Don't you get sick of being human?

[MakiZero]

I see many of you understand what I mean which is good. Now on to illusions if only some people could see that money is nothing more then paper. It's kind of stupid if ya think about it lol. People are killing over paper. Money is one of the many great illusions I was talking about also. Sure it gets you things but we need to remember it's only paper(nothing more).

[kiauma]

quote:Now on to illusions if only some people could see that money is nothing more then paper.

Let me gues MakiZero - you don't have any money, right?  [][]

Actually, money is energy.  It is like electricity, which is neither good nor bad but can be used for either.   You can get by without it, but it can be used to do many many (limitless!) things you could not otherwise do - just like electricity.

A better illusion is that our desires and appetites will give us joy and satisfaction.   Yes, many are killed for money, but underneath the desire for money at the expense of others is greed and self-rightousness, and underneath that is unconsciousness of our true nature and our relationship to existance.

[kiauma]

Oops, made an edit.  []

[Van-Stolin]

Money was just invented as a way to keep track of how much you owe someone, it would have been much better if we just traded the goods outright and not have to use the money for trade, when trading something that you have you lose something in return for getting something, working for paper so that you may buy something means that you really don't lose anything and now the other guy also has to use the money that you gave him to get something in return, seems more long winded to me.  Imagines it now.  "Yes I will take some of your fruit." "Ok, well I get your cat, deal" "Deal."

[kiauma]

Theoretically, Van-Stolin, that is fine, but I think in practice it could be very unwieldy and confusing.   And besides, in modern society, who produces enough of a physical 'thing' themselves to buy, say, a car or a house?   How would you pay taxes?  How would you equate apples to oranges?   And what about people who make light bulbs for a living - or draw maps?   And how would you equate an apple grown on the coast, where cost of living is very high, with one grown in a hothouse in a desert region, where land is 'dirt cheap'?

As complex a concept money is, I think it really simplifies many things.  In any case, 'what-if' is fruitless, so to speak.  []

[jilola]

Money is an instrument designed to tally the excess of what a person or entity has. Nothing more.
It is a fiction of counting things one doesn't need but wants to display contrasted to others who don't have the same. In other words a device for boosting an ego rather than for furthering the god of oneself and humanity.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[kiauma]

My dear Jilola, surely you could live in a nice abode without an ego - but without money??  

Good luck.  []

Yes, it is a fiction of societal consent - a convenience of consensus.  It is everything, and nothing.

No, you don't need money to live - but try doing anything without it!  It sure makes everything a LOT easier.   []

[jilola]

I expected that argument.

It is tru that at the present state of affairs denoucing money would be stupid to say the least.
But given a chance for society to reform and regroup without inventing money and relying instead on communal co-operation and the kind of spiritual attitude toward life many people on these forums exhibit money would be unnecessary.

Why is it necessary to pay bits of paper for the food everyone should have if a community does what it's supposed to do? Why would someone want to stash away tokens for more food/shelter/goods thann said person is ever capable of consuming? The idea is silly but we have to live with it.

What I'd like to see the future of humanity to be is a society where the necessities of life would be given rather than earned (and the planet and humanity could easily provide that given the necessary goodwill and enlightened view of life.)
The sad thing is that mankind has a lightyear to go before the majority can think beyond their noses, let alone think about another person's nose.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[Van-Stolin]

I like you jilola, you said things much better then I could put into words.  That is exactly what I was trying to get across, money doesn't have to be a nessesity in socity, people got along great without it and the world was a beautiful place in that time, now with the econmic growth, the world is in bad shape and all becuase people wanted more money.

[Aileron]

Naiad780

I am sorry, I should have been more clear, but I didnt want my political opinions to make a mess of the topic.
To put clearly what I meant, first I should say that yes, I am American born, english speaking though with mixed blood as with all of us. Scottish/Slavic/Dutch/Cherokee.

My meaning, was that in the cliche taking of the term American, I am speaking of the patriotic proud narrow politically minded individuals. Without getting into any political debate, I mean basically any platform. Democracy itself.
When I speak of American, I mean the hypocritical division of cultures. I mean of the historical errors this nation has made in its course of growth over the years.

When I speak of a human living/born in america, I talk of those peoples of all races and cultures in and outside of the country.
I must admit it might seem a tad narrow itself in the sway of things, but I don't see as any current events going on now which make me proud to be an American, especially with the country being run the way it is, by who it is being run by.

I find it a much more beautiful thing to be proud of our global heritage, than our national heritage during todays blinding social and cultural sparks.
I shouldnt have just blatantly described my feelings of the "stereotypical" American in my own views. But they are my own.

[Wronski Feint]

I too feel the same way. Humans are terrible creatures even though there are some of us who are very nice and act no wrong there is darkeness and the ability to do evil in every heart, its just our choice not to do it.  Humans think they are above all animals just because we have "more intelligence" well we only have a supiror brain because we have no other natural defenses. We have no fur so we know to make blankets and we have no claws so we make wepons.
So yes sometimes I see no need to be human and I feel sorry for the animals and future of our race.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

quote:Originally posted by Wronski Feint

Humans think they are above all animals just because we have "more intelligence"

Humans spend most of the their time doing something they do not wish to do just so they can get those things they do want. Sit in a cubical all day doing the work of someone else. All the while animals are out in the fresh air, running around (flying, swimming), having sex, playing, etc. Hmmm who is the more intelligent creature?

[daem0n]

humans, of course

the problem is that the animals use their intelligence for their own needs, and intelligence uses humans for it's own needs

to put it simple: most people don't know what they want, and just take for granted what is sold to them (in schools, tv, books, - media, through friends, parents- society)

the disease became normal, as frank said

[gravy]

Money may be bad, but greed is good.  It motivates people to work harder, be creative, make something no one else had even thought of.  It wasn't generousity that got us where we are, it was greed.  Look at the world around you.  Compare it to the one we had 10 years ago.  Do you notice any improvements?  Everything has improved(for better or worse), and the sole reason for this was greed.  Our computers get faster every month, not because Intel wants to genuinely give us better processors, but because AMD wants our money too and we will only give it to the one with the faster processor.  Our cars perform better and get more comfortable every year.  Our beds get comfortable, our TVs get bigger, our internet gets faster and our houses get safer.  Money might be a flawed concept, but it has made my world a better place(your world might not look so good).  Just because a lot of bad things happen because of money, doesn't mean that bad things wouldn't have happened if it wasn't here.

[jilola]

The apparent reason for development and advance is greed.
But there isn't really any proof to that is there?

People would develop things just the same since having more efficient things is better than having inefficient things. Greed has nothing to do with the tendency.

If something is seen worthwhile it will be developed. Greed, however, causes companies and marketers to develop things we don't need and the want for which actual drags us down into the ego loops.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[WalkerInTheWoods]

I disagree with your idea on greed. I think the opposite actually. Greed is what causes progression to grind to a hault. It locks up political systems, having the politicians work for their own desires instead of that of the people. Companies will create products of lesser quality to increase profits. Most true advancements come about not from greed but from people who truly wish to make a difference. Those that are just in it for the money usually do not make anything very profound. Granted people with good ideas might make money off of their progress, but motive behind it is rarely money.

Money is really not a necessity, only in our current society. If we would change how we see things then we could do away with it. I actually find our money system rather limiting. As people have said, with money you can do things and make things happen, but that only lasts as long as the money lasts. If there was no money or the idea of exchanging service for payment then there would be no limits. Cancer (or any kind of) research is limited by the amount of money that is available. If there was no money system there would be no limits in our search for advancement. It would be like the Star Trek utopian idea of humans drive not being for finanical gain but for the advancement of mankind.

[kiauma]

quote:If there was no money system there would be no limits in our search for advancement.

I find this thinking kind of hard to follow.   Any research, like cancer research, is an exptremely complex activity, cutting across many many disciplines, from statistics to food to nuclear physics.  In order to be able to control and have access to so much diverse knowledge, as well as organise and maintain all the labors involved, some system of cross valuation must be devised, like money.  Money is the single point where they all cross.  This is a tremendous power, which otherwise would make an organised study impossible.

I feel the thought that the elimination of money would create a utopian society is naive, to say the least.   Sure, we would have none of the problems of money - but neither would we have any of the benefits.   In order for a society to work, there has to be a mechanism of labor cooperation.   Money is what we use, and it doesn't matter really what you used, it would be money.   Let's say you wanted to trade 'time' - an hour's worth of labor being the standard.   Well then, there must be some standard with which to compare everyone's labor, there must be some way of recording it, and there must be some way of transporting it.   The easist way to do all that would be to print 'notes' that show each division of 'labor' that you have 'earned'.   These then could be traded for other goods and services, with the difference given back to you in smaller divisions of the notes.   Sound familiar?

Money is not the problem.  And above greed, I see that people need to be aware - aware of what they are buying, what they are paying for, of what their leaders are doing and what their agenda is.

Now, in politics, I see plenty of problems!  [xx(]

[WalkerInTheWoods]

quote:Originally posted by kiauma

quote:If there was no money system there would be no limits in our search for advancement.

I find this thinking kind of hard to follow.   Any research, like cancer research, is an exptremely complex activity, cutting across many many disciplines, from statistics to food to nuclear physics.  In order to be able to control and have access to so much diverse knowledge, as well as organise and maintain all the labors involved, some system of cross valuation must be devised, like money.  Money is the single point where they all cross.  This is a tremendous power, which otherwise would make an organised study impossible.

I am sorry but I just don't understand. You are saying that it is money that is what organizes the study? I fail to understand what you are saying here.

Kiauma, you are thinking within a monetary system. I am talking about moving into a different kind of system where the basis of thought is not compensation for an individual's time. This is clearly not applicable now nor is it something that most people are ready to accept or even understand. I know that it is actually rather difficult to grasp. It took me a long time to be able to understand such a system. Current society is not ready for such a system because they/we have not been "programmed" by society to think is such terms.

Look at it like this, when you do something for fun/hobby, whatever it might be, do you think about how you are being compensated for your time or do you just do it to just do it? A similar shift in attitude/way of thinking would have to take place within society about life and work in general.

[kiauma]

No, I am not saying money 'does' anything.  Money is what makes it possible.  Money is a device - no more.

Let's go back a step further.   How were the pyramids built?   There was no money in the sense you are talking about - how did they do it?

The Pharoah was able to get the pyramids built by taking the excess labor of one group of people, food from the farmers, for example, and applying it another group of people - the artisans and laborerers that worked on the pyramids.  In exchange to the farmers he also supported armies to give them protection.   That is a vast oversimplification, but that's the basic idea.

Money is a system that does the same thing.  It enables the transfer of power (the ability to make change) from person to another.   Barter can do the same thing.

From the pyramids of Egypt to the pyramid on the dollar, it is all the same thing - a system of the exchange of labors.   Why do we have to have this cooperation in the first place?   Something I think you are overlooking - People have to eat.

I could have fun with my hobby from now till doomsday - but unless I have some means of eating, I will soon die.

For every person who does scientific or artistic work, someone somewhere has to feed that person, who otherwise is busy with other things besides survival.   Why should a person labor all day producing food, then give it to someone else who plays with his hobby all day and produces nothing?

That is the cooperation pioneered on such an industrious scale by the Pharoahs.  It is a system of exchange of labors which benefits everyone - and today the mechanism of this is money.

No thinking inside a monetary system is required, or shift in attitude/programmed way of thinking.   Simply devise a way to exchange labors to support whatever activity that otherwise could not survive without it.   That is really what it is all about - transcending the demand of life that we work simply to maintain our existance.  If you can beat that - which is what the Pharoahs did, and money helps us with - then you have beaten a major obstacle to transcending our mere physical existance.

If you have a better way, I would love to hear it - but something tells me it would still depend on the labors of some people supporting the activities of other people for mutual benefit - an exchange.  []

[WalkerInTheWoods]

Ok, I got what you are saying now. []

I guess my point is, while in current systems people keep track, so that one hour of my time is worth some amount of money which can be worth so much milk and eggs. The moneyless system would not keep track and all things would be available to all. So you would not have to worry about eating because food would be there for you, assuming no major disasters. Though that would be in a "perfect" world, which this one does not seem to be set up that way. Humans would have to evolve spiritually for such a system to work.

[kiauma]

And yes, I understand what you are saying too, and yes, humans would need to evolve for that to work.

The difficulty is fairness.  WHat is fair to one person now may not seem fair to another.  If people only took what they needed, and others trusted others to only take what they needed, that would work, but what of when someone took more than someone else?  Who defines fair?  WHo defines greed?  

The use of money sets standards for what labor is worth, and is a measurable quantity to compare what one gets against another.  In this way it addresses the problem - though as you have noted it doesn't solve it completely!   Recently, obesity was declared a disease in the USA - a 'disease' that no one in a third world country will ever have to worry about getting!  [xx(]

No, it is not entirely fair, but so far the socialist experiments in teh world have also been a dismal failure, again becasue of human greed.

[narfellus]

quote:Originally posted by jilola



What I'd like to see the future of humanity to be is a society where the necessities of life would be given rather than earned (and the planet and humanity could easily provide that given the necessary goodwill and enlightened view of life.)
The sad thing is that mankind has a lightyear to go before the majority can think beyond their noses, let alone think about another person's nose.

I agree with this jiola. Given the current trend and direction of human spiritual evolution, and the gifts from our brothers and sisters of the cosmos who have been where we are now and made it beyond, we have much to look forward to. Their evolved societies work quite efficiently without money. It WOULD be in the best interest of our planet to forgo wealth and concentrate on supporting the needs of every human on the planet, and the planet's needs herself! But, as we know, we are nowhere near having this kind of global cohesion yet. In our dreams and imagination it exists, and that is a powerful place nonetheless. We'll just keep the goal firm in our will and dreams.

[Wronski Feint]

I didnt mean to sound like a anmimal activist or anything thats just one of many reasons why humans are evil. Not all aspects of humanity is bad but alot is. And unlike some of you think we will never be more than human, because thats what we are, there is nothing you can do.  Telekinesis, astral projection dosent make you  better, because they are human abilities.  So rather than get all depressed over it just try and be a better/good person.

[gravy]

If money is a calculation of the excess food a person has, then it's a good system.  The only reason humans are ruling and wasting this planet is because we don't all have to worry about the crops.  Would you rather live in a world where money didn't exsist, but neither did others to grow your food?  Would you like to wake up at 4 am every morning, shovel bull crap for an hour, then take them out to plough the fields till noon, feed the bulls, dig up irrigation tunnels till you collapse?  Or would you rather go down to the supermarket and pay a few bucks for your food.  And get this, if everyone's busy growing their own food, no one is making any time for technological advancement.  We would end up doing the same thing everyday for 1000's of years until someone finally went and invented money.  Wanna know how I know this?  Because this is how it all started in the first place.  You can either be thankful that the money system is there, or you can hitch a ride the next time they want to do a survivor show.

[beavis]

Wronski: Telekinesis, astral projection dosent make you better, because they are human abilities.

Then when astral projecting, everybody else you see must also be human. Obviously not to anybody who has done it.