admiral of the Navy.

Hi,
I'm learning to OBE. From my experience of times I've woken up in the Etheric dimension (near astral) I found it feels the same, it was like I was still lying there in my physical body but I was out. How can you tell you've separated from your physical body when it feels so much the same?
Thanks.

I usually do a little hop and if I start floating it means I am OBE.

" How does this all end?" You could say (as the Hindus would) "You'd reach the muktisagar" or alternatively "You'd reach oneness and then it's all just consciousness without any form. Just being" but again "And then what?, .... And then what? .... And then again..."

It's too hard to put this in words. It's an emotion.
What is all this birth-rebirth and moksha?
What is ALL OF THIS?? as I keep thinking about it I end up feeling a lot of fear because it feels like I am stuck in this infinite looping game. (Even if it does end, what the hell is this so called "end"? What's after that?) I am trying to recreate my feeling as closely as possible in words. I hope you can understand.
Thanllk you.

JivanMukti is viewed as an "end" of sorts but it is really just an end of that particular School and one gets off the Wheel and graduates to a new game, of which little has been revealed. I suspect the next level would take place in a non-human state so that any discussion of it is impossible for the human mind to comprehend.

The Masters that taught the theory of Moksha as I first read of it also added that, "there is always a plus element"... One continues to make an effort to expand Awareness and improve Consciousness.
But given the pitiful state of the bulk of humanity there is no point in going into all that in any detail until a sufficient number of Souls start making some meaningful progress.

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_integral_philosophy/the_relative_playing_field-t46756.0.html

don't fight for something just to fight but help others and yourself to understand everyone's perspective.

Funfire, the issue here is not "perspective". The issue is people making false claims about Christianity. The issue is people talkin' trash about my family's faith. It really is pretty bad. I understand perfectly well what other people's 'perspective' is and I am fine with that. Okay, you don't like Christianity, fine, so don't go to their church. How hard is that?

What I don't get is how people get stuck in victim mode and go around whining and moaning, "Ohhhh, that terrible Church. I wasted an hour every Sunday listening to some ignoramus drone on about stupid stuff...". Geeez -- get over it. Show us some of that spiritual progress you are making lately and let go of your past and forgive and forget.

This claim that Christianity stifles growth is just plain false. The reality is that Spiritual Progress can be made very effectively within the rubric of many Christian sects. In the Catholic tradition the method of Centering Prayer as a meditative practice is second to none in building concentration and leading the Consciousness inward and developing a highly refined subtle awareness.

The time I spent among Mormons was enlightening. As a group, this culture instills a respect for others that is so very lacking among typical New Age type groups that get together and descend into a wallowing christian-bashing fest. I rarely heard malicious gossip spill from their Mormon disciplined lips. Some of their popular traditions like regular fasting and community service are very indicative of above average attainment in spiritual disciplines. They teach the rank and file to search within and learn to feel that "stirring in the bosom" that reveals the Guidance of the Spirit on a subtle level. These new age groups with their weekend workshops on developing psychic awareness have nothing over many traditional Christian practices.

I personally have an absolute disgust for the christian faith not the people. Being trapped for 16 years in that disillusion really gets to me.
of course no christian is going to have the same perspective of their religion because it is so distorted with information that people just pick and choose what is right and wrong. there are about 20 christian religions out there right now. The only thing they all get together on is that Jesus is there lord and savior that's pretty much it.

Perhaps you have heard the saying that "we see the world through the lens of our own consciousness". If you look at a religious tradition 2000 years old and see mostly the discord ... hmmm, perhaps that thought could serve as a contemplation seed to ponder in a quiet moment. Personally I see people who are trying to internalize exceedingly High Teachings like, "do unto other as you would have done unto you" and Love they neighbor as thyself". Given that over a billion people are in that population there is obviously a wide spectrum of degrees of success in internalizing these maxims.

Robert you are defending a faith that hinders progress. trying to grow or learn from any religion will only get you so far in life and in death.

And what I mean by defend is that you are trying to defend your own perspective of the christian faith. By getting a wider perspective you can see what is right from wrong. I don't need research for the christian faith I have experience.

sorry if our perspectives offend you but you can grow from it if your willing.  

Perspectives do not bother me. Falsehood and malicious gossip awaken my sense of justice and fairness. If you don't like Christianity don't go to their church. But if you want to spew falsehood and just go around trash talking an ancient faith and tradition, well... I hope you won't be offended if I step up and say, "that is a false claim". If someone says, "I don't like listening to an ignorant preacher on Sunday" -- *that* is perspective. I have no problem with that. But if someone says, "Catholics can't think for themselves and aren't allowed to disagree with Church Authority" -- *that* is outright falsehood. "Perspective" has nothing to do with it.

See the difference?

When you claim that I am "defending a faith that hinders progress" it means you do not understand the faith and perhaps you do not know what 'progress' is. Some of the most spiritually advanced souls I know practice the Ancient Catholic method of Centering Prayer as taught in the ancient teachings found in the "Cloud of Unknowing". The Catholic history is filled to overflowing with saints who made fantastic progress on the Spiritual Path. Show me another method that has produced a St. Francis or in more modern times a Padre Pio. In terms of OBE and AP show me a tradition or method that produces an APer that approaches the skill level of a Marilynn Hughes (devout Catholic).

I have brought up these points here multiple times but for some reason they are swept aside and completely ignored. It is difficult to continue clinging to ignorance and bigotry when you gain a little knowledge.

Your statements are contradicting. I am done with this topic.

Nothing I said was contradictory. You on the other hand, have made a stream of false statements. From your wrong comments about what "most" Christians would do upon hearing about an AP experience to what a majority of Christians believe about realms between heaven and hell, I have shown you to be very wrong.

If I had truly made any contradictory claims you could merely quote them and show the contradiction. But I didn't make any contradictory statements... so you won't be able to back up your false accusation.

"Purgatory (in Roman Catholic doctrine) a place or state of suffering inhabited by the souls of sinners who are expiating their sins before going to heaven." So, they will be afraid to AP because they will end up there LOL.

The definition is true but your commentary is utterly false.

Yeah, not true either. I have not heard APers experience this.

As I said, you appear to be hugely ignorant of a giant universe of Christianity out there. MANY APers have experienced this. Many, many APers throughout veritable AGES have experienced this.

So, this is another false belief. Unless all of us are not sinners.

Wrong. Completely FALSE Logic.

And by the way, there is actually no such thing as Christian Gnosticism, because true Christianity and Gnosticism are mutually exclusive systems of belief.

Wait a minute... did you just say *true* Christianity?...
?
...?

Perhaps in a parallel dimension LOL

Guess again.

Have you ever heard of Purgatory?
Or maybe the disputed realm called Limbo?

If you didn't get that was a joke I made in my head. But actually Christianity believes in exorcism anyway, so I dont understand your point.

Nor do I understand your point...exorcism? what's that got to do with anything?

And I am from California not the deep south LOL. Do your research.

Actually, unlike you I have not only done my research but I have included it here in this thread.

You can not deny that every Christian beliefs Jesus is our lord and savior, the only son of God and only through him we can reach the heaven.

I do not deny that.

This my friend is not true and this is a very limiting belief which lead to denial of AP experiences. Christians do not believe there are worlds between heaven and hell. So, if there are only heaven and hell and we cant pass to heaven without Jesus, then logically AP is not real to them. And if any of them believe otherwise, then they should not call themselves Christians.

Actually it can be seen as TRUE in the Gnostic view. Do you know what Gnostic Christianity is?
IT is NOT a limiting belief (any more than the Christian haters Belief system)
IT does NOT deny AP experiences.
(WHAT?!) Over a BILLION Christians believe there are realms between heaven and hell
They all call themselves Christian. What gives you the right to deny them that freedom?

I think you really need to broaden your horizons a bit... there is a giant universe of Christianity that you clearly know NOTHING about.

Did you look at the link I gave above?

Did you investigate any of the saints that I pointed to?

Do you even want to learn more on this subject?

You need to do more research on that. Just go to christian forums, bring up the AP topic, tell them that Jesus is actually not a god and we dont need him to get to heaven, and you will see for yourself what the majority think. I would be surprised if any Christians would agree with that.

The issue was your claim, "they would have called a pastor to expel satan out of me LOL. So, this is what the majority [of Christians] think."

With respect to world Christianity this is a patently false claim.

If you go to a Church of Wazoo forum and say "Wazoo is bunk" ... yes, you will get a lot of replies to the contrary. How is that useful or meaningful at all? (or even relevant?)

If you want to amend you original claim to be "Southern Baptist Christians in the Deep South of the USA" I suspect no one would disagree with you... but then some might ask, "what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?"

EDIT; On the other hand, if you went among these Southern Baptist Bible Thumping types and said, "I have visions that come to me in my dreams..." you would likely find almost NONE of them would think to try and expel satan...
If you walk in and poke a sharp stick in their eye they probably would react in a negative way.

I'm talking about the typical American christian church goers. I dont know under which category they fall but they are millions. Bottom line, religion is limiting in many ways and I see it all around me.

Yes, they are many millions in number.

And the ones who behave as you described are a distinct minority.

Religion can be very limiting for those who need limiting.

Religion is liberating and wondrous beyond words for those who are ready for that experience.

{there was an old saying, "money is the root of all evil" and it has been replaced in some circles with "religion is the root of all evil" -- both are wrong}

Robert do you feel like you have to defend christian faith? If so why?

To me defending a belief in itself is letting reality controlling the perspective.

Not trying to offend but I'm curios.

No. I do not.

I find the present popularity and proliferation of outright falsehood concerning Christianity to be a fascinating phenomenon.
I promulgate truth and refute falsehood.
I find the general reaction to such activity to be rather enlightening.

The desperation with which so many cling to bigotry and falsehood is quite the sight to behold.

Well, I have a lot of Christian friends, I have attended bible studies and church services so what they believe is that you can get to heaven ONLY through Jesus. They dont believe there are ghosts. They believe any supernatural stuff are from the devil. During one bible study a few years ago one of the ladies was talking and she said something about the new age , AP and all that garbage that young people believe in and how the Christianity needs to fight these evil teachings and everyone agreed. I did not say anything, because if I told them that I could AP and have been to heaven, they would have called a pastor to expel satan out of me LOL. So, this is what the majority think. There are of course more open minded individuals among all religions, scientists, atheists, etc who are interested in all that and talk about it. But the majority of them dont.

What?

"So, this is what the majority think"

Please allow me... I disagree.

The largest Christian Denomination in the World, by far, is Roman Catholic -- and if you said something like that among them they would NOT "have called a pastor to expel satan out of me"... not at all.

Then there are the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglican, ... etc. -- None of which would respond in that manner.

What you are describing is more typical of a Southern Baptist type church and the many spinoffs of that genre. They are a definite MINORITY. We are talking about 1.7 billion or more orthodox Christians versus a few hundred million of the free wheeling bible thumpin' variety.



2 Largest [Christian] denominational families and denominations

    2.1 Catholicism - 1.2 billion
    2.2 Protestantism - 800 million
    2.3 Eastern Orthodoxy - 225–300 million
    2.4 Oriental Orthodoxy - 86 million
    2.5 Anglicanism - 85 million
    2.6 Restorationism and Nontrinitarianism - 42–48 million
    2.7 Church of the East - 0.6 million


I would say that about half the Protestant Christians would NOT react the way you described. Not the Methodists, not the Lutherans, and certainly not the Episcopal. My Lutheran Grandmother was where we kids got our first Ouija board to play with.


1. Southern Baptist Convention: 16.2 million members
2. The United Methodist Church: 7.8 million members
3. The Church of God in Christ: 5.5 million members
4. National Baptist Convention: 5.0 million members
5. Evangelical Lutheran Church, U.S.A.: 4.5 million members
6. National Baptist Convention of America: 3.5 million members
7. Assemblies of God: 2.9 million members
8. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.): 2.8 million members
9. African Methodist Episcopal Church: 2.5 million members
10. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America: 2.5 million members
11. The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS): 2.3 million members
12. The Episcopal Church: 2.0 million members
13. Churches of Christ: 1.6 million members
14. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World: 1.5 million members
15. The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church: 1.4 million members

Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/the-15-largest-protestant-denominations-in-the-united-states-92731/#s0eiZCd60ryXqjlK.99

I've had some interesting conversations on this topic with Jehovas witnesses, they don't practice the art and only those on the upper eschelons are permitted to comment on with any authority. I could have had a meeting if I joined...
The Christians instantly mentioned it's devils work to which my life saving responses met with deaf eats unfortunately.
The Catholics wouldn't comment as it was for high authorities to address.
All were very respectful and polite.

Well, most people "don't practice the art" (even most of those who say they do).

And of course it is left to the authorities to "comment with authority"... that's their job.

I do not know about the Jehovah's Witnesses but I can speak about the Catholic reality. If you ask a Catholic about AP and they say it is "for high authorities to address" it only means they do not wish to comment... usually because they have no clue whatsoever. It certainly isn't because they are not allowed to comment. Catholics are free to think whatever they wish and harbor doubts, disagree with authority sunup to sundown right up to the moment they die and it does not affect the state or degree of salvation they might enjoy. They can discuss LD and AP among friends, colleagues and family and hold forth with any opinion they like. The Church does not begrudge them that freedom, not one whit. Many people were surprised, to say the least, to read in Mother Theresa's journals the broad extent and depth of doubts she harbored. They *still* made her a Saint.
Where the line gets drawn is "open and PUBLIC REFUTATION of Authority" which makes sense if you think about it. If you are in that sort of mood why don't you just quit. That's what I did.

Just as a point of reference here is one devout Catholic's website;
http://www.outofbodytravel.org/outofbodytraveltv/catholicteaching.html

I watched a few of her youtube videos and perused a few of her books and imho, she was one of the world's foremost practitioners of astral projection, at least, while she was in her prime. (I have noticed that very few practitioners can keep up a pace like that).
I hope that link will help dispel some of the false notions that people keep repeating.

I tried remembering my dreams, for some reason it helps now. I wrote one dream in a small notebook, ever since I keep remembering parts of my dreams. I'm actually super excited!
I tried binaural beats with reversed headsets, unfortunately they didn't work, so far no progress on that bit, could there be another reason?

This is a good start. As Phildan said, developing dream awareness and eventual Lucidity is key. Keep working this angle for several more months. You can keep interest fresh and energized by reading books on dreamwork, lucid dreaming, etc.
Check your library and if you have a few bucks to spare order a book or two.

I think the topic of closed-mindedness rather was meant to be what they believe AP to be or to mean in their frame of reference. Not if they are tolerant or not and how they react to other beliefs or experiences.

Maybe the OP can clarify again. I gave some examples to elucidate clearly how Christians are, relatively speaking, one of the more open-minded groups on this topic. Belief about what AP may be varies widely ... I am not sure how "belief" fits in here.