Do Christians Really worship a Volcano?

[Ryuji]

heavy reading for such awesome Monday morning, but interesting

Peace and love
Ryu

[MisterJingo]

Mustardseed-

I am not a Christian, therefore, God must be absent in my life.  

Nick-

This guy prided himself that Christianity was logical, and that he could sit down with me, using reason, and prove Christianity worked. I decided the best way to get this over quickly was to go for the jugular. No Risen Savior, no Christianity.

I knew full well most Christians will reject things like historical evidence saying haughily "If it's not in the Bible I don't believe it!" (The irony being they have no idea what's in their Bible.) So, I took him through the four gosples book by book, account by account. Proving they would not hold up as evidence in any court.

(Here is but a small sampler of what I showed him.)

WHO CARRIED THE CROSS?

-Mark 15:21 Simon of Cyrene. (Matt 27:32 and Luke 23:26 agree with Mark) Simon carried it, by himself.
-John 19:17 says "JESUS himself carried the cross."
(No where does it say the cross was carried by both men. According to the gospel, it is either one or the other.)

DID EITHER OF THE TWO THIEVES BELIEVE JESUS?

-Matt 27:44 says niether one believes
-Mark 15:32 niether one believes
-Luke 23:39-41 one does not, but one DOES
(only one gospel out of four has the famous conversion story)

HOW LONG WAS JESUS IN THE TOMB?

(remember jews count days from sundown to sundown)
-Matt 28:1 Three days and two nights
-Mark 16:2 Three days and two nights
-Luke 24:1 Three days and two nights
-John 20:1 Two days and two nights

*WHY IS HIS TIME IN THE TOMB SO IMPORTANT?*
Because it means he was not the true Messiah.

In Matt 12:38-40 he said he would remain in the tomb for THREE days and THREE nights, and that would be the sign he was the true messiah. Jesus did not fullfill his own prophecy.

IS MARY PERMITTED TO TOUCH JESUS AFTER THE RESURRECTION?

-Luke 24:39 Yes "Behold my hands and feet..handle me and see."
-John 20:17 No "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my father."

WHO WAS AT THE TOMB, AND WHAT DID THEY SEE WHEN THEY GOT THERE?

-Matt 28 Mary Magdalene and the other Mary saw one angel.
-Mark 16 Mary Magdalene, Mary mother of James, and Salome saw a young man in white.
-Luke 24 Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the other women that were with them saw two men in shining garments
-John 20 Mary Magdalene saw two angels in white.

WHERE DID THE DISCIPLES MEET THE RESURRECTED JESUS

-Matt 28:6-7 "Galilee"
-Luke 2433-36 "Jerusalem"
(They are about seventy five miles apart)

HOW MANY DISCIPLES DID JESUS HAVE?

-MARK 3:16-19 THIRTEEN
(Simon/Peter, Andreas/Nester, Iakobos bar zebedaios, Ioannes bar zebedaios, phillippos, thomas, judas the iskariot, bar Tholomaios, maththaios, lewis bar halphaios, iakobos bar halphaios, thaddaios, Simon the Kananite zealot)
-MATTHEW 10:2-4 TWELVE
(Simon/Peter, Andreas/Nester, Iakobos bar zebedaios, Ioannes bar zebedaios, phillippos, thomas, judas the iskariot, bar Tholomaios, maththaios the tax collector, iakobos bar halphaios, lebbaios thaddaios, simon the Kananite zealot)
-LUKE 6:13-16 THIRTEEN
(Simon/Peter, Andreas/Nester, Iakobos bar zebedaios, Ioannes bar zebedaios, phillippos, thomas, judas the iskariot, bar Tholomaios, maththaios, lewis the tax collector, iakobos bar halphaios, judus bar Iakobos, simon the Kananite zealot)
-JOHN only mentions NINE
(Simon/Peter, Andreas/Nester, Iakobos bar zebedaios, Ioannes bar zebedaios, phillippos, thomas the twin, judas bar simon the iskariot,
Ioudas, Nathanael of Kana)

*Note: All together we have the names of FIFTEEN different men!

JESUS NEVER ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN

After that, I pointed out the so called "Assuption of Christ," rising into the clouds, is a footnote blocked off with a bracket, with a disclaimer at the bottom clearly stating the verse should not be there, but was added.

That's why the New American Standard, the New International Version, and the New Revised Standard Version never even mention the assumption of Christ, at all.

Seeing he had his faith based around a footnote, he crumbled.

My friend had read the Bible cover to cover, four times. He had been to Bible college. He thought he knew the book, and yet had never before noticed the contradictions. He had read it, but not with his eyes open.


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I'm not a christian either (I follow no faith or religion), but i'd just like to say if some minor discrepancies such as these turned your friend from a devout christian to a pagan, he was either very fickle or was thinking of changing faith anyway surely?
I mean, anyone with even a rudimentary grasp of history can look back and see how the Christian religion  was changed and constructed, absorbing other festivals where needed to entice otherwise pagans into their fold.
I'd be interested if you could point to a singular religion/faith which hasn't absorbed belief or ideas from other or earlier practices.

Edit: I'd just like to add, scan these forums and any other forum based upon AP and just take note of the solid belief shown for spiritual ideas and structures surroundeing the astral - each of these have a huge amount less evidence form them than even Christianity - yet that belief is unwavering and if you try and question it you usually get shouted down.
I know this is deviating from the topic slightly, but in the end religious and spiritual belief is based on faith.

[Stookie]

Many Christians find true inner strength from a higher source, whether it's Jesus or not. Maybe it's their higher-self or something represented as Jesus. Not everyone has the ability to see through the physical world, and those people need faith. No matter what the religion, it is faith in something that can't be seen. But it can still be experienced. It's the people living by the "rules" instead of listening to their heart that give Christianity and other organized religions a bad name.

I'm not trying to defend a particular faith, but defend people who experience something beyond themselves in the physical world. If a Christian can be turned into a Pagan through one conversation, he didn't have the inner experience a true Christian would. Just because it's not all correct, dosen't mean it's all crap.

[Ryuji]

Stookie

Not everyone has the ability to see through the physical world, and those people need faith

i would venture and say that those are the 'young' souls, had an open mind then was schooled into mental imprisonment, not ready to 'see through' or has chosen for this life to be devoted to some religion.

true that all in bible inst crap - there is some good values one can take but not as lived as black and white.

MisterJingo

-> moving further away from topic hehe

I'm not a christian either (I follow no faith or religion), but I'd just like to say if some minor discrepancies such as these turned your friend from a devout christian to a pagan, he was either very fickle or was thinking of changing faith anyway surely?

i for one it was more than just the discrepancies. i was started to get a feeling that not all was as it seems and started to look at other religions and systems. iv'ed changed from my 'born into religion' to a free open minded spirit and enjoy life allot more than being ruled over by some book and priest

Strangely it was the research into other religions and systems that
made me more aware and understanding (wanting to learn more about) of God/Goddess, Angels, Guides, afterlife etc etc.

Mustardseed

1 John 4:8 - He that loves not knoweth not God; for God is love. (that would mean = he that loves knows god for God is love)

that's why i noted the differences between the OT and NT deities was bit strange for me that god can be jealous and not jealous at same time but unchanging.

NT
I Corinthians 13:4 - love is not jealous

OT
Exodus 20:5 for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God
Malachi 3:6 I the LORD do not change.

Leyla
looks like volcano is out of the window for this topic  
anyways it is something to think about - the booming voice, fire and mountain climbing...

Peace and love
Ryu

[MisterJingo]

i for one it was more than just the discrepancies. i was started to get a feeling that not all was as it seems and started to look at other religions and systems. iv'ed changed from my 'born into religion' to a free open minded spirit and enjoy life allot more than being ruled over by some book and priest

Strangely it was the research into other religions and systems that
made me more aware and understanding (wanting to learn more about) of God/Goddess, Angels, Guides, afterlife etc etc.

What I meant was that every religion can be either traced back to an earlier religion or series of religions/movements etc. The inconsistencies given above could simply be passed off as the failings of man, or mans memory, or even exaggeration of man. They don't on the whole tear down any religion, and if any religion is looked into deeply enough, such inconsistencies will occur (perhaps natural for any body of knowledge which has been translated and retranslated over thousands of years?)

I'm all for people looking into new areas and ideas, but I think we must keep in mind that believing in astral doctrines (7 planes, 7 bodies etc) and angels, Gods, Goddesses, reincarnation etc is that their basis are the same as that of the religion you moved from - the mouth of man.

Have a look through these forums and see the number of ideas and doctrines followed unwaveringly - how does that differ from a Christian (or person of another faith) following their beliefs unwaveringly? Some might say they are open to others views, but simply go to the psychic attack threads and see the attacks against anyone who dares mouth a word from the norm.
One might argue that we can experience the astral and find the truth of such ideas. But if one is clear enough of mind, they see that ideas shape the astral so we find what we expect. And if we expect arch angels and such deities we find them. If we expect aliens or Atlantians, we find them. This means that having any expectations of the astral will generally have those expectations met. This doesn't give truth to the beliefs which spawned them, just truth the fact the astral is malleable and we will find what we seek. A great way to see this in action is to look at the views and philosophies of all major AP Gurus and proponents. These people have dedicated lifetimes to studying the exact same locales, and yet their experiences are so radically different it's hard to find common ground between them. Well generally there is a common ground between most, which state the astral is deeply affected by belief and expectation.

To summarise: I just don't see the difference between following one faith or another (and the beliefs we attach to OBEs are pure faith too).

I agree that the volcano theory is an interesting possibility. But to judge the current state of a religion by 2000 year old ideas, or the views of a small minority in a certain locality is to be short-sighted.  Religions evolve like anything else, and no doubt in the far future when some new religion is dominant, we shall find traces of Christianity or other major world religions at its heart.
Also, if we see that energy follows thought in the astral, the sheer number of believers in the current Christian faith would have moulded such a God somewhere in some astral locale surely?

[MisterJingo]

Edit: I'd just like to add that I think every kind of questioning is important, including the questioning in this thread. I just butted my nose in because it seemed certain posters had a anti-christian agenda (more than a desire to explore this matter) and that would change any conclusions reached.

[Leyla]

MS- it was you who said god was seemingly absent from my life and had left me. Hense the eye rolling.

Mr Jingo-  Few minor discrepancies? One conversation? No, This took days. I showed him many discrepancies, more than the handfull I listed.

He was as serious hard core fundamentalist Christian as they come. Remember, he went to bible college. He was a missionary. He set out to convert me. This made him fair game.

These bombshells were hardly minor. The Tomb discrepancy alone is enough to prove Jesus was not the true messiah.

The burial story is itself a fraud. Roman writers got very little right. Such as, why a Jew, and a "holy man" at that, would be slathered in 100lbs. of creams and spices in the tomb, when Hebrew law this is forbidden.

I sat there and made him call a Jewish funeral home in the phone book and ask. After he read aloud the verse about Jesus being entombed "As is the custom of the Jews" the Rabbi replied "That is a lie! That is NOT our custom, and has NEVER been our custom!"

The Rabbi explained from the days of Moses, Jewish law commands that a man should be buried in the ground, in a plain box back to the earth. Ashes to ashes and dust to dust. You are not to perserve a body in any way. To put spice and oil and perfume on a corpse is considered blasphemous. Jesus's friends and family would have fought to the death to prevent it from being done. The writer of the fake burial story is ignorant of Jewish ways and is given away as being a Roman.

Also, with the Bible dictionary I as able to prove to him Jesus never said he was God.

"The MESSIAH" & CHRIST
Messiah from Hebrew Masiah & Aramaic Meshina, is literally expected king and deliverer of the Jews, not the son of Yahweh/God! Christ is from the Greek Christos. literally meaning, anointed. Every single Jewish king was a "Christ" it simply meant annointed. A new king was anointed with oil at his coronation.

It does not mean "son of God". The Messiah was NOT supposed to be God, only a really great hero-priest-King. They wanted a hero/rebel to lead the rebellion against Rome.(deleted from Bible by Roman writers, although traces remain) It should be noted that "THE Messiah" is different from "Messiah" which is the Hebrew word that we get the Greek "Christos" from. They mean the same thing. Yep, "David" was a messiah too.

JESUS WAS "VOTED" A GOD IN 325CE.
Like in most of Christianity; a bunch of old Roman politicians took votes to determine the course of the new religion. Yeshua was voted a God, rather than a prophet at the council of Nicea in 325C.E. he was de-deified and re-deified twice and was a god permanently in 380, this was about politics. Yeshua never thought he was God.

JESUS DENIES HE IS GOD
Apparently the council of Nicea missed this one. "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one and that is God." And again, "Why callest thou me good? None is good, save one, and that is God." (Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19)
When questioned on this verse, one Christian actually told me: "Jesus Lied."

BUT JESUS TALKS ABOUT BEING GOD IN THE BIBLE!
Well lets take a look, shall we?

BAR-NASHA - Jesus called himself "bar nasha" "son of man" 28 times. It means in the three Semitic languages "a human being"

BAR-DALAHA - "Son of God" (oh, oh, they got us here huh? -nah) In the Aramaic-Semitic language "bar-dalaha", "God's son", "God's child" is used many ways and may refer to an orphan, peacemaker, etc. You see it must be understood that the term "bar" does not mean "son" in a literal way it refers to a likeness, and a special relationship. Never in Hebrew scripture or in the New Testament does it refer to a physical relationship. Easterners will use the term "son" as like saying "beloved" [the very idea of a actual sonship from God was seen as blasphemy to Jews, but not to Romans, hmmm]

EHEDAYA- "the only begotten son" (lest they throw this at ya, here it is) Jesus never claimed to be God's only son, that claim was made by others, and found only in the Gospel of John. John has it as a translation of the Greek "monogenes" which is two words, singular and kind, when put together mean "one of a kind" I don't want to get into the breaking down of the Greek, suffice to say, it is an improper translation. A better rendering would be "unique son". It does not even come close to meaning what Christians think it means.

Also, MrJingo, I don't believe in the Astral like a christian belives, due to "faith" I believe in it because I experience it for myself. Firsthand.

[Ryuji]

Leyla - seems u know lot bout jewish stuff hence your upbrining. what also suprised me when i was studying magick was the fact that the The Lesser Ritual of Banishment and the cabalistic cross was preformed by a jewish rabi.

strange then that in bible magick was forbidden...

Peace and love
Ryu

[Leyla]

Jews don't believe in the existance of Hell or the Devil. But try telling that to a Christian.

My friend didn't believe it either, until I made him talk to the  Rabbi, who backed up everything I had already told him.

[Mustardseed]

Hi Leyla
Well ........ha how do I say it. I guess I have to be honest with you. In the course of our conversation I have not really felt we connected, not even on an reasonable level. Most of what I said has been twisted and it is becoming clearer to me that you are not actually interested in a respectfull debate but find debunking through slander and name calling a better way. So have it your way Leyla. To me my dear you are just proving my point, a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. You seem to adhere to Wicca and most likely very anti Christian in your approach to life. ( besides not being Bangladeshi) That is not a problem for me, but I personally do not share your opinion. Is that OK with you...........without abuse:-) you seem biased bitter and almost vengeful, but what do I know I am a Christian .....by definition, (your definition) I am a deluded and manipulating individual.

I wish you all the best in life, as much as you allow yourself to enjoy.

Regards Mustardseed

[Leyla]

Mustardseed-

I thought it was against Christian prinicpals to lie. Yes, I am calling you out as a liar.  I have not slandared or name-called you.

Your fight is not with me. You were taught certain Biblical misinterpritations. Take it up with your parents, or your pastor.

I am not to blame for the fact that Jesus never said he was God, or that Jews don't bury their dead in a tomb.

This is a classic case of "Killing the messenger."

[Mustardseed]

Mustardseed-

I thought it was against Christian prinicpals to lie. Yes, I am calling you out as a liar.  I have not slandared or name-called you.

Your fight is not with me. You were taught certain Biblical misinterpritations. Take it up with your parents, or your pastor.

I am not to blame for the fact that Jesus never said he was God, or that Jews don't bury their dead in a tomb.

This is a classic case of "Killing the messenger."

Come on Leyla In this conversation you are the aggressor.  I don't want to fight you. I have no problem talking to you but for you to call me a liar is not fair, it is by definition slander. I may be misinformed but lying indicates one knows the truth and are omitting it, it is not just having an opinion that is not shared by others.

About what I have been taught you have absolutely no idea. You do not know me at all, but assume that I am the run off the mill Christian that you are used to encountering. Assumptions are not necessarily truths, at least not till they have been confirmed, and this one is wrong.

Actually you assume too much, I have no pastor and my parents......that was a good one. Ha.

It just blows my mind how good you are at this little game. You know just what buttons to push, just like my teenagers you have perfected the art of arguing, without learning anything, it appears that for you winning means a lot. Proving your opponent wrong and shooting his arguments full of holes gives satisfaction to your ego. It is my opinion that such a attitude on a long term is detrimental to a person, in other words it might come back and bite you in the butt. Just friendly advice.

Regards Mustardseed

[Mustardseed]

PS It is a possibility that I would actually have something to add to your "knowledge bank" Leyla, facts maybe ideas or new understandings and viewpoints. Maybe to you it does not seem likely but still it is a possibility you cannot deny.........right.

That is .............Unless you have made up your mind that you know all there is to know, and that you have the full picture. This is what I find so interesting, you seem to be a very well read person and quite intelligent as well, why would you not want to learn more and explore other points of view........I can only assume that you think you know it all.

[Leyla]

Mustardseed-

Nobody is forcing information on you. This post is not entitled "Mustardseed, please read." Yet, you keep clicking this topic and reading it of your own free will. Why you do it is beyond me. Nobody else here is upset by the information.

Secondly, you have invited me into a conversation. Repeatedly, you have insisted you want to have a discussion, telling me you had things to teach me, and so on. Nobody is stopping you, yet you haven't discussed one single thing, except how awful I am for posting my research.

[Mustardseed]

Changed my mind

[NickJW]

It dosen't matter if Leyla slanders you or is aggressive or whatever. She has DISPROVEN the NT, and the fact of the matter is that no matter what you believe, the New Testament is a forgery and that is truth.

[Leyla]

But that's just it, I've barely spoken two sentences to Mustardseed directly. Neither being slanderous nor aggressive.  All my posts have been directed to the group.

He just jumps in every now and then to shout that God has abandoned me and I am cursed to live a miserable life of suffering, or some such nonsense.  

I have asked him to please share this information he claims to have, but he'd rather just vanish. I am left to assume he was bluffing all along.

[Ryuji]

so Leyla we going to have a nice e-book with the whole vulcano stuff in it and other research material... would be nice  

Blessings,
Ryu

[NickJW]

Once again, a contradiction by Mustardseed. He told Leyla to view it from another's point of view. Obviously judging from Leyla's past expereinces with Christianity, she has seen it from the other side and dosen't buy Christianity's garbage.

[Nay]

Ya'll stop acting like a pack of wild dogs attacking someone.

Thread locked.