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Can you give me any tips on how to leave this imagery and explore elsewhere?

Remember, this is all thought-driven. When I phase to other areas from within a dream, I simply think of it. So if I wanted to visit a friend, I focus solely on them. After a few moments, I perceive the surroundings dropping away from me slightly and everything whizzing past in a blur. Then a few moments later everything stabilizes. When I look around the person on whom I was focusing is nearby.

If it's a place you want to visit, it's the same procedure. Just focus on the place to the exclusion of all else.

The last part of the process is critical however -- "focus to the exclusion of all else." When the surroundings start whipping past, it's not uncommon to glance at them to see what it is. As soon as you do, you've lost your focus and you'll 'drop' wherever it was you looked at. This is where concentration is critical. It's not a big deal if it happens. Simply re-focus your thoughts and do it  again. But sometimes when it happens, especially if you're just starting out, you can get frustrated or confused by what happened and then you wake up. So, I find it's best to avoid that if possible.

This is just how I do it, I'm sure there are many other methods out there.

The problem with drugs is abuse, not the drug itself. The reason we blame the drug is because we're too immature to accept responsibility for our own self-inflicted bad habits.

I agree. Our society has pathetically become an enabler. Nothing is ever your fault. The blame always lay somewhere else. Self-control is a serious issue today. I think a large part of that is the sensory-overloaded environment in which we live, bundled with the lack of responsibility inherent in our culture.  What happened to the days when people held to the saying "the buck stops here?"

Of course, all of this exists in our current age of 'immediate gratification'. People have become so used to getting what they want, when they want it, they don't have an appreciation for patience and waiting. They don't really understand what it means to work at something to achieve it. There's a sense of satisfaction in doing something well and worthwhile that is lacking in most people's lives.

Sorry, I digress a bit off-topic. Many will probably take issue with this, and that's fine.These are only my opinions so you are free to agree or disagree.

As for alcohol and tobacoo, I actually consider then to be drugs as well. For the most part, I simply don't take anything. I've never done drugs, never smoked and my alcohol intake is limited to a glass of wine with dinner a few times/year. If I need anything, I use vitamins and herbs (feverfew is wonderful for migraines by the way, and a bunch of vitamin C taken at the first signs of a cold tend to eliminate the cold).

I think natural substances need the most attention. I suppose the radical idea I'm advocating here is that these plants haven't simply evolved to keep the soil from eroding.

As I mentioned in my last post, I think 'serious-minded' individuals who need to 'jump-start' their experiences turn to drugs. And I can understand their rationale. Some people need that bit of help. I only caution on becoming reliant on the help, because I think that road leads to dependence and abuse. If you need to use it, do it once or twice, but then work on achieving results without them. I, personally, value independence. Anytime I feel the need to say or think "man, I need..." whatever it is, that raises a flag in my mind. At that point, I simply stop using whatever it is. Hence, I haven't had any caffeine in over 4 years.

Regardless, as I've mentioned, you are not alone here on this viewpoint. Many people advocate the use of drugs for these purposes. I don't chime in vary often because I think I tend to be in the minority, but as we came to the topic in a round-about way, I went ahead with my views on this topic.

If you take drugs and they work for you, that's great (and I mean that). Just make sure they don't ruin what you've accomplished would be my only warning.

Correct. Awareness isn't a linear progression. It fluctuates randomly in stops and starts. One can have a fully lucid experience, wake up and then try again only to flail in a dream unable to 'wake up' mentally.

The only consistent thing I've noticed is that the quality, quantity and duration of these experiences improves greatly not only with meditation, but with a continual practice of mindfullness. Even if you only try it once/day, this effort pays off when phasing or OBE'ing.

Years of meditation and spiritual development seem a big ask for something that's supposed to be 'natural'.

Ah, but isn't that exactly what we as a society have done to make it unnatural? We spend most, if not all, of our lives so engrossed in the outside world and the immediate gratification that's available to us everywhere we turn, that we lose our ability to do this one simple thing. In that case, is it really so much to ask for a few measly years to de-program ourselves? 

hehe....I used the word 'drugs' because I got tired of writing out psychodelics and hallucinegens. But I agree that I don't like it for ambiguity reasons. I had a fleeting thought that would cause problems, but was tired and wanted to get my thoughts down quickly. So concede everything related to that word! 

Well aware of the history of peyote and other similar substances used the world over. I think there are several differences between what was used and the way it was used by these people and what happened in the 60's and 70's. I think the native people use the drug (using the word purely for brevity here, nothing more) in a structured, disciplined setting. There is guidance in it's use. Their are precautions to make sure it is done safely. Again, I've never done this, it's just what I understand based on what I've read.

The hippies, however, used it more as a form of escapism. Yes, there was interest in 'freeing the mind' but it was done in conditions that were more geared to physical/instant gratification. I think it was a situation of the blind leading the blind. I think that's when the abuse of the drugs became mainstream, but this is just a thought of mine -- nothing I read about.

Regardless of the history of these uses throughout history, I have always been of the opinion that they not only are not necessary to achieve the goals for which they are used, but I think they are counterproductive to it. I think anything that muddles the mind makes it difficult to impossible to experience things with a clear awareness. And that, for me, is the goal of all of this. Again, these are just my thoughts on it and many here disagree. I know many use/have used drugs to 'jump start' their experiences. I simply think that this is a short-cut to take along the path and dependending upon how much 'jump-starting' you do, could actually hamper your ability to do this without drugs.  All of this is my opinion, of course.   

I don't know if I like all these percentages of consciousness 

How can it be quantified?

-AM

That's just it. You can't scientifically quantify it like this. However, the concept, based on my experience, is correct. The 'concept' being that the awareness you achieve during these experiences is a variable. And that you can usually categorize each experiences based on the level of lucidity you achieve within each one.

Their relationship with the plants and unique knowledge or understanding of nature stemmed down from visions. The visionary experiences were provided by natural hallucinegens. This is where the religion began.

I had to do some research on this for a school project years and years ago, so it is quite possible I've forgotten this. But I honestly don't remember ever reading a link between witchcraft and hallucinegens. My understanding is that witchcraft was formed from pagan beliefs worshipping the earth and nature. I'll concede that hallucinegens were probably used to some extent. Many native peoples the world over have done similar things. However, I've never read that as being the core of their practice or that it was done with any type of regularity.

I did a few quick searches this morning after reading your post (several on Encyclopedia Brittanica's site) and not a single mention was made regarding drugs. Quite a bit was written about herbs, potions, amulets, etc, which most people associate to it.

As for gaining their knowledge, I would expect that they learned what the herbs did through trial and error as well as learning from others. Just like scientists create new medicines through trial and error. They build on what they know and try new stuff out to see what works and how it works. Again, I could be wrong, but that was what I understood.

Can you tell me where you read this? I'm a bit curious now.

[Awakened_Mind wrote:]

My original post was a brief one-liner, and obviously wasn't very clear. Now that I read what Awakened_Mind and MS wrote, we are all saying the same thing (I think), but simply getting hung up on word definitions (fact vs truth).

Awakened_Mind wrote:

'Truth' is synonymus with 'real'. We don't necessarily know what is true and/or real. So begins how subjectivity. What we consider to be real and/or true.

Musterseed wrote:

There is such a thing as truth. The universe is made or evolved or a bit of both, but it is here so it came to be by some process.....that is the truth, even if it is only a fiction in our mind.......still that then is the truth.

If I understand you both, we are saying the same thing. Let me give you 'my' definitions (this will illustrate where I'm coming from, I think). Truth and reality are individual perceptions. Thus they vary with the individual. A fact is an objective, concrete thing or idea that truths and realities are molded around.

I'll try and give a religous example since this post is about religion.

We are all having experiences in a world in which we interact with one another. I consider that a fact. Surrounding this fact are many theories. And to MS's point, many people consider their theories to be truth.

To some, the truth is that this world is all that there is. This, to them, is beyond belief because they cannot 'prove' anything else exists. And what scientific proof does exist, implies that anything beyond physical experiences (those occurring in this world) are illusions fabricated by the mind and thus not real. So their truth is that we have one life and that is all that exists. That is the 'truth.'

Others have experiences beyond physical reality and know that it is real. They know the truth of what they experience. This is not belief, this is a deep knowing. To them it is clearly true. I lump a majority of the new age books into this category. People do some reading/research into metaphysics, form some concepts around something and then have experiences that they see as justifiying those concepts. They have now discovered The Truth.

Others find truth in words spoken or written by other people and belief so deeply that it becomes true for them. A good example would be to look at any radical fundamentalist, regardless of religion. They know the truth, beyond a shadow of a doubt. They can prove their truth, even if most people disagree with their proof.

Awakened_Mind wrote:

I've always liked the idea that truth is not something that evades, but which we are evolving toward.

Exactly. That's what I meant when I said "It becomes valid if you 'outgrow' that truth." I meant that as we evolve, our perception of what is true/real changes. I do agree that I think at the core, there is one truth. And that is the one to which we gravitate as we cast aside the old truths that no longer fit us. Whether that 'core truth' is even remotely close to any theories currently floating around is a seperate issue altogether. For this reason, I interpret the word 'truth' as it is used today to be a variable that changes with each person's perception. 

Does that make sense? 

Witchcraft was actually women practicing with the use of psychedelic substances.

Umm..not quite. Witchcraft is typically lumped into two categories, polarities of each other. It was a practice of using/worshipping nature in terms of herbs and plants as well as astronomical/seasonal changes.

The one group practiced for the benefit of others (as in midwives, healers, etc). The other group was supposed to use their knowledge for malevent ends (demons, hexes and so forth). Energy use was also attributed to their practices if I remember correctly, albeit not to the extent that yoga, tai chi or other energy based systems use.

The use of psychedelic substances may have been among their practice, but that was only one small aspect of it.

What if you discard a truth because you don't like it?

It becomes valid if you 'outgrown' that truth. Truth and fact are different. I think truth is subjective and therefore open to change depending upon the individual.

I moved this topic here, as it didn't really fit in Astral Consciousness.

This topic has been moved to Welcome to Astral Chat!.

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/index.php?topic=26815.0

People tend to get too hung up on symptoms and miss the objective. I think that's one of the negative side effects of reading too much before trying something yourself. I've never gotten vibrations and I have OBE'd and phased more times than I can count.

Another problem with focusing on signs/symptoms is that you become so obsessed with those small 'targets' that if/when they come, you get too excited and blow your mental state -- thus taking you back to square 1 to start again.

Experiences vary for everyone, so instead of trying to reach a symptom, try to reach your goal. Everything else should fade away in your awareness until its only your awareness that's left. The rest is somewhat 'downhill' from there.

You can still see the movie -- what he's referencing isn't in movie 5. Although I would highly recommend the books. The movies are good, but, as is usually the case, the books are much better.

I communicate with anyone/anything that interests me. Half the time, they are simply dream fragments my mind made up and thus don't really say or do much. But I have spoken with seperate beings as well. They have their own personalities. Just start by going up and saying "hi" and see how they respond. I've never had a being I spoke with 'hang around' me though. So I think that was probably someone projecting that belief/fear and that's what they experienced.

The only way to tell is give it a try!

I've experienced this a few times, but not too often. When I do, however, I sense my way around. Its almost like sonar with dolphins or bats I think (can't say for sure as I'm not a dolphin or bat), but essentially I can 'feel' my surroundings and I get a visual image in my brain -- but it isn't from seeing the surroundings. I have no idea how else to explain this. But it is distinctly different from visual sight of the surroundings. And if I end up blind, I find that by using my sense to get around and do whatever I want to do, eventually my sight comes. My guess, and its only that, is that sight tends to be the last sense for me that is enabled. Not sure why. It could be that my awareness isn't sharp enough, or that it's too sharp. When I experience this, it is during the beginning of the experience. And at those times, I'm too aware of the fact that I've just phased somewhere. But as my awareness focuses totally on my surroundings and I forget about the phasing, my vision kicks in. That's why, at least for me, it seems to be linked to my awareness still being too focused on physical/phasing process.

Novice, can you give me more info on the hypnogagic images, and did you ever had the feeling that you could feel whatever you wanted to feel, without using stimulants, but maybe close to the gargoyle incident?

hehe...I can simulate feelings a few different ways and to varying degrees. I'll explain a few of my experiences and see if these come close to what you are asking -- I think they do. Regarding your caveat -- experiences without stimulants, as I mentioned earlier, I've never done drugs. I also rarely drink alcohol (may have a glass of wine with dinner once or twice year) and I stopped drinking caffeine several years ago. So all of the experiences I will relate have been completely without any type of external chemical stimulus.

First, regarding hypnagogic images (I spelled it incorrectly in my original post -- sorry), you can find a lot of info on this topic of you google it. Steven LaBerge's website ( http://www.lucidity.com/) would probably be a good place to start, as he's done a LOT of research on the dream state, specifically lucid dreaming. 

A scientific definition for them is as follows:

Hypnagogic hallucination is episodes of seeing and hearing things as one is falling asleep. These dreams can be frightening and can often cause a sudden jerk and arousal just before sleep onset. For example, you may see yourself falling and awaken with a sudden jerk, just before impact. As the subject drifts off to sleep, he/she moves into a state that 
combines the environment, of which the subject is still partially aware, with a dream-like state of sleep, in which he might see people and hear them talking. The experiences are often frightening. Sleep deprivation, irregular sleep schedules, and medications all can predispose to occurrences of this phenomenon.

Hypnagogic hallucinations can occur at sleep onset, either during daytime sleep episodes or at night. They are usually quite vivid, and often involve vision. The visual hallucinations usually consist of simple forms – colored circles or parts of objects – that are constant or changing in size. People may also see the image of an animal or a person, and are more often in color. Auditory hallucinations are also common, but other senses are seldom involved. Hypnagogic hallucinations are dreams that intrude on wakefulness, which can cause visual, auditory, or touchable sensations. They occur between waking and sleeping, usually at the onset of sleep, and can also occur about 30 seconds after a cataleptic attack. Hypnagogic hallucinations are a feature of narcolepsy.

That should give you some info to chew on regarding hypna's.

As for being able to feel whatever you want to feel, I can do this in two ways. First, I can (to varying degrees of success) feel what it's like to be a tree, or a rock, or a spoon, or whatever object you choose. My success is related to my ability to remain focused -- an non-faultering concentration on the object. Somehow, not sure how, if I do it right, I find myself 'slip' into the object. As soon as I begin to think about what I'm doing, I lose the connection and find my mind back in my body again. This is completely different from an OBE. I'm not sure what this is called, but its fun to do when I have time.

The second way I do this is within my mind. I can phase my consciousness/awareness/mind/whatever you want to call it, to something else and there I can be and experience whatever I want. Now, I'm well aware of your views on this scenario, so you don't need to comment on them. I'm merely providing them as an example to your question.

As for your gargoyle experience, there have been a few times, while meditating, where I will find images or words flash in my mind (always related to whatever it is I'm meditating on at the time). However, once, I was fairly deep in meditation and suddenly found myself in a scene with a lion off in the distance. The scene was extremely vivid in color and detail. I could see the high tan grass of the savannah swaying in the wind, watch the lion's mane flutter as well. The lion was lounging in the shade under a few tall trees, eyes lazily scanning the horizon. I was calmly watching, not thinking much of it, until the lion's eyes turned and stared right into mine. My physical eyes immediatly flew open and I quickly jerked around fully expecting a lion to be lying nearby. Ridiculous I know, but that was how real it was. I was completely awake at the time as well -- and sitting in a half lotus position, so it wasn't like my mind or body had fallen asleep.

Not sure if you gained any insight from my experiences, but hopefully something here helped.

For more immediate responses from Adrian, you should probably post these questions on OUR forum:

http://www.ourultimatereality.com/forums/

Is this buzzing only a noise or is it a feeling as well?

I've never done drugs, so I can't speak to any experiences you have while under their influence. I also have never experienced any buzzing like you describe. However, the quick flashes of images you describe could be hypnogagic images, but I can't be sure as you didn't really describe what you were doing at the time. Normally hypno's occur when a person is on the verge of sleep. If you can keep your mind aware and not drifting off into dreamland as the body dozes off, you will become aware of these images flashing in your mind's eye. You also mention using pot with these experiences, which is why I'm not sure whether you are describing hypnogagic imagery or some drug induced hallucination.

If a member has a negative karma rating, it means one or more other members have found their posts to be rude or offensive in some way and have smited the member (by hitting the smite button next to the applaud button).

However, members are unable to smite the same person within 100 hours. So if someone has -28 for their karma, and the karma accumulated within 100 hours, that means 28 different members smited that person.

Does that answer your question?

No problem, I'll move it for you!

This topic has been moved to Welcome to Dreams!.

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/index.php?topic=26744.0

That is called death. I don't think it would work like that, but that's just my opinion.

I think a better solution would be to have these experiences, but then come back and live your life here the best that you can. 

That's a poignant story MW. I hope you've come to a similar peace with your loss. If you have, there are ways to visit your friend, if you are interested in phasing. If you haven't yet fully dealt with it, then wait before attempting contact. My experience has been that such grief prevents you from contacting the individual. Although, that could be different for everyone.

like how sometimes an arm or leg will do.

If you mean when a limbl falls asleep (gets the pins and needles sensation) after an awkward position, or being in the same position for too long, than no, that isn't the same thing. This sensation is caused by reduced or lack of blood flow to the limb. What Stookie and others are referring to, when describing 'body asleep' is when the entire body is fully, completely relaxed, just like when you are asleep in bed. When you do this, the mind disengages from the body (doesn't focus on it any longer) and, if you can remain conscious beyond the body falling asleep, you can then phase to wherever.

But this isn't a linguistics thread...and I'm afraid the mods will lock it if we continue to discuss things other than what the thread is about.

Those sneaky mods! Actually, we aren't quite that rigid. 

Hmm...one universal source, which begets 2 primal opposites, which further breaks apart into 5 elements. Then you have the seasonal ceremonies, probably based on astronomical times... Sounds a lot like hermetics to me, although you'll see traces of this in taoism (the one source & yin/yang), yoga (earth, air, water, fire, ether/light), wicca and various other religions.  The chinese have 5 elements as well, but they differ: fire, water, earth, wood, and metal. Those just never made sense to me, but it could be just a cultural difference. Have you done any reading/research into hermetics?

I think all religions have similarities when it comes to general concepts/ceremonies etc. Probably because they all tended to borrow certain things from each other. Just my opinion...

I wonder if it's okay to follow my own religion. I've been doing so for years and I found out it's one of the things that makes me truly happy. In practice, I'm really just what I'd call an agnostic, but I'm waiting to convert to my own religion once I've finetuned everything

If you've been following it for years, then what do you need to do "to convert"? It sounds to me like you're already committed. What else is there?

Is it wrong to believe in this? Is it wrong to educate others about it, in case they're interested in it as well?

I hate getting into the topic of right vs wrong. The buddhists have a saying: There is no right or wrong. There is only what you do. 

As far as I'm concerned, if you aren't harming anyone else with your beliefs (physically or emotionally), then you are free to follow whatever path you choose. If you doubt what you are doing is right for you, then perhaps you need to think further before committing yourself to this.

I'm curious. I was once called "schizophrenic" for following this path. I'm tired of persecution and intolerance. I want my religion to be real too, because it's very real to me.

If its real to you, then its real. Having it be 'real' to others is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what others think/believe. Doing what makes you feel fulfilled is the right thing to do for you. Unless, of course, feeling fulfilled means sacrificing virgins or something...then you need more help that we can provide! 


One last comment, why do you feel the need to advertise, for lack of a better word, your religion? Does it matter if others know about it? You've found your own path, which is great. Most muddle through life following society's expectations, never really feeling fulfilled or happy spiritually. If people ask you about it, then go ahead and share it with them. But I would question your motives for 'starting your own religion', even if you call it an 'order'. Does the idea of followers appeal to you? Are you more comfortable practicing this if you feel you aren't alone in doing so? Personally, I would worry less about how to get the word out and focus more on why you want to get the word out. I think you'll find out more about yourself you do so.

Apply some logic to the principle... say you want a can of beer (just an example) you could at this point get up and get it, this is the fastest way of getting it BUT if you creatively visualize someone handing you a beer you're vibrating in harmony with the action of someone handing you a beer and thus attracting that exact circumstance... it probly wont happen then and there but ya never know it may just spontaneously manifest as someone giving you a drink?... I hope you understand where im coming from here.

hehe...not sure how much 'logic' plays into your scenario.  What you are describing is more along the lines of the laws of attraction/manifestation, correct? Theoretically you are right. But I don't know of anyone who is actually able to manifest instantly. So, in my mind, it really isn't the same thing. Manifesting someone handing you a beer and have it actually occur several months later falls outside the realm of thought = action in my definition. It isn't an incomplete definition, it simply has a time limit on the manifestation, that's all.